Featured Justifying Works

Well I think your misinformed of Mans duty is to GOD first and a coward is to salvation first.

I just quoted scripture. An illiterate believes a book starts in the middle. You need to go back to Genesis.

No one reading the bible straight questions the path to salvation asking gee whats the path......and then finally a light bulb turns on in romans.

It gets turned on back in Matthew 5 the moment Jesus starts preaching, Only an idiot would think Jesus would preach the most useless stuff first.

 

None of this is true.

 

I am sure you understand that different books of the Bible serve different purposes and deal with different subjects?

If you want to understand the whole Bilble, sure start with Genesis and read to Revelation. However, if you want to understand how the children of Israel got out of Egypt you don't go to Genesis or Romans do you? No, there is as specific book in the Bible that deals with that topic - the book of Exodus!

Likewise, if you want to see the systematic Bible teaching on salvation you don't go to Genesis and start reading, you go to the books of the Bible that deal with that topic in a systematic fashion - Romans, John, Galatians.

The book of Romans and Galatians are designed to deal with the doctrine of salvation and especially the doctrine of justification. Why would one go to the book of Genesis to see what the Bible teaches in a systematic way the doctrine of justification when you have specialized books for that very topic?

However, a person would have to have a good understanding of the whole Bible to know that there are books that deal with specific topics and know which book to go to for a specific topic. You are showing you don't know the Bible sufficiently well enough to speak about it. You need to sit back and read and learn before opening your mouth and advertising to all your ignorance.

 

You didn't find the gospel of Jesus Christ till you got to romans.

Brilliant.

 

.

 

Obviously you didn't carefully read what I said or you are intentionally perverting my words. I did not say the gospel was not found prior to Romans, what I said is that every book of the Bible has a distinct purpose and theme and Romans provides the SYSTEMATIC presentation of salvation. Do you know what the word "SYTEMATIC" means?

Therefore, you don't go to Genesis and start reading the entire Bible if you want to know what the Bible teaches about salvation in a SYSTMATIC overview.

You are too proud to admit you are wrong but the more you write the more you publicly advertise your Biblical illiteracy.

 

""Do you know what the word "SYTEMATIC" means? ""

Show me bible the word "SYTEMATIC". I don't think you even spelled it right!

Start at the middle twisted version romans for a foundation.
Maybe its part of your "sytematic" to start in the middle of a book!

"Therefore, you don't go to Genesis and start reading the entire Bible if you want to know what the Bible teaches about salvation"

DUMB. From Genesis you get the fall, "SALVATION" would not be on the radar unless you get the WHOLE TRUTH.


Jesus Christ provides the HOLY COMPLETE GOSPEL IN TOTAL PERFECTION WITHOUT CONFUSION.
Jesus was clear in delivering the FOUNDATION and METHOD.


Of course those who don't have faith in Jesus Christ our lord......WOULD have to look for "MORE" beyond his holy word weasel their way to their license to sin and adulterous relationships.

 

My computer runs slow on this site for some reason and I am a fast typer but something is slowing my typing down and so it gets jumbled or leaves out letters unless I type one letter at time like I am now doing. Yes, it is spelled incorrectly.

Again, I did not say the word "systematic" is found in the scripture. I said the book of Romans is designed to provide as systematic presentation of the Biblical doctrine of salvation.

The only way you can win this debate is to twist, pervert, or misconstrue my words. Now who in the Bible is the author of that kind of dialogue and whose followers do that?

 

Bib the whole "SYTMATIC" thing was a joke, I know what you meant you spelled correctly right afterwards. You took a jab at my lack of knowledge. The joke is be consistent when you doing it.



"The only way you can win this debate is to twist, pervert, or misconstrue my words. Now who in the Bible is the author of that kind of dialogue and whose followers do that?"

Oh really?

"You are showing you don't know the Bible sufficiently well enough to speak about it."

So what?

Are you saying the bible alone is not sufficient? that your better understanding makes you proper authority?

Can I decide with the bible alone?...... thank you very much.




Jesus establishes the "system" and preaches the Gospel in its completeness.

In the Gospel(hint hint) according to Matthew Jesus says:

Matthew 7
24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25“And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”
28When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching; 29for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as their scribes.



You want the system to work on faith alone, that is completely unbiblical. Even if some fringe Christian were to argue that we are justified by what we say:

37“For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

He has more solid scripture then you do.




When Paul says:
Romans 3
9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

He's not saying his Christian standpoint, but his Jewish standpoint that charges all under sin.


