Featured OT. Saints....In Heaven or in Limbo?

Answer me these questions for me if you would please.

1. Define the spiritual state of death with regard to man's ability, relationship and response to God and the things of God. Is this state described by the words "in the flesh"? Does one have to be baptized in order to be "in the flesh" or is it a matter of birth or being born of the flesh?

2. Is this description applicable only to post-Pentecost fallen human beings "in Adam" or all fallen human beings "in Adam"?

3. Can there exist AT ANY POINT IN TIME a third category of mankind that is neither "in Adam" or "in Christ" nor "in the flesh" or "in the Spirit?

4. Is there any kind of salvation from this problem OUTSIDE of Christ or is the only salvation solution to this problem "in Christ"?

5. Did pre-Pentecost saints remain "in Adam" and "in the flesh" throughout their life time, and if so, how were they then able to walk with God, walk by faith and please God OUTSIDE of Christ,"in the flesh"? If they could please God in the state of spiritual death and "in the flesh" why then can't we (Rom. 8:8-9)?

6. If redemptive benefits of the cross could not be applied prior to the cross then explain how pre-cross people could be called "saints"? could walk with God? could please God, could serve God willingly? Could understand the things of God as those listed in Hebrews 11?



Please also answer these questions if you will?

1. What do the words "set in" mean? For example, if I said the first thing "set in" my car was the luggage, and the second thing "set in" my car was the flowers? Could you claim that this language really meant that the flowers were really "set in" the car before the luggage?

2. Can the church body of Christ exist previous to its own "foundation" and/or previous to the baptism in the Spirit as defined as the means for placing people into that body?

3. At what point in time were the Old Testament Saints placed "in Christ" and/or "the body of Christ?

a. At the point of faith in the gospel?
b. At their death
c. At the resurrection of Christ?
d. At Pentecost?
e. At the resurrection and second coming of Christ?
d. Never?

 

What I think, according to my understanding of the word of God. I am going to pick one, David!

I think David died and saw corruption. I think because he was writing of his seed, Christ, and not himself, his soul has been left in Hades, from the time the spirit of him, which was the life of his flesh, his earthly tabernacle, making him a living soul, returned to God who had given it.

I think when Jesus Christ shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: The soul David will be raised from Hades, in the flesh, incorruptible, quickened by the Spirit, to ever be with the Lord.

Because he was chosen of God, to inherit, the selfsame thing of which his seed, Christ, the Son, the heir of God, the Word made flesh, John 1:14 Heb 1:1,2 Rom 8:17 inherited. 1 Cor 4 and 5.

1 Thes 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

David certainly did not believe that about himself. He believed that when he physically died his soul would go directly to heaven:

Psa. 73:23 Nevertheless I am continually with Thee; Thou hast held me by my right hand.
24 Thou shalt guide me with Thy counsel and afterward receive me to glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but Thee? And there is none upon earth that I desire beside Thee.

Notice he only acknowledges two locations where he will be "continually with" God (1) "in heaven" (2) upon earth. Second, He is continually with God and that is manifest "upon earth" by the counsel of God guiding him, and "afterward receive me into glory" which he defines as "in heaven." In Psalm 139 David only acknolweges two spiritual extremes "heaven' and "hell" no purgatory or intermediate place. Hades is properly THE PLACE OF THE DEAD - meaning, upper sheol is THE PLACE OF THE DEAD BODY - THE GRAVE while lowest sheol is THE PLACE OF THE DEAD SPIRITS - HELL. All the bodies of both saved and lost go to THE PLACE OF THE DEAD BODIES - THE GRAVE but the spirits of the saved never ever go to THE PLACE OF THE DEAD SPIRITS as David explicitly states that God redeemed his soul from lowest sheol and only the wicked go there.

De 32:22 For a fire is kindled in my anger, and shall burn to the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Ps 86:13 For great is your mercy toward me: and you have delivered my soul from the lowest hell.


Second, death does not destroy the soul - Mt. 10:28 but only destroys the body

Third, the only thing of man that sees "corruption" is the body - 1 Cor. 15:52-55.

Fourth, it is the corrupted body in the grave that was still on earth which Peter refers to and which will rise in the resurrection not his soul.

 

Please answer each question specifically instead of providing generalities about what you believe. I want specific answers for each specific question. And if you won't do that, then we both know why don't we?

