Why Have Denominations?

The Pope knows -- lets all listen to "him" </font>[/QUOTE]It is a good thing that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. And, furthermore, He himself has promised that his word will never change. It is good that Christ Himself taught sola scriptura, in order that we don't have to depend on the pope or his magesterium.

What if we did. The news reported today that Pope Benedict XVI had two strokes and continues to have heart troubles. Where does that now leave the Catholic Church?
DHK

 

Really? Where?

 

Good one! John 16:13 expressly contradicts the view that Christ taught SS

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Funny how a denomination changes its veiws and doctrines through the ages,claiming its own to be the only truth,then it splits, with each branch again claiming all others are wrong.Amazing how this differs with Jesus the same today,yesterday and tommorrow.How many"true and only"doctrines do we have now?

 

Amen bmerr

 

Matt 28
Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you : and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Matt 28:19-20

Good point - if the RCC was correct that is exactly where we would be stuck. We could not trust the "wicked popes" that even the RCC admits to -- and we could not figure out the Bible just by reading the plain english translations AND we could not get it from the ECFs (as we see in Matt's rejection of Tertullian AND the Didache) and we could not get it from anyone else that the RCC sought to "re-interpret when it pleases them" -- so we would be stuck "without a mission".

Unnable to fulfill what Christ HAD taught (in Matt 28's context) because we have to claim that we are less able to learn that the unneducated fishermen that HE was talking to in his day!

At least that would be true if we were still in the RCC-dominated dark ages and had only myth, supersitition and the dogmatic word of priests and popes (at war with each other) to go by.

Thankfully - we have the Word of God "instead".

Thankfully - we have the teaching ministry of the "Spirit of Truth" -- "instead".

Though the RCC is adamant about telling us just how "insufficient" all that really is.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Pure nonsense!

You "divide God against Himself" to make your argument!

You divide THE Holy Spirit from the WORK of the Holy Spirit and place them in opposition.


Peter said that the scritpure is given by divine revelation and that "Holy men of old MOVED by the Holy Spirit SPOKE FROM GOD" in writing that text that you place in "opposition" to the Holy Spirit.

Your argument is in effect "HOW can we really trust and rely on the Holy Spirit to teach us if we are STILL stuck reading HIS WORD!??".

What kind of nonsensical reasoning is that??

I can't believe some of the things that get posted!

In Christ,

Bob

 

If mankind had no choice there would be no sin.

If mankind as God's children were perfect in all regards once saved - then the Jews would have accepted Christ and there would be no reason for a Christian church to split off from them.

If the Christian church were invincibly "true" then Paul would not have predicted error "From within" in Acts 20 and a "falling away" in 2Thess 2 and would not have had to leave Timothy in Ephesus JUST to squash error after error after error.

If the Christian church were immune from the sins and misdirection of its leaders there would have been no RCC. No Catholics going to war against catholics, no dark ages no need for a reformation.

But NONE of that is the fault of the Bible OR the "insufficiencey" of the teaching ministry of the "Spirit of Truth" that "CONVICTS THE WORLD" in John 16 (NOT just the apostles!).

In Christ,

Bob

 

This is silly. The NT QUOTES THE OT!! You would need to do a huge scissors/cut-and-paste of the NT to DELETE OUT every quote of God's Word "scripture" quoted from the OT!

You would have to delete ALL the Gospels if you wanted to delete ANY word that was in harmony with the pre-cross Word of God AND THEN delete all references to it in Paul's letters etc.

What a "tiny Bible" you would have!

God is bigger than that.

His Word is better, bigger and more reliable than that.

Christians should have a better understanding of history and the Bible text than to think that the OT can be cut out without doing a hatchet job on history (the NT saints were READING the OT and calling it "scripture" and "authorotative" in the NT) - and a hatchet job on the NT text (remove the gospels and cut-and-paste references to the OT text when it is used "authorotatively").

I am amazed!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Before you decide to "do away with denominations" you need to figure out which ones you want to go and why?

