OT. Saints....In Heaven or in Limbo?

[Iconoclast]

Maclaren;
For, says my text, ‘Ye are come,’ not ‘Ye shall come.’ The humblest life may be in touch with the grandest realities in the universe, and need not wait for death to draw aside the separating curtain in order to be in the presence of God and in the heavenly Jerusalem.How are these things brought to us? By the revelation of God in Christ. How are we brought to them? By faith in that revelation.
So every believing life, howsoever encompassed by flesh and sense, can thrust, as it were, a hand through the veil, and grasp the realities beyond. The scene described in the first words of my text may verily be the platform on which our lives are lived, howsoever in outward form they may be passed on this low earth; and the companions, which the second part of our text discloses, may verily be our companions, though we ‘wander lonely as a cloud,’ or seem to be surrounded by far less noble society. By faith we are come to the unseen realities which are come to us by the revelation of God in Christ. ‘Ye are come unto Mount Zion.’Now, looking generally at these words, they give us just two things - the scene and the companions of the Christian life. The remainder of the passage will occupy us on future occasions, but for the present I confine myself to the words which I have read. And I shall best deal with them, I think, if I simply follow that division into which they naturally fall, and ask you to note, first, where faith lives, and, second, with whom faith lives.I. First, then, where faith lives.‘Ye are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.’

 

[The Biblicist]

The Biblicist,


I ignored it for good reasons

no.....but now it is you who speak in universal terms,lol...the church???is there only one local church now?



There are thousands of local churches on earth. In heaven there are redeemed persons, and angelic beings.........they are assembled in ONE PLACE.
They are constantly being harvested from earth into heaven until the last day.


yes



Those already saved yes, some are not saved yet, some are not born yet.


During prayer and worship they enter into the Holy place....their physical body does not go there. If you travel to Europe but phone your wife...do you commune with her even though there is some distance in between?
If you are in the same room with your wife, and lose your eyesight....are you still with her...?
What if both of you lose eyesight? does that change that you are with her?
Physical sight is not the only measure.
Angels are present with us and we do not see them...does that mean they are not present with us?


okay...does this family consist of every departed saint?

,
okay....so...family is everyone.....

this assembled family....as it assembles[ecclesia]....does NOT constitute an eternal Church, but rather...it is something else now???
I did not say...NT. Church.....but I did say...Eternal Church.....the True Zion and Jerusalem?

You speak of Zion and Jerusalem as only a place.....it is more than that;
mt henry;



JFB;




You are saying....there is no assembly in heaven? Does it have to be the NT>assembly that we find on earth? There can never be a future assembly?

You have made yourself crystal clear. You believe in TWO different kinds of churches instead of one kind - the NT kind. You have what you call (but the Bible nowhere calls) the "eternal church" in heaven and a completely different kind on earth. When I say "the church" on earth in the singular, I am using the common ordinary usage of ekklesia in its abstract institutional sense which has no reality apart from concreted congregations - all ONE in KIND. You are a universal invisible church advocate as anyone can clearly see by your TWO PRESENT church model.

Not every group of beleivers that assembles on earth or in heaven is the NT ekklesia. The NT ekklesia has distinctive and essential characteristics that separate it from any other kind of assembly on earth or in heaven. The assembling of spirits in heaven is not a NT ekklesia in any sense of the term. It has no ordinances, no officers, no mission, no disciplinary requirements but these are the essential requirements of the ONE kind of church found in the pages of the NT.

The FAMILY gathers in heaven assembled as FAMILY members but nothing more until after the judgement when from among the family members the bride is composed and presented while other family members live OUTSIDE on the NEW EARTH (Rev.21:24).

I had intended to drop this discussion as we have no common ground but I continued to respond. There is now nothing more worth responding to.

 

[Iconoclast]

The Biblicist,

You have made yourself crystal clear.

Perhaps to everyone but you.

You believe in TWO different kinds of churches instead of one kind - the NT kind.

You still do not get it. If you answered my questions like I answered yours, you might get it.

So are you saying the NT.assembly is the only assembly scripture speaks of.?

You have what you call (but the Bible nowhere calls) the "eternal church"

Does the assembly have an expiration date, or is it eternal?

in heaven and a completely different kind on earth.

You have spoken of different assemblies yourself....
Did saints assemble in the tabernacle?, the temple? the nt church?, the heavenly Zion and Jerusalem.
You and your theology has no answer for it so you try and discredit what I say.....it is not going to fly my friend.

