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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Samuels, Jul 19, 2016.

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  1. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    Yes, I could indeed ... sanctification is a process.
    Several versions have "are being sanctified".

    Some Greek words have up to 40 different meanings,
    depending on the context.
    Then, all of the verb tenses need to be made clear.
    Translating from the Greek is really tough!

    Nothing really is a one-time thing.
    E.G. God's grace CAN be thrown away.
    and
    E.G. 15 NT verses teach us (hopefully) that:
    One must endure in his/her faith
    until the end of his/her life
    to be granted eternal life.
    and etc.

    People need to throw away all pre-conceived ideas,
    and approach the word of God afresh ... openly!
     
    #21 Samuels, Jul 23, 2016
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Now on that we agree.

    Did you ever consider the possibility that you are making the same mistake, just in a different direction, that you find in many who affirm OSAS?

    What I mean is that we cannot point to a time and say "there it is, that's when I believed and therefore I am secure" if our belief is no longer present. Without belief expressed through faithful obedience, not only is there no assurance of a "final salvation" (that we will be saved on "that day") but there is also no assurance that we were indeed ever numbered among those who are saved (and will be saved on "that day"). You are merely choosing one side of a counterfeit coin.

    Scripture speaks of people who believe that they were saved who were in fact "unknown" by God. It speaks of people who are discovered to "have never been among us." The Bible speaks of "testing" one's faith to see if you are truly among the chosen. But Scripture also speaks of those who will be saved "on that day" as those who are "numbered among the elect". It presents a people of God, preserved by God, of whose membership is eternal. They must endure, and they do endure. In other words, OSAS identifies a people that are saved on the Day of Judgment. If you are a member of that people, then nothing will change the fact that you are a member of those who have endured unto the end as a work of God.
     
    #22 JonC, Jul 23, 2016
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  3. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Come and see...Come to New Jersey!...:Roflmao
     
    #23 Earth Wind and Fire, Jul 26, 2016
  4. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    The main thing I want to point out is You can't KNOW the way of righteousness unless you are saved.
    The person just starts sinning with a belief in a License to sin, He is literally better off not knowing the way of righteousness.

    1 timothy 5
    8But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.


    Plenty of folks would say a unbeliever goes to hell.

    Here one is WORSE then a unbeliever. If he was never saved to begin with well he is just a unbeliever not worse. He is a BELIEVER that is worst then a unbeliever.
     
    #24 utilyan, Jul 26, 2016
  5. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Matthew 18
    21Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
    23“For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24“When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25“But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. 26“So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ 27“And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28“But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ 29“So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30“But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31“So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32“Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

    This is Directed to PETER disciple, apostle, elect.

    God is the King. The slave owed God Ten thousand Talents, That's his SINS. He could not afford it. And God says ok sell him, his wife and his children!

    He begs for mercy. "And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt."

    That means this man is FORGIVEN, SAVED, PAID by CHRIST. He no longer owes.

    "28“But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ 29“So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30“But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed."

    He is going back to sin denying love thy neighbor.

    31“So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32“Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”


    God is telling him! I FORGAVE YOU ALL DEBT.

    God hands him over to torturers! He is straight damned.

    And Jesus is telling Peter GOD is going to do the same to you! If you don't forgive.



    He went from forgiven by GOD for all sins on God's mercy, to damned by torturers.
     
    #25 utilyan, Jul 26, 2016
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You need to qualify “belief”. Unbelievers do go to Hell, but the reason is not because of unbelief (in terms of not knowing, or cognitive belief) but because of unbelief (a qualified “belief” in relation to Christ).

    The same is true of sin. The reason that the Jews could be forgiven was because they sinned out of ignorance (see Peter’s first two sermons in Acts, and forgiveness in Deuteronomy). There is sin, and then there is sinning “with a high hand”. Those who sinned "outside the Law" did violate a commandment, but they were not transgressors as the command was not given or known to them. These transgressions of the Law are spoken of as worse than sinning apart from the Law, yet the consequences remained the same. There is unbelief (a state of not believing the gospel message) and then there is unbelief (a rejection of the gospel message after being enlightened to and recognizing its power).

    Perhaps this would make an interesting topic for a thread.
     
    #26 JonC, Jul 26, 2016
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