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Alrighty then!

 

Its tough to debate against OSAS...........because theres like 150+ verses against OSAS.

 

You don't have to worry about that here.

So present one passage you feel teaches against OSAS, and lets discuss it (and pick the one you feel is the strongest Biblical proof that Christians can lose their salvation).

Just one, and lets thresh it out. Because usually the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) never respond to an address of their proof-text, and simply skip to the next one. So lets look at a passage you feel teaches against OSAS and examine it thoroughly, and see if you are actually presenting a passage that teaches against Eternal Security.

And I am out of time today, so will have to check in tomorrow.


God bless.

 

Okay, I am in luck to get to your reply before getting out of here.

Here are a few problems with your proof-text:

1. You are missing the distinction of the contrast between those who overcome and those who are listed who are not over-comers;

2. You are missing the fact that those who overcome are sons of God (which speaks of those who have eternal salvation);

3. You are forgetting that we are in unredeemed flesh, and suggesting that believers cannot be habitual liars;

4. You are not understanding that one does not have to be cognizant of sin in order for it to still be sin (meaning, one might be a habitual liar and not realize it, i.e., false teachers are habitual liars though they have persuaded themselves that they speak the truth);

5. You suggest that salvation is a reward for not doing these things listed in this proof-text, which stands in direct contradiction with a Biblical understanding of how one is saved to begin with.


And because I am short on time, I will leave the list on those points, and address "over-coming" from a couple passages (and this will be brief):


Revelation 3

King James Version (KJV)

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


Here is a reference to over-coming by Christ. The promise He gives is that if one over-comes, he will never be blotted out of the Book of Life. While we would also have to be straight on when one is placed in the Book of Life (whether at salvation as is popularly taught today, or at conception), we can see that a concept of overcoming and then losing one's salvation conflicts with this promise of Christ.

Secondly, let's look at another passage in which John speaks about overcoming:


1 John 5:1-5

King James Version (KJV)


1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


Overcoming is in direct relationship to, and euphemistic for...salvation itself.

That is accomplished through Regeneration...not because we stop lying. That salvation is not removed because one is a habitual liar, and we would have to see salvation lost by default for those who are erroneous in understanding and without discernment, which only makes salvation a reward even more, because it suggests that salvation is not a completed action of God, but is an ongoing process and a reward system for the works we do, or do not do.

Again, those who lie but do not realize they are lying would, according to the salvation you teach...lose their salvation just as those who intentionally lie. We do not separate those two types of liars.

Now let's look at your proof-text:


Revelation 21:6-8

King James Version (KJV)


6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Overcoming is being saved, and does not refer to progressive sanctification with a warning that one will stop being a son. There is nothing in Scripture where there is ever a mention of the reversal of regeneration. Nothing.


Revelation 21:27

King James Version (KJV)

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.


Again...we see the contrast is between those who are saved and those who are not.

And again, an understanding of the Book of Life is helpful in this discussion, because if we embrace the popular teaching that men are written into the Book of Life when they are saved, we might overlook the fact that David pleaded with God that his enemies, who were by extension the enemies of Christ...not be written with the righteous.

If we need to follow that track in order to make a complete understanding of what is in view here, I will be glad to.

But I would think, if you consider it, you would see the contradiction between Christ's promise to never blot out those who overcome with your own assertion that He will do that very thing.

So that is where I would point in regards to what I see as error on your part, in that you are not seeing that over-comers and those listed are contrasted, and that there is no concept of "If over-comers do these things then shall they be cast into Hell."

Look at it again:

Revelation 21:6-8

King James Version (KJV)


6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


We can't have over-comers both inheriting all things and...being cast into Hell.

In view is the clear presentation that those who overcome are sons of God, and the contrast is between those who believe and those who don't.

I will separate this...


8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

These are unbelievers.

And I will tell you this, in every proof-text you offer I am going to be able to show that those in view who are in danger of Hell are also unbelievers. But, its a great discussion, and I always enjoy it. I only have through tomorrow and then I am on vacation for a little while, and I am not sure I will be coming back here for a while. So, in the time I have, if you are satisfied with this response, and would like to present another, I'd be glad to look at it. I give you credit, Samuel, you did not pick one of the usual proof-texts, so that is always interesting, because I am always looking for new arguments or points in all the topics discussed among the Brethren.