The Baptist and the Church of Christ both teach that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior. They both teach that you must make a personal committment to Christ. They both teach you should be baptized. Difference in beliefs? The C o C believe that the water literally washes away the sin, and if you die between when you ask Christ into your heart, and when you enter the baptistry, you end up in hell.

I know a few Methodists who teach exactly what we teach. I know some United Methodists who actually teach that the Lord's Prayer is irrelevant to modern times.

We have a church here in town that is famous for having a female, lesbian minister. They call themselves "Second Baptist."

If you understand the organization of the Baptist Church, and the SBC, there is no "headquarters that gives marching orders." There is a fellowship of churches that offer support to sister churches through a variety of methods.

A man of God I respect very much once pointed out that some people feel more comfortable with strict rituals, and some are more comfortable with relaxed services. He said, "Look at what they teach, in that building, that church," and choose that way. Question your own Pastor. If he is telling the truth, the scripture will back him up. If he is not, the scripture will reveal it.

The first denominational differences, in my opinion, were between Paul and Peter. I think they both did a wonderful work for Christ though.

 

We have a church here in town that is famous for having a female, lesbian minister. They call themselves "Second Baptist."


I live in Texas and haven't heard of "Second Baptist? Where is this at?

 

Speaking of the existence of denominations in 21st century
America, Bmerr says: "This is confusion, and God is not its' author (1 Cor 14:33)."

You have misused this scripture.
What you probably mean is that this situation
does not match human logic.
The scripture speaks against that which is
not in the proper order

1Co 14:33 (KJV1769 with Strong's numbers):
For1063 God2316 is2076 not3756 the author of confusion,181
but235 of peace,1515 as5613 in1722 all3956 churches1577
of the3588 saints.40

G181
ἀκαταστασία
akatastasia
ak-at-as-tah-see'-ah
From G182; instability, that is, disorder: - commotion, confusion, tumult.

If denominational-ism is God's method of
winning the world with many witnesses,
we err to gripe against it.

 

Bmrr -

I'm sorry, but time and time again the bible tells us, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." Baptism is an act of obidience. Now, you can argue as much as you like, but I know this is true because of the two weeks between when I ~knew~ Christ was in my heart, and ~knew~ He had forgiven me, and the time it took for me to attend a service, make a public profession of faith, and be baptised.

My life, my soul, my everything changed the moment I asked Christ to be my Lord and savior. In the two weeks between when I was saved and when I was baptized, I lead three other people to Christ. I couldn't have kept quiet about His love and my love for Him if someone had threatened to torture me if I didn't. The thief on the cross wasn't baptized, but he was in heaven with Christ when he died. His belief in Christ was his salvation.

"Ask Christ into your heart," is a phrase used to sum up the experience. It is not found in the bible, but what it describes is. Asking Christ to forgive you, accepting/believing that He is, indeed, Lord, accepting the pardon and love He offers. All of these are part of "Asking Christ into your heart." It is our way of doing more than the demons. Even the demons acknowledge that Christ is Christ. We must acknowledge that He is OUR Lord and Savior.

I have a tremendous problem with you over the Lord's prayer. First - How can ANY Christian say that ANY of the words of Christ, especially the words He gave to us as an example of how HE wants us to pray - "don't apply today."

If you say that the prayer of Christ no longer applies, then you say that what Christ taught no longer applies.

Second - If you say His Kingdom is here, please explain to me why He speaks of returning, "I go to prepare a place for you, and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again." Why did He tell us to go into all the world and preach the gospel? Why did HE speak of returning like a thief in the night?

If you say His Kingdom is here - explain to me Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Hugh Hefner, Adolph Hitler - is this world, with its selfishness, its disregard for God and the laws of God, its hate - is THIS world, with its hate and evil the glorious Kingdom of God? John 18:36 says, "My Kingdom is not of this world." Yet, you say it is. Who should I believe? You or Christ?