 

Until you make some definitive answers to these definitive questions nothing will be accomplished. We will see what you really believe when you give definitive answers.

 

Answer me these questions for me if you would please.

1. Define the spiritual state of death with regard to man's ability, relationship and response to God and the things of God. Is this state described by the words "in the flesh"? Does one have to be baptized in order to be "in the flesh" or is it a matter of birth or being born of the flesh?

2. Is this description applicable only to post-Pentecost fallen human beings "in Adam" or all fallen human beings "in Adam"?

3. Can there exist AT ANY POINT IN TIME a third category of mankind that is neither "in Adam" or "in Christ" nor "in the flesh" or "in the Spirit?

4. Is there any kind of salvation from this problem OUTSIDE of Christ or is the only salvation solution to this problem "in Christ"?

5. Did pre-Pentecost saints remain "in Adam" and "in the flesh" throughout their life time, and if so, how were they then able to walk with God, walk by faith and please God OUTSIDE of Christ,"in the flesh"? If they could please God in the state of spiritual death and "in the flesh" why then can't we (Rom. 8:8-9)?

6. If redemptive benefits of the cross could not be applied prior to the cross then explain how pre-cross people could be called "saints"? could walk with God? could please God, could serve God willingly? Could understand the things of God as those listed in Hebrews 11?



Please also answer these questions if you will?

1. What do the words "set in" mean? For example, if I said the first thing "set in" my car was the luggage, and the second thing "set in" my car was the flowers? Could you claim that this language really meant that the flowers were really "set in" the car before the luggage?

2. Can the church body of Christ exist previous to its own "foundation" and/or previous to the baptism in the Spirit as defined as the means for placing people into that body?

3. At what point in time were the Old Testament Saints placed "in Christ" and/or "the body of Christ?

a. At the point of faith in the gospel?
b. At their death
c. At the resurrection of Christ?
d. At Pentecost?
e. At the resurrection and second coming of Christ?
d. Never?

 

I think tat they are in Heaven now, bu will be glorified to be here on eath when Jesu returns, and NTsaints in Heaven going back and forth!

 

I asked for specific answers and what do I get? A mix of specific and general answers. With regard to all questions that you dare not answer, I got general or no answers at all. For example these questions you did not dare give a direct specific answer:

1. What do the words "set in" mean? For example, if I said the first thing "set in" my car was the luggage, and the second thing "set in" my car was the flowers? Could you claim that this language really meant that the flowers were really "set in" the car before the luggage?

2. Can the church body of Christ exist previous to its own "foundation" and/or previous to the baptism in the Spirit as defined as the means for placing people into that body?

1 Cor.12:28 does not speak about what is the first MESSAGE to be set in the church but what was the first GIFTED MAN to be set in the church. I asked you what do the words "set in" mean? No direct answer. Instead, you pervert the text and try to READ INTO the text the idea that what was set in first was MESSIANIC PROPHECIES or the GOSPEL or some other non-sense rather than admitting it clearly and unambiguously and explicitly states apostles were "SET IN" the church first thus annihilating your whole doctrine in one swift blow!

So as long as you play this kind of games with scripture there is no sense to even continue this conversation.

 

Yes, I have! I said they went directly to heaven and I gave David with David's own words to prove that.

They are non-physical invisible spirits. Can spirits be assembled or do they simply exist in a spiritual state, who knows?

The departed spirits of God's family are in heaven.

First, there is no "if" about it as Ephesians 2:1-10 explicitly teaches we are "created" in Christ by the act of quickening. You have never dealt with this text in any exegetical fashion to prove I am wrong and until you do it repudiates your whole position.

Second, they are not different - they are all equally REGENERATED spirits and all are equally waiting for the day of judgement to be rewarded according to their works. Eternal positions, rank of inheritance, eternal home (on redeemed earth or in city) are determined at judgment not presently.

You did not keep your end of this agreement as you avoided giving DEFINITIVE ANSWERS to every question that gave your theory a problem.

 

In the New Testament, Zion is described as the source of COMMON NEW BIRTH or as Paul puts it "the MOTHER of us all" as it is where God now resides and we are "born OF GOD." Therefore, whether, we are Jews or Gentiles, bond or free, male or female" we are spiritually one FAMILY "in Christ" BY NEW BIRTH. The baptism in the Spirit has NOTHING to do with this at all.