When I say "the church" on earth in the singular, I am using the common ordinary usage of ekklesia in its abstract institutional sense which has no reality apart from concreted congregations - all ONE in KIND.

according to your narrow definition...it is an assembly of people called out by God.....not abstract...quite real and actual persons called out of the world, called to be saints....

You are a universal invisible church advocate as anyone can clearly see by your TWO PRESENT church model.

Your complete lack of integration of the OT. prophecies of Zion and Jerusalem leave you bankrupt as to offering a proper explanation...so instead for the 9th time you try and stuff me in your little UIC box because you can answer to that, but not what I actually offer.
Do not think this goes unnoticed as you do not answer to what is offered, but go back and repeat your UIV defense which I have shown to be faulty.

Not every group of beleivers that assembles on earth or in heaven is the NT ekklesia.

Oh....you think???

The NT ekklesia has distinctive and essential characteristics that separate it from any other kind of assembly on earth or in heaven.

So now...can you answer the simple questions I asked you?
Does it have an expiration day? Perhaps the last day?

If you admit it does.....then what would you call the assembly in Heaven?
It is an assembly...I call it the eternal assembly as I do not see where it expires. Do you?

The assembling of spirits in heaven is not a NT ekklesia in any sense of the term

.

Nevertheless it assembles, correct.....that is what I have asked you....The Nt assembly is for this age.....it expires, yet the saints are eternal and will assemble throughout eternity. What is that assembly[ecclesia]?
You said those in heaven...are family.....so this assembly of family members is called what? Eternal Family Church? Family of just men made perfect assembly? Family of assembling Spirits?

It has no ordinances, no officers, no mission, no disciplinary requirements but these are the essential requirements of the ONE kind of church found in the pages of the NT.

I am thinking we will find that out when we get there.

The FAMILY gathers in heaven assembled as FAMILY members but nothing more until after the judgement when from among the family members the bride is composed and presented while other family members live OUTSIDE on the NEW EARTH (Rev.21:24).

So you have equally regenerated saints....all In Saving Union with Jesus, but...some are the bride and some are not....a class system...In Christ???

I had intended to drop this discussion as we have no common ground but I continued to respond. There is now nothing more worth responding to.

You finally said what I thought you were saying....That is all your theology will allow you to say...no continuity with OT. Promises...
No...there is some common ground, then there is what I offer and you deny. Then there is what you offer and I deny.

 

[The Biblicist]

It is wearisome dealing with your misconceptions. You ask about an expiration date? Have you ever purchased a gallon of milk? It has an expiration date. Beyond that expiration date it is still milk, only soured milk. The church has an expiration date for its present condition but beyond the expiration date it is still the same church only glorified.

You have no concept of what "abstract institutional" usage of nouns mean. The abstract use is primarily used for instruction in a classroom or in an epistle or in a pulpit. It has no reality apart from a concrete cases. However, it is a common use of nouns so that you can speak objectively about something without specifing a certain geographcial concrete application. The generic use of nouns is one form of abstract use which is merely the singular used instead of the plural but inclusive of all within that kind.

Go read my article on the abstract institutional use of nouns on the forum. I have gone as far as I want in this discussion as it is futile as we have no common ground of authority. Yours is the last word.

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you have any scripture that shows this?
Where are Nt. saints in heaven? When OT saints are on the earth?
How is there a resurrection here, when Jesus said it would be the last day?
jn5;


24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

jn6;
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rapture is resurrection ofte NT saints, Second Coming for OT saints, as they rule here with Jesus

 

[Iconoclast]

It is wearisome dealing with your misconceptions. You ask about an expiration date? Have you ever purchased a gallon of milk? It has an expiration date. Beyond that expiration date it is still milk, only soured milk. The church has an expiration date for its present condition but beyond the expiration date it is still the same church only glorified.

You have no concept of what "abstract institutional" usage of nouns mean. The abstract use is primarily used for instruction in a classroom or in an epistle or in a pulpit. It has no reality apart from a concrete cases. However, it is a common use of nouns so that you can speak objectively about something without specifing a certain geographcial concrete application. The generic use of nouns is one form of abstract use which is merely the singular used instead of the plural but inclusive of all within that kind.

Go read my article on the abstract institutional use of nouns on the forum. I have gone as far as I want in this discussion as it is futile as we have no common ground of authority. Yours is the last word.

B.
I am thankful for your participation and the instruction that you have offered here.I found it helpful and it is forcing me to re-examine my understanding of these truths.
I agree with most of what you offered.concerning the NT. Church.
I have not heard anyone develop the thought of family/household in the way you have.That would be why I questioned it several times.
I could side more with this view....if it integrated the many promises made to Zion and Jerusalem ,and what it means to NT.saints both now and in the future.
As it stands.....it looks like it bypasses all of the root promises.
You are focused in on defending the proposition of local church only here and now.
I believe I am taking more of a panoramic view of God's redemptive design that integrates all the prophecies so we are posting past each other to some extent.
Thanks for your thoughts, the links, and the challenges .

