The Pope knows -- lets all listen to "him"
What if we did. The news reported today that Pope Benedict XVI had two strokes and continues to have heart troubles. Where does that now leave the Catholic Church?
DHK
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Why Have Denominations?
- Thread starter bmerr
- Start date
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What if we did. The news reported today that Pope Benedict XVI had two strokes and continues to have heart troubles. Where does that now leave the Catholic Church?
DHK
Living4Him
New Member
Really? Where?
Good one! John 16:13 expressly contradicts the view that Christ taught SS
Yours in Christ
Matt
Yours in Christ
Matt
J
jacob62
Guest
Funny how a denomination changes its veiws and doctrines through the ages,claiming its own to be the only truth,then it splits, with each branch again claiming all others are wrong.Amazing how this differs with Jesus the same today,yesterday and tommorrow.How many"true and only"doctrines do we have now?
Matt,
bmerr here. John 16:13 was spoken to the apostles. Many hold the idea that this was for believers of all time. If we go back to John 14:26, we read also that the Holy Ghost would "...bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
Jesus has said nothing to me, or anyone else since His acsension, personally. The apostles however, are a different story.
Also, if the Holy Spirit guided us into all truth today, then there would be no need to "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Tim 2:15), and there wouldn't be all the denominations we see around us. There would only be one church, one doctrine.
One last thought, in John 12:48, Jesus said that the word which He has spoken would judge us in the last day. This would include the words of the apostles and other inspired writers, since they received their doctrine from the Holy Spirit, Who received it from Christ (John 16:13-15), and it is their words by which we believe today (John 17:20).
Only the Scriptures are authoritative and reliable to guide us to Heaven.
jacob62,
That's why I plead with men to return to the New Testament as their sole source of authority in religion. If everyone limited themselves to teaching and practicing what is found in the New Testament, we would all be one body, one church. Problems and division arises when men add to and/or take away from what is written.
In Christ,
bmerr
bmerr here. John 16:13 was spoken to the apostles. Many hold the idea that this was for believers of all time. If we go back to John 14:26, we read also that the Holy Ghost would "...bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
Jesus has said nothing to me, or anyone else since His acsension, personally. The apostles however, are a different story.
Also, if the Holy Spirit guided us into all truth today, then there would be no need to "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Tim 2:15), and there wouldn't be all the denominations we see around us. There would only be one church, one doctrine.
One last thought, in John 12:48, Jesus said that the word which He has spoken would judge us in the last day. This would include the words of the apostles and other inspired writers, since they received their doctrine from the Holy Spirit, Who received it from Christ (John 16:13-15), and it is their words by which we believe today (John 17:20).
Only the Scriptures are authoritative and reliable to guide us to Heaven.
jacob62,
That's why I plead with men to return to the New Testament as their sole source of authority in religion. If everyone limited themselves to teaching and practicing what is found in the New Testament, we would all be one body, one church. Problems and division arises when men add to and/or take away from what is written.
In Christ,
bmerr
J
jacob62
Guest
Amen bmerr
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Matt 28
Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you : and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Matt 28:19-20
Unnable to fulfill what Christ HAD taught (in Matt 28's context) because we have to claim that we are less able to learn that the unneducated fishermen that HE was talking to in his day!
At least that would be true if we were still in the RCC-dominated dark ages and had only myth, supersitition and the dogmatic word of priests and popes (at war with each other) to go by.
Thankfully - we have the Word of God "instead".
Thankfully - we have the teaching ministry of the "Spirit of Truth" -- "instead".
Though the RCC is adamant about telling us just how "insufficient" all that really is.
In Christ,
Bob
Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you : and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Matt 28:19-20
Good point - if the RCC was correct that is exactly where we would be stuck. We could not trust the "wicked popes" that even the RCC admits to -- and we could not figure out the Bible just by reading the plain english translations AND we could not get it from the ECFs (as we see in Matt's rejection of Tertullian AND the Didache) and we could not get it from anyone else that the RCC sought to "re-interpret when it pleases them" -- so we would be stuck "without a mission".
Unnable to fulfill what Christ HAD taught (in Matt 28's context) because we have to claim that we are less able to learn that the unneducated fishermen that HE was talking to in his day!
At least that would be true if we were still in the RCC-dominated dark ages and had only myth, supersitition and the dogmatic word of priests and popes (at war with each other) to go by.
Thankfully - we have the Word of God "instead".
Thankfully - we have the teaching ministry of the "Spirit of Truth" -- "instead".
Though the RCC is adamant about telling us just how "insufficient" all that really is.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Pure nonsense!
You "divide God against Himself" to make your argument!
You divide THE Holy Spirit from the WORK of the Holy Spirit and place them in opposition.
Peter said that the scritpure is given by divine revelation and that "Holy men of old MOVED by the Holy Spirit SPOKE FROM GOD" in writing that text that you place in "opposition" to the Holy Spirit.
Your argument is in effect "HOW can we really trust and rely on the Holy Spirit to teach us if we are STILL stuck reading HIS WORD!??".
What kind of nonsensical reasoning is that??
I can't believe some of the things that get posted!
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
If mankind had no choice there would be no sin.
If mankind as God's children were perfect in all regards once saved - then the Jews would have accepted Christ and there would be no reason for a Christian church to split off from them.
If the Christian church were invincibly "true" then Paul would not have predicted error "From within" in Acts 20 and a "falling away" in 2Thess 2 and would not have had to leave Timothy in Ephesus JUST to squash error after error after error.
If the Christian church were immune from the sins and misdirection of its leaders there would have been no RCC. No Catholics going to war against catholics, no dark ages no need for a reformation.