As to the Southern Baptist Convention - Whether you attended an SBC church or not, the fact is, the SBC is not organized in such a fashion that a "headquarters" gives orders to the individual churches. If you didn't understand that when you were part of an SBC church, I'm sorry. Perhaps you should have known more about your church organization. The facts are the facts. SBC churches are NOT dictated to by anyone. They are autonomous bodies of believers.

The SBC works through 1,200 local associations, and 41 station conventions and fellowships, churches who choose to join the SBC share basic biblical beliefs. They also share a committment to share Jesus Christ with the world. The churches in the convention work in friendly cooperation, they are not dictated to.

A church that wishes to join the convention is saying that they agree that Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose from grave. That He lives today, and that He offers abundant and eternal life to all who believe in him and repent of sin.

Southern Baptists hold firmly to the principle of church autonomy and self-rule. The SBC does NOT ordain ministers, assign staff to churches, levy contributions to denominational causes, dictate literature or calendar, or assign persons to churches. ALL of these decisions are made by individual congregations/churches.

Members of the SBC are wary of interdenominational councils. They may work with other churches on issues which they share a common interest in, but they do not enter into covenants with them.

The convention is an alliance of churches in a friendly cooperation working toward common goals. The convention in no way dictates to those churches. Individual churches are independent. For this reason you may find a lot of differences in how they conduct worship. I've been in SBC churches that require anyone who partakes of communion to be a member of that church. I've been in SBC churches that require only that you profess to be a Christian to partake of communion.

The SBC offers Baptists a chance to get together, to discuss ways to share the word of God, to benefit from the knowledge of others of like faith and order. It does not dictate though.

As to the old and new testament. Christ often referred us back to the old testament, and Christ told us that He came to fulfill the law, not to excuse the law. His own commandments, as I already pointed out, strengthened most of the godly points. He didn't just say "don't commit adultry," he said, "If you think it in your heart, you're guilty." I realize that some things did change between the old testament and the new testament, but as I've walked with Christ longer and longer, and read more and more of God's word, I've realized that God never changed, and His commandments never changed. God has always said, "Obey me," God has always provided a way to achieve forgiveness of sin, God has always loved more than we are worthy of. This is unchanged from the Genesis to Revelation. What did change was HOW we could receive forgiveness.

I often hear unbelievers in Christ tell me that there is no proof there is God, no witnesses. I once heard a wonderful man of God say, "Every true Christian, from the day He rose to today, is a witness."

I often have people come to me and say they doubt someone else's Christianity. After reminding them it isn't our place to judge, I tell them, if you are REALLY concerned that they may not really know the Lord, ask them to tell you about the day they came to know Christ as Lord and Savior, and you will find that what a real believer shares is not shaking the preacher's hand or being baptised in the baptistry. A true believer will always tell you how Christ changed their life that day.

That doesn't mean we didn't shake a preacher's hand, or that we didn't follow Christ in believer's baptism. It just means that our lives were changed ~before~ the rituals of public profession were performed.

In that light, a person I know came to me a few years ago and said, "You know how you used to talk about a preson's testimony? It used to really bother me because I believed I was a Christian, and I had been baptized, but I didn't really get what you were talking about. I went to church, and I read the bible, and I thought I was a Christian. Then, one day, when I was really upset about something, I started reading my bible and praying, and I realized that in all the fuss I'd said I believed in Him, but I'd never actually ASKED Him to forgive me and be my Lord. So I did, and my life changed forever."

If you put too much emphasis on the water, you may forget the importance of Christ, and Christ is ALL that matters in the end.

If you dismiss the majority of God's holy word, how can you believe any of it? You have tossed out the old testament are irrelevant, most Church of Christ people toss out Revelations as irrelevant, and now you are telling me that you are dismissing words from Christ Himself as irrelevant.

What part of the bible DO you believe? And how can you call yourself a Church of CHRIST if Christ's own words "don't apply" today?

[ May 08, 2005, 12:40 AM: Message edited by: TexasSky ]

 

Ed is right in the middle of obEDience!

 

Bmerr,

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I may sound like I'm trying to be difficult, but I'm not. I really, truly don't understand some of what you are saying in regards to the scripture or in regards to how you put it.