28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

Here Paul is saying we are not justified by the Jewish Law he is so distinct that even the next verse he declares that if the Christian faith was not apart from the works of the law it would only be God of the Jews.

We know who the Gentiles are! They don't do the works of the Law, cause if they did they'd be JEWS!




Romans 2

14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


Hold on a second, Paul says according to my gospel did Paul just preach the gospel?
HE DID:

Romans 2

1Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.


NO EXCUSE. God has provided everyone the ability to avoid sin.

Oh the reason I sin is because God didn't get me a good kidney.

NO Bib, The reason you sin is it is YOUR FAULT.


What is going on here is an attempt to undermine the gospel with a license to sin. So like the Pharisees you can say yeah me and that guy over there are both sinners but I am a saved sinner because my status is chosen. I will get mercy for all the bad thing I will do. And when I sin well that's God's fault.

 

Take note that those whom he rejected on the day of judgment claimed him as "Lord" and as obedient to his will (Mt. 7:21-23). So the issue is what determines true obedience or sufficient righteousness. Christ defines what is sufficient righteousness or obedience to his will:


For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. - Mt 5:20


Concerning the external righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees, jesus said they were spotless externally. Like "whited" seplechures and a "clean" cup externally. They would fast three times a week and were ceremonially clean. They gave tithes, and etc. Paul said that while he was a lost Pharisee, as far as the demands of the law he was "blameless"


Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.


However, entrance into Christ's kingdom required righteousness that EXCEEDED theirs. Tell me, are you even as externally righteous as they were?


But Jesus does not leave us to guess what standard of righteous he demands to enter heaven:


Mt. 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


God has never sinned in the past, in the present or will ever sin in the future. That is God's standard for sufficient righteousness to enter heaven. - An ENTIRE LIFE of absolute sinless perfection


That is the righteousness demanded by the Law in order to be justified by it for entrance into heaven as Paul says the law reveals the righteousness of God:


Rom. 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


James also says that the law demands sinless perfection to be justified by it:


James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.


Absolute sinless perfection or to be perfect EVEN AS God is perfect is Christ's standard for what he means to "doeth the will of my father" (Mt. 7:21). This is the standard of righteousness that EXCEEDS that of the Scribes and Pharisees jesus demands to enter His kingdom. That is the righteousness that EQUALS God's - be perfect EVEN AS God is perfect - AN ENTIRE LIFE of sinless perfection "even as God IS perfect."


That is the standard God uses in Romans 2:6-15 on the day of judgment as that is the same day JESUS described in Matthew 7:21-23.


That is why Paul said "NO FLESH" would be justified by the law's standard of righteousness because the laws standard simply reveals GOD's righteousness:


ROM. 2:19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


The glory of God is his righteousness - sinless perfection - which is the standard to be righteous enough to enter heaven. Paul’s conclusion is that “there is none righteous” and “there is none good” ACCORDING TO THAT STANDARD and therefore “FOR ALL HAVE SINNED” meaning there is no fallen human sinless or can meet that standard which is “the glory of God” ALL HAVE COME SHORT of that standard.


However, those in Matthew 7:21-23 claimed “HAVE WE NOT DONE" thinking they met Christ’s standard of righteousness to enter heaven. He calls them “workers of iniquity” because his standard is “be perfect EVEN AS your Father in heaven IS perfect” and to “fail in one point” is to transgress the whole law and therefore be sinners or workers of iniquity.


So how does one obtain righteousness that EXCEEDS the best of man’s and EQUALS the best of God’s righteousness?


Rom. 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:


That is why Jesus came to earth to provide a righteousness that no man could attain to. He provided as a SUBSTITUTE for sinners. By faith his righteousness is IMPUTED to believers and their sins are IMPUTED to him:


2 Cor. 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Now, back to Mat. 7:24-27. The only difference between the one who built his house on the rock versus the one who built his house on the sand is not the house of good works (his life). What makes his house stand in the day of judgement is the foundation it is built upon. That foundation is “the rock” and Paul says that foundation is Christ and his righteousness – which is sinless:


1 Cor. 3:11 ¶ For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


The foundation upon which the other house was built was “sand” which is a MIXTURE of faith in Christ PLUS your own good works (“Lord, Lord……have we not done”). The house that stands, stands not because it has any better house, but because of THE ROCK on which it is built.