 

[Iconoclast]

Rapture is resurrection ofte NT saints, Second Coming for OT saints, as they rule here with Jesus

This still does not resemble scripture at all
Kyred...does this look like scripture to you?
When someone posts scripture they usually put numbers in front of it so others can look it up.
Try that Y. 1......I do not know what you are speaking about otherwise.

 

[Yeshua1]

This still does not resemble scripture at all
Kyred...does this look like scripture to you?
When someone posts scripture they usually put numbers in front of it so others can look it up.
Try that Y. 1......I do not know what you are speaking about otherwise.

You dont Thessolonians in your bible then, nor Revelation 20?

 

[Iconoclast]

You dont Thessolonians in your bible then, nor Revelation 20?

Do you have spell check on your phone?

What do you think those books say about this?

 

[The Biblicist]

B.
I am thankful for your participation and the instruction that you have offered here.I found it helpful and it is forcing me to re-examine my understanding of these truths.
I agree with most of what you offered.concerning the NT. Church.
I have not heard anyone develop the thought of family/household in the way you have.That would be why I questioned it several times.
I could side more with this view....if it integrated the many promises made to Zion and Jerusalem ,and what it means to NT.saints both now and in the future.
As it stands.....it looks like it bypasses all of the root promises.
You are focused in on defending the proposition of local church only here and now.
I believe I am taking more of a panoramic view of God's redemptive design that integrates all the prophecies so we are posting past each other to some extent.
Thanks for your thoughts, the links, and the challenges .

I don't know how you think that I have avoided the OT references to Zion and Jerusalem? Jerusalem was the capital city of Israel and within Jerusalem on mount zion the temple was located. The people of god populated the whole land of Israel. They were not confined within Jerusalem. The city was REPRESENTATIVE of the whole kingdom of Israel. The King and his government along with the Temple was located in Jerusalem. In the new heaven and earth there are God's people dwelling in the land outside of the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21;24) and inside there is the King and his Bride. The New Jerusalem is the capital of the new earth and the kingdom outside of the city on the new world..

Now, the ekklesia of Christ is the REPRESENTATIVE of the kingdom of God on earth. That is where you see the visible rule of God being manifested in visible submission to God's public ordinances and preaching of His word in public worship. However, there are family members existing outside his representative body.

 

[Iconoclast]

I must sleep.now, but I will develop this looking at portions from isa59-Isa 62.....to start with..tomorrow . ..
We see promises made to the Elect remnant and Gentiles coming in,mingled with portions quoted from lk4, Romans 9-11,eph6.....that were.not fulfilled to the earthly Zion and Jerusalem . men are called priests of God, a city, etc
There are many themes that come into play as that which was done it type in the OT.....is fulfilled in the NT.

 

[kyredneck]

how do you see all who have departed, both Ot.and nt.?

9 After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 and they cry with a great voice, saying, Salvation unto our God who sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb. Rev 7

I believe they are in heaven now. What do you believe?

Ditto.

 

[kyredneck]

Kyred...does this look like scripture to you?

Lol, that's why I thought it funny for you to ask him for scripture a few posts back, we both know the history, he quotes from the Dispy book of fairy tales but rarely from the Book of truth.

 

[The Biblicist]

I must sleep.now, but I will develop this looking at portions from isa59-Isa 62.....to start with..tomorrow . ..
We see promises made to the Elect remnant and Gentiles coming in,mingled with portions quoted from lk4, Romans 9-11,eph6.....that were.not fulfilled to the earthly Zion and Jerusalem . men are called priests of God, a city, etc
There are many themes that come into play as that which was done it type in the OT.....is fulfilled in the NT.

Icon, the New Testament provides the proper interpretation on the Old,not vica versa. Your approach to the church is precisely the approach taken by Roman Catholicism to prove their doctrine of the church. They interpet the New Testament by the Old Testament and that is how they get the idea of "priests" and infant baptism, etc.

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon, the New Testament provides the proper interpretation on the Old,not vica versa. Your approach to the church is precisely the approach taken by Roman Catholicism to prove their doctrine of the church. They interpet the New Testament by the Old Testament and that is how they get the idea of "priests" and infant baptism, etc.