And just to be clear, I do not question those of Arminian belief as to whether they are saved or not, only their doctrine. So understand I do have an open attitude, lol, about this subject. No reason we cannot discuss it as brothers.


God bless.

 

I would suggest to you that "All Israel will be saved" refers, not to everyone who is of Israel (there are numerous teachings which make it clear that not everyone of the heritage of Israel will be eternally redeemed), but to those who are saved when Christ Returns.

The reason that "All" Israel will be saved is that when God establishes His Kingdom here on earth in the Millennial Kingdom, only those born again of Israel will enter into it.

And it is clear in Romans 11 that the whole tree has not been guaranteed salvation, that is Paul's point...the natural branches were cut out because of unbelief. We also have to identify what the Tree is, and that Tree is the provision of God for relationship with Himself. When Christ states "I am the True Vine," He is contrasting that with Israel, which is the vine taken out of Egypt and planted in the land.

It is only through belief that those who were cut out will be grafted back into the provision of God, and when this happens, because all unbelievers will be destroyed...

...all Israel will be saved. And they will be the Israel that, as a Nation...believes on the Lord Jesus Christ:


Romans 11:24-27

King James Version (KJV)


24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


In that day they will come to Christ and be brought into New Covenant relationship with God...just as He promised them in the Old Testament.


God bless.

 

Is this a Free Will Baptist site that you mention? I have not read through the whole thread, so perhaps someone mentioned it already.

 

Its a lot harder to convince a person OSAS is wrong if they got sin that needs to be kept alive. Like if a person is divorced, really bad habitual sin, or abusive bully, OSAS gives a license to sin, backslider and let it slide with sin.




This first passage sets the staged. It is addressed to us who have received the faith, have knowledge of Jesus Christ, and have escaped the world of corruption. Remember the assertion is only the saved can receive faith, know Jesus Christ, we are partakers of his divine nature

2 peter 1

1Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: 2Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; 3seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. 5Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
12Therefore, I will always be ready to remind you of these things, even though you already know them, and have been established in the truth which is present with you. 13I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder, 14knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15And I will also be diligent that at any time after my departure you will be able to call these things to mind.


There is a tiny cheap shot in this passage about "forgetting his purification".......but its not what I want to focus on.

What I want to focus on this being addressed to those have received the faith. Only God can give them the faith and they have it.
Only the saved come to a knowledge of righteousness, only they can do righteous because of Christ. Only they can escape the corruption. If your not saved then you have not escaped the corruption you are still in the corruption.


2 Peter 2

20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

Here is one who had escaped because of Jesus Christ, but they FELL. They are WORST NOW then BEFORE being saved.

Its so bad they would have been BETTER OFF not knowing the way of righteousness.

Someone who has no knowledge of Jesus unsaved, they go to hell. Since when is that BETTER OFF then having KNOWN the way of righteousness?

A pig AFTER WASHING, after being CLEANED from their sin, goes back in the mud.

Its no coincidence he's using the same language from chapter prior.


I bet you can't name one person who is better off NOT knowing the way of righteousness then having known it.

Why can't you name one person? Because this was directed at people who believe in OSAS.

Everyone would argue without Jesus and being saved, it is impossible to KNOW the way of righteousness.

And if you disagree..... well who is he talking about? Name one person.

 

So you acknowledge the contrast?

It is there.

No, just pointing out the flaws in your argument.

There is nothing in your proof-text which implies that those who overcome can then be blotted from the Book of Life which then calls a clear statement of Christ into question.

Eternal Security is just a Bible Basic, my friend.

Here is the clearest statement of Eternal Security, in my view, in the entire Word of God:


Hebrews 10:14

King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


If I ask you to present the meaning of this verse...could you do that?

And this is what I would suggest, before you even try, is to familiarize yourself with the Doctrine of the Book of Hebrews, or, you may end up imposing a modern connotation to the statement, and fail to place it in the context of what the Writer (and ultimately the Holy Ghost) is teaching.

In short, those sanctified by the Blood of Christ has, forever, been made complete in regards to remission of sins. This, on an eternal level (Hebrews 9:12-15), which is contrasted to the provision of remission of sins men had through animal sacrifice.