Notice that Paul says in 1 Cor. 3:12 that we can build “UPON” that foundation both good and bad works and the day of judgement will try or judge the sort of works they are. However, our works do not decide heaven or hell but only whether receive “a reward” or not. “if any man’s work shall burned he shall suffer loss (of rewards) BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED” why? Because of the foundation not because of what is built upon that foundation. The righteousness of Christ is what exceeds the best righteousness of men and equals the righteousness of God and it is received by faith alone as our own works NEVER are as “perfect, EVEN as our Father in heaven IS perfect”

Tell me, where are YOU going to obtain AN ENTIRE LIFE equal to God's own righteousness? Your life has already "come short" of that standard. I have obtained it BY FAITH ALONE in Christ providing his life IN THE PLACE OF mine.

 

God is a great teacher.

Exceeding Pharisees is a piece of cake.


Jesus Christ is my priority, Salvation is not.

I give joyful praise to bring my neck to the chopping block, I love the Lord.

That sense of dread you have is a insult to God along with your coward based priorities.

Its like you would be surprised God can teach anyone to tie their shoe.


You edit the scripture to fit your license to sin theology.

The entire verse is :

21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.



The good works is Love God and Love Neighbor.


You preach against Loving God. You said:

"The foundation upon which the other house was built was “sand” which is a MIXTURE of faith in Christ PLUS your own good works"

If Loving God is wrong, I don't want to be right. You can send me to hell twice, I will love the Lord.
You are still waiting for your victory tomorrow. My heaven starts lives and dies on the Love of God.


You have the love of God right in your hand, and you looked at it and thought meh.....maybe I can buy paradise with this. It would look like trash to someone who banks on their wrong idea of God then to what God truly is.

You need to repent have that change of mind to look at the love of God. You are selling short the greatest thing about you.


Jesus Christ set for as our example, You didn't see him grovel to others for sake of paradise. His priority was always God, not a selfish seeking of self salvation.


Some people when they see a attractive woman will trip fumble and fall, sometimes its even worth it, you can become red with shyness, you can be absolutely terrified.

Let me tell you that has nothing on the love of God. All the win of your existence is right there. And yet God loves you more then you love God.

I can walk up to someone who loves God and say "hey buddy! we are taking away your salvation" and they reply "ok sure thing, thanks" they brush me away like a fly.

The absolute priority of Christianity is love. Your understanding of God is so hideous I'm not surprised you value salvation above God and thinking loving God is only a means to an end.

"oh look at this fellah thinks works and loving God is going to get him a heaven"

Its like over your head, when do you snap out of it!?

 

My oh my, God help your poor deluded soul.

It is that very phrase you placed in bold that my entire post was explaining in its context what it takes to do "the will" of God. It takes to be perfect EVEN AS the Father IS perfect. You are like those Christ rejected who mixed faith in the "Lord, Lord" with "have we not done" which mixture is the SAND foundation.

It is only once you have been created in righteousness and true holiness (Col. 3:10) that you can do "good works" acceptable to God (Eph. 2:10).

You are living in delusion and no one can help you but God.

 

"You are living in delusion and no one can help you but God"

You so sure why don't you act like it. I made that point against your inconsistent theology.

You should be praying to God. You won't see me whining at you if I'm convinced there is something on Gods part lacking.


Loving God and neighbor has always been the goal.


Jesus says: everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them.

The words start from the beginning of the sermon of the mount Matthew 5. With plenty of do's and don'ts.

If doing what Jesus says to do was unnecessary. He wouldn't have mentioned it.

Jesus could went up the mount say to everyone. GOD will give some of you folks a new heart, cross your fingers!

That's not what happened. The commands he says applies to everyone.

Matthew 21
28“But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go work today in the vineyard.’ 29“And he answered, ‘I will not’; but afterward he regretted it and went. 30“The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, ‘I will, sir’; but he did not go. 31“Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.

Clear cut and perfect word of the lord.

 

Bib you got a BRAND NEW CAR from GOD MANUFACTURING.

It came with no engine has no heart. Your happy and get in the car turn the key nothing happens. You hit the dash board and kick the car, "stupid car".

So your buddy comes walking down the street. "Whats wrong Bib?" you tell him "car won't go".

"It needs an engine and it wont drive itself to the garage to get it"

"well it needs an engine to do that"

So your friend says "well there is nothing the car CAN DO to get an engine right?" you say "yeeeaaahh"

"and there is nothing we CAN DO to put a engine in it" you say "yeeeeaaahhh"


"So why don't we call God and have him put a engine in it"

Your eyes widen like a deer in headlights........a light bulb goes on inside...........and you answer "ask God to install an engine? that's about the dumbest IDEA I have EVER HEARD!"