You don't read too good do you? In 1 Cor. 12:28 is not about Old Testament prophecies or Old Testament prophets but rather about the divine order as to what SPIRITUAL GIFTED MEN were FIRST "set in" the church. The issue is not about what MESSAGE was first "set in" the church but what GIFTED MAN was first set in the church. Of course you won't recognize what the text actually says and can't as it completely repudiates your whole universal invisible church theory that you do believe in (while claiming you don't) as all the above questions in this post and your last post demand that theory.

I have answered every question fully and directly and yet you still won't. Why? Don't say you have because that would be telling an untruth. Don't say you have "but you just don't like the answers" as that would be telling another untruth.

 

Like Martin, it is obvious that this is a futile discussion for one plain reason. Neither one of you will accept careful exegesis of pivotal definitive scripture that determine the veracity of your positions. In your case, you choose to READ INTO Ephesians 2:20 and 1 Cor. 12:28 what they do not say and completely ignore what they do say. You completely refuse to respond to exegetical based evidence against your position, like Ephesians 2:1-10. You completely refuse to deal with expository and exegetical based characteristics of the baptism in the Spirit or your own view of it when consistently carried out with other fundamental Biblical truths. Of course when treating every pivotal text in such a manner, ones position cannot be refuted as one simply uses scripture like putty in their hands to make it mean whatever they want it to mean. I deal with scripture directly and exegetically regardless of the text. You brethren don't. This ends my discussion with you on this subject as it is futile to discuss scripture when the other party does not adhere to common basic rules of hermeneutics. However, this will not end my discussion on these issues with others who at least have the courtesy to deal with what the scriptures actually say in sound exegetical or expository fashion.

 

One final clarification for other reads. Redemption in time for pre-cross saints was due to PROMISE based upon the everlasting covenant. God exists outside of time in an eternal present ("I AM") and therefore the cross is an eternal present reality with him. Therefore, he can apply its benefits at any point in time based upon eternal purpose and promise that it will occur when promised. All saints before Pentecost received redemptive benefits in time based upon God's promise, as His word of promise could not be thwarted. When the cross occurred in time it justified God's application based on promise (Rom. 3:24-26).

That means no one was actually "in Christ" in any other sense than by divine purpose or intent before the world began as the application of His purpose occurred in time (Isa. 46:9-11).

Iconoclast argues that like the cross which occurred ONCE FOR ALL AS A COMPLETED ACTION in time but was applied to all the elect during their own lifetime prior to the cross, so the baptism in the Spirit OCCURRED ONCE FOR ALL AS A COMPLETED ACTION in time but was applied to all the elect during their own life time prior to Pentecost. Note that as an ACTION neither is repeatable in time as both are referred to in scriptures as COMPLETED ACTIONS in a specified point in time.

However, here is the fly in his theological ointment. The fact that both the cross and the baptism in the Spirit were completed actions in time, demonstrate they cannot be REPEATED ACTIONS from Genesis to Revelation. Meaning, the cross can be applied to each elect without Christ being recrucified as an action at the point in time of the salvation of each elect. The cross as a one time completed action simply provided the LEGAL basis for salvation received through faith.

However, in direct contrast, the baptism in the Spirit as it is defined by Iconoclast and all Universal Invisible church advocates must be a REPEATABLE ACTION with each elect at the point of being saved, thus contradicting it as a COMPLETED ACTION in time. It must be, because they define it as the ACT at the point of salvation when the indivdual is being removed from the "in Adam" spiritual state of condemnation to the "in Christ" spiritual state of salvation, and since all the elect are "in Adam" UP TO THE POINT of being saved, then such a definition, demands the ACT of immersion occur at THAT POINT IN TIME in order to remove that indiviudal from his "in Adam" to his "in Christ" position of salvation.

So, the Big Church view of the baptism in the Spirit will not parallel with the cross as a completed action in time. However, my view will parallel with the cross as a completed action in time. As it can be exegetically proven to be specifically applied to only water immersed believers (Mt. 3:11; Acts 1:5) who would receive this baptism in a specified place ("in Jerusalem") at a specified time "not many days hence....on Pentecost" as a specified body ("in one accord in one place") as a non-repeatable action upon the all Jewish ekklesia. The place was specified because its design was to contrast the new public "house of God" made without stones as the new authenticated "house of God" rather than the temple at Jerusalem. Without this act no Jew would forsake the temple as the house of God as the immersion in the Spirit was the divine authentication that identified the public house of worship for God's people.