I understand the basis of your criticism . ....but I do not think it is so here.
B the reason I see it as different is in part Jesus teaching in Lk 24, along with Hebrews 9:1,2.....10......and vs 23.....
We agree the tabernacle and temple have performed their ordained function.....and now on earth.....we have the local church......
I view the local church different from them and superior . ...for all the "better" things Hebrews speaks to.
When I get online after my morning deliveries I will offer where I believe your view while solid on the local church........neglects the full import of the OT. root promises.
What I will try to show is not only was the "church" spoken of under the term Zion and Jerusalem.....but that clearly what was misunderstood was that the fulfillment will not be on the physical earth, but rather the Jerusalem which is above as part of the New Exodus In Christ.......leading to what I refer to as the eternal church.....the eternal assembly described in Hebrews.

 

[The Biblicist]

I understand the basis of your criticism . ....but I do not think it is so here.
B the reason I see it as different is in part Jesus teaching in Lk 24, along with Hebrews 9:1,2.....10......and vs 23.....
We agree the tabernacle and temple have performed their ordained function.....and now on earth.....we have the local church......
I view the local church different from them and superior . ...for all the "better" things Hebrews speaks to.
When I get online after my morning deliveries I will offer where I believe your view while solid on the local church........neglects the full import of the OT. root promises.
What I will try to show is not only was the "church" spoken of under the term Zion and Jerusalem.....but that clearly what was misunderstood was that the fulfillment will not be on the physical earth, but rather the Jerusalem which is above as part of the New Exodus In Christ.......leading to what I refer to as the eternal church.....the eternal assembly described in Hebrews.

I believe just as Jerusalem was respresentative of the kingdom of Israel, so the church is the visible representative administrator in the kingdom of God. Also, I believe as Jerusalem was the dwelling place of the "house of God" where the covenant of salvation was more manifest than anywhere else in the kingdom of Israel, so when you come into church membership you have come to the "pilar and ground of the truth" with regard to the most visible and declarative covenant expression on earth. So in these senses, , the church parallels Jerusalem in the Old Tesatment and with regard to the future new Jerusalem, she is called the Bride as it is here future home for those who served here and now through her as God's revealed way of worship and service . However, there are multitudes and multidues of "saved" people who will dwell outside that city AFTER the old earth has passed away where they dwell upon a new earth (Rev. 21:24) and their numbers are so many they are called "the nations" of the saved.

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you have spell check on your phone?

What do you think those books say about this?

That Jesus will in the future call him his Brise to be resurrected and glorified with Him, and that others will get raised at his Second Coiming, and end of His reign on the Earth!

 

[Iconoclast]

I believe just as Jerusalem was respresentative of the kingdom of Israel, so the church is the visible representative administrator in the kingdom of God. Also, I believe as Jerusalem was the dwelling place of the "house of God" where the covenant of salvation was more manifest than anywhere else in the kingdom of Israel, so when you come into church membership you have come to the "pilar and ground of the truth" with regard to the most visible and declarative covenant expression on earth. So in these senses, , the church parallels Jerusalem in the Old Tesatment and with regard to the future new Jerusalem, she is called the Bride as it is here future home for those who served here and now through her as God's revealed way of worship and service . However, there are multitudes and multidues of "saved" people who will dwell outside that city AFTER the old earth has passed away where they dwell upon a new earth (Rev. 21:24) and their numbers are so many they are called "the nations" of the saved.

I agree that the local church is the visible administration of the Kingdom of God on earth.....
WHAT I am suggesting however is that the local church is like a doorway......or a portal....like Jacob's ladder.....that connects the reality of the unseen heavenly Kingdom reign...Gen 28:12,jn 1:51....with what we offer by way of worship and service.....

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree that the local church is the visible administration of the Kingdom of God on earth.....
WHAT I am suggesting however is that the local church is like a doorway......or a portal....like Jacob's ladder.....that connects the reality of the unseen heavenly Kingdom reign...Gen 28:12,jn 1:51....with what we offer by way of worship and service.....

The local church is when the nelievers gather together to raise.worship/get taught of the lord, and just think that it includes more than just Landmark Baptists!

 

[The Biblicist]

I agree that the local church is the visible administration of the Kingdom of God on earth.....
WHAT I am suggesting however is that the local church is like a doorway......or a portal....like Jacob's ladder.....that connects the reality of the unseen heavenly Kingdom reign...Gen 28:12,jn 1:51....with what we offer by way of worship and service.....

Icon, that is precisely my interpretation of Hebrews 12:22-25. When the church is assembled, heaven assembles as the covenant truths are being expressed in the very act of worship, ordiances, etc.