I know you think that losing salvation is "clear" in Scripture, but I am just trying to help you understand that fundamental flaws in teaching loss of salvation. It stands in stark contrast to the very Gospel of Christ. When you challenge the basis for this view, by looking at the proof-texts, you will see that it is not so clear as you might think.

Here is one example:


Hebrews 10:26-29

King James Version (KJV)


26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


I will suggest to you that in view is not Christians losing their salvation, but another contrast between believers and unbelievers. His point is this: those who reject Christ, the New Covenant, His Sacrifice, and the Ministry of the Holy Ghost (the Comforter)...will be punished more severely than those who rejected the Covenant of Law (Moses' Law).

Both...are unbelievers.

But because so few take the time to understand the context of the first part of the Chapter, and yank this out of the context of the chapter, the Book, and Bible Doctrine as a whole, they fail to recognize the simple truth that the wilful sin is rejection of Christ.

Now wait a minute...you do teach that believers can be habitual liars?

Again, this is a works-based mentality, as it suggests that it is what we do, or don't do, by which we are saved.

We are saved by grace through faith. not saved by faith through grace.

Here is salvation, my friend:


Titus 3:4-5

King James Version (KJV)


4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Men are not saved by refraining from lying, and again...most of us will remain liars to some extent until we are redeemed from this flesh.

There is no categorizing of lying, nor making a threshold by which one is culpable for eternal punishment if he/she lies bad enough, it just takes a little white lie to be a liar.

And that is why Christ had to die for you and me...because we are helpless to save ourselves. And when we are saved, we are renewed to relationship with God through the Eternal Indwelling, and we are born again, new creatures.

But you are still going to tell a lie from time to time, and whether it is willful or inadvertent doesn't change whether it is a lie or not.


And I will point out you held the answer in your hand already:

And when you understand the contrast between those who overcome and those who do not, you will see the weakness in this argument.

And addressing the proof-texts for loss of salvation is just one part of coming to an understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We must also address the positive statements and teachings which clarify that salvation is an instantaneous event in the life of a man or woman which has everlasting result, because it is the infusion of the Life of Christ which we were born without.

Perhaps, but, not many of my antagonists think I think very clearly under any circumstances, lol.

Just trying to help you give some consideration to the basis for the position you hold, Samuel. I understand it, and do not question your salvation due to your belief n this matter, as it is a position embraced by many.

But, if you do the work, you will see that basis in light of a fuller scope of the Doctrine of the Bible. And I believe, when you fully understand the magnitude of the Gospel, you will acknowledge the weakness in trying to say that Christ will renege on His promise, and actually blot those who have overcome out of the Book of Life.


God bless.

 

I would also recommend that you pick up the context in Romans 9, for that is where Paul shifts to speaking about Israel. When we place Romans 11 in the context of all that he states in those chapters it helps us to better understand his point in Romans 11.

For example:


Romans 9

King James Version (KJV)

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:


That is who he is speaking about in Romans 11. He is referring to those who are not saved, going so far as to replicate Moses' statement here...



Exodus 32:31-33

King James Version (KJV)


31 And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.

32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.


But the truth is that no man can die for another man. No man can save another man from eternal separation, Only Christ can do that.

When we arrive in Romans 11 we should have the context of Paul's teaching in regards to his brethren by heritage, rather than the idea many impose into the chapter that in view are believers who stand at risk of being cut out of the provision of God.

He makes it very clear that unbelievers are in view:


Romans 11:19-23

King James Version (KJV)


19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.


This is not contrasting believers being cut off with believers that are not cut off, it is contrasting unbelievers and believers, and it is on a national level, not an individual level. Meaning, in view are Jews and GEntiles, not two types of believers. It is made clear that they are unbelievers, believers being grafted in because of faith.


Romans 11

King James Version (KJV)


11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,


So start in Chapter 9 and keep careful note as to who is in view. That is...Israel, and her cutting off because of unbelief.

And I am sorry not to have run into you sooner, Samuel. Just give this some thought and my hope is that the Lord will work in you mightily in your efforts as a student of the Bible. He has promised to do this, and we have but to ask of Him, and He will give the supply.


God bless.