Regarding belief

John 3:14-21 (This is to pick up verses before and after 16-18) (Christ speaking).

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up that that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life; For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemnded already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son . This is the verdict; light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

(Note, each reference is to belief as the key to salvation, non-belief resulting in condemnation, no mention of baptism itself at all.)

John 5:24 (Christ speaking) "I tell you the turth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. ;

Again - no mention of baptism as a component of forgiveness. It is an act of obedience.

John 6:47 (Once again, Christ speaking.) "I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

John 7:37-39 "On the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.By this he meant the Spirit whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Acts 10:42-47
He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed in judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him ; that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have. So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

(Note - the Holy Spirit came and filled them BEFORE they were baptized with water. Not after.)

Acts 13:38-48

"Therefore my brothre, I wan you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of MosesTake care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you. "Look, you scoffers, wonder and perish, for I am going to do something in your days that you would never believe even if someone told you." As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath. When the congretation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God. On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered ot hear the world of the Lord. WHen the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and talked abusively against what Paul was saying. Then Paul and barnabas answered them bolly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. since you reject it and do not consider yoruselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiels. For this is what the Lord has commanded us. "I have made you a light for the Gentiesl, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth." When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

(Once again - no mention of baptism as the component of salvation - only of belief. Baptism was an act of obedience.)

I could go on and on as there are many verses that refer to belief as the key to salvation.

There there is the simple fact that John the Baptist, who seemed to be correct fairly often, states in John 1:33-34 "I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water, told me, the man on whom you see the spriti come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit."

Acts 1:5 Christ "For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptised with the Holy Spirit."

Christ doesn't need water to wash away sins.
We use water to obey him and follow his example. A way of professing him before men.

As to my experience. It isn't "emotions," that I speak of. I can't possibly explain what how a Christian knows the presence of God in his life, and honestly, I shouldn't have a need to. There is, without a doubt, a change in your life when Christ moves into your life. Paul is living proof of this, as are millions of others throughout the ages, and it isn't "an emotional feeling." I wasn't on some "great musical lead emotional high," the night I asked Christ to be my Lord and savior. I was praying quietly in my room, and I went from a person who didn't really understand it all, to a person who hadto tell others about Christ, over night and instantly. It wasn't, as you seem to think, an emotional high.

I really do NOT mean to misrepresent your position in regards to the scripture. I sincerely feel that you've told me you reject the majority of God's word. You dismissed the old testament because it is pre-Christ's arrival. Yet Christ quotes it to us. You told me the Lord's Prayer doesn't apply to us because in your opinion Christ's Kingdom is here. Yet, Christ gave this prayer as an example for us. Many of your faith have, that Revelations is irrelevant for numerous reasons that fall along the lines of "Christ's kingdom is here". So I honestly am at a loss about what part of the scripture we are supposd to consider relevant in that context. You say not every promise is for you, but what you've said goes far beyond that stating that not every promise is for everyone. What you said is not about promises, it is about a tremendously large portion of the bible. From Genesis through John at least.

And you keep saying that God's Kingdom has come, and yet, that prayer says "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Do you ~really~ believe that God's will is being done here, the way it is being done in heaven?

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I am trying to understand.

 

You are right TexasSky. The teaching that water baptism is a requirement for salvation is unreconcilable with scripture and real life application making it a false, unbiblical doctrine.

Hundreds upon hundreds are saved daily world wide through faith alone in Jesus Christ, many who have yet to even hear about being baptized by water. So the reallity is plain to observe. I personally was saved at age ten, went undiscipled and unchurched for twenty-five years, then was lead by God to study His Word. Once I learned about John's baptism by water, I took the plunge to declare my allegence to Jesus Christ and repentance of sin in my life before my fellow believers.

Was my faith in Jesus Christ in vain for twenty-five years? Would I have died and found myself in hell only to hear Jesus say 'well I know you were trusting in me to save you, but you wasn't baptized by water, so sorry about your luck'.

God Bless!