That perfectly sums up my criticism of your theology. Now if I am misrepresenting the position maybe you can rewrite the story.

 

Adam all of human nature exists in you. here is a brand new car and everything works fine, now don't mess it up. Adam does not check oil or water and burns up the engine. "Adam" means ALL MANKIND existing in Adam. Thus that car is passed down to his children as it is their car also because they acted "in Adam" burning it up and so it is their own fault. THat is what Romasn 5:12-19 teaches.

 

You gave half the story and no solution.

Romans
15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

How much more did the grace of God abound? If you can apply the transgression to all mankind being a one. To who would a TWO apply to if its more abundant then a one?


Romans 5
18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

All men are justified in like manner. If there was no similarity he would has said UNLIKE how all men are condemned by the result of one transgression the one act of righteousness resulted in the justification of only a few.


The car passed down to his children is the same Jesus picked up. Even the genealogies try to convey Jesus is of the same blood line, Not alien.

100% Human and the standard example of what it is to be human.

 

The solution is not "In Adam" but "in Christ" and the only way into Christ is by a CREATIVE act of God which excludes our works:

"not of works lest any man should boast, For we are HIS WORKmanship CREATED in Christ Jesus UNTO good works" - Eph. 2:10

So you believe in universal salvation and no one goes to Gehenna (Rev. 20:12-15)??????

He does qualify it in ROmans 5:17:


for if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

It must be received and how it is received is "by faith" which is the work and gift of God (JN. 6:29; Eph. 2:8; Jn. 6:44).

No, it is not. He had no HUMAN father, and thus no SIN NATURE. The sin came through Adam, the man not due to Eve. This sin nature is "passed down" through the MAN and that is why jesus was born by VIRGIN birth.

 

I might argue there is no such thing as sin nature, its unnatural that's why its called sin.

Sin is contrary to nature of any of God's creation.

Scared, corrupted, wounded, not sin nature. The error here is your giving sin a wholeness or holiness.


For example God himself saw that every bird in the sky is good. Jesus says you are a lot more worth then birds.


I believe if everyone followed God's desire as he directly indicated by command we would have a universal salvation. So God wants universal salvation and some refuse it.

I also believe in God's divine intelligence, omnipotence and efficiency, rather then any divine stupidity.

He could for example at a blink of an eye eliminate all evil, just as by force have everything operate at a sinless state. And his efficiency is certainly capable of this result much quicker then your flawed drawn out scenario.

He could work a system where he picks and chooses.

I challenge that his system is wiser then this, he sums it up better himself when he says:

Matthew 5
46“For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

It seems to me Jesus is giving a slight "hyperbole"? Is he not insinuating a lesser value of loving those who love you?

This is God's own perfect perspective which he wants imitated.

This is why there is more rejoicing at the repentance of a sinner.

The omnipotence of God, his will, he can force you never to sin again right now, at a snap of a finger.

But I can see the sense of a golf clap, pat himself on the back, there is no accomplishment.

He doesn't even forgive anyone he installs the repentance himself and he is still getting paid.

The person never repents themselves.

When you owe 100$ and I pay the money for you, Your debt was not forgiven it was paid off.


That's why I love pointing out 2 Corinthians 5

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

This is a notch better then not guilty. It saying not imputing, which means the charges dropped maybe even charges never directed towards the party.

I don't know if you can wrap your head around a mercy that out-does forgiveness, a perfect justice that out-does mercy or a love that out-does justice

 

Rom. 7:14 ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

Sure all of which points to not being human nature.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Jesus Christ 100% Human. What is required?

Might say standard, they come with 2 Lungs, they come with one heart.

You say SIN NATURE. I would disagree. Sin is UN-Natural. Abomination.

You would say Jesus has Sin nature. Therefore sinner to even qualify for human.

Or Jesus is not human, The sacrifice and union void.


Man is damaged, been corrupted, enslaved, I can accept these, But "SIN NATURE" again its someone who has not thought through what they are saying.

I see this domino effect of stupidity.

If God can count to 5, then mankind cannot.

That there is no fundamental relation between man and God, despite Jesus being Man.

To preach that God is a horrible teacher, can't teach goodness or anyone to be good. This is a result of FALSE HUMILITY which is the worst of vanity and pride finally pointing its suicidal guns at God after itself.

If I asked Can God teach anyone or have the ability to teach them to no longer sin? The answer I get is no God is too stupid to accomplish this. Because my ability of ignorance is greater then omnipotence of God's correction.


SIN is UN-NATURAL.