But NONE of that is the fault of the Bible OR the "insufficiencey" of the teaching ministry of the "Spirit of Truth" that "CONVICTS THE WORLD" in John 16 (NOT just the apostles!).
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
This is silly. The NT QUOTES THE OT!! You would need to do a huge scissors/cut-and-paste of the NT to DELETE OUT every quote of God's Word "scripture" quoted from the OT!
You would have to delete ALL the Gospels if you wanted to delete ANY word that was in harmony with the pre-cross Word of God AND THEN delete all references to it in Paul's letters etc.
What a "tiny Bible" you would have!
God is bigger than that.
His Word is better, bigger and more reliable than that.
Christians should have a better understanding of history and the Bible text than to think that the OT can be cut out without doing a hatchet job on history (the NT saints were READING the OT and calling it "scripture" and "authorotative" in the NT) - and a hatchet job on the NT text (remove the gospels and cut-and-paste references to the OT text when it is used "authorotatively").
I am amazed!
In Christ,
Bob
Bob,
bmerr here. Steady big fella! I think you're taking what I said way beyond what I was saying. The OT is Scripture, no question about it. I don't disregard the OT, I just don't look to it for autority in religion. There are truths about God and His dealing with man that can only be learned in the OT.
Also, 1 Cor 10:11 tells us, "...all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."
You are correct in citing the many examples of NT authors referenceing and quoting OT passages. However, they did not do so to get authority for practice in Christianity. I think if we were to follow OT references out, the majority of them would be in reference to Jesus being the Christ, or comparing OT types with NT antetypes.
The main point I was making, (and I apologize for not being clearer), was that Christianity is God's authorized religion under the New Testament, therefore that is where we need to look for our authority concerning the mission, organization, worship, and message of Christ's church.
For example, we wouldn't go to the Old Testament for authority to offer animal sacrifices for use in our worship. Likewise the burning of incense. We wouldn't set up a priesthood after the example of the Levitical priests. That's all I meant.
As far as dividing the Holy Spirit from the work of the Holy Spirit, I'm not sure what you mean. The Holy Spirit works, and has always worked through the word of God. It's His sword (Eph 6:17), His tool by which He does His work.
As one studys God's word, the Spirit of God works on the heart of man through the influence of the word, convincing men of sin and righteousness.
In closing, the apostasy of the RCC and many other false doctrines are fortold in the Bible. The cause of these divisions was man's departure from the apostles' doctrine. If men today would return to that doctrine, denominationalism would cease to be. Sadly, that will probably not happen.
I appreciate your zeal, Bob, but I think you misunderstood me. No harm done. Talk to you later.
In Christ,
bmerr
bmerr here. Steady big fella! I think you're taking what I said way beyond what I was saying. The OT is Scripture, no question about it. I don't disregard the OT, I just don't look to it for autority in religion. There are truths about God and His dealing with man that can only be learned in the OT.
Also, 1 Cor 10:11 tells us, "...all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."
You are correct in citing the many examples of NT authors referenceing and quoting OT passages. However, they did not do so to get authority for practice in Christianity. I think if we were to follow OT references out, the majority of them would be in reference to Jesus being the Christ, or comparing OT types with NT antetypes.
The main point I was making, (and I apologize for not being clearer), was that Christianity is God's authorized religion under the New Testament, therefore that is where we need to look for our authority concerning the mission, organization, worship, and message of Christ's church.
For example, we wouldn't go to the Old Testament for authority to offer animal sacrifices for use in our worship. Likewise the burning of incense. We wouldn't set up a priesthood after the example of the Levitical priests. That's all I meant.
As far as dividing the Holy Spirit from the work of the Holy Spirit, I'm not sure what you mean. The Holy Spirit works, and has always worked through the word of God. It's His sword (Eph 6:17), His tool by which He does His work.
As one studys God's word, the Spirit of God works on the heart of man through the influence of the word, convincing men of sin and righteousness.
In closing, the apostasy of the RCC and many other false doctrines are fortold in the Bible. The cause of these divisions was man's departure from the apostles' doctrine. If men today would return to that doctrine, denominationalism would cease to be. Sadly, that will probably not happen.
I appreciate your zeal, Bob, but I think you misunderstood me. No harm done. Talk to you later.
In Christ,
bmerr
T
TexasSky
Guest
Before you decide to "do away with denominations" you need to figure out which ones you want to go and why?
The Baptist and the Church of Christ both teach that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior. They both teach that you must make a personal committment to Christ. They both teach you should be baptized. Difference in beliefs? The C o C believe that the water literally washes away the sin, and if you die between when you ask Christ into your heart, and when you enter the baptistry, you end up in hell.
I know a few Methodists who teach exactly what we teach. I know some United Methodists who actually teach that the Lord's Prayer is irrelevant to modern times.
We have a church here in town that is famous for having a female, lesbian minister. They call themselves "Second Baptist."
If you understand the organization of the Baptist Church, and the SBC, there is no "headquarters that gives marching orders." There is a fellowship of churches that offer support to sister churches through a variety of methods.
A man of God I respect very much once pointed out that some people feel more comfortable with strict rituals, and some are more comfortable with relaxed services. He said, "Look at what they teach, in that building, that church," and choose that way. Question your own Pastor. If he is telling the truth, the scripture will back him up. If he is not, the scripture will reveal it.
The first denominational differences, in my opinion, were between Paul and Peter. I think they both did a wonderful work for Christ though.
The Baptist and the Church of Christ both teach that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior. They both teach that you must make a personal committment to Christ. They both teach you should be baptized. Difference in beliefs? The C o C believe that the water literally washes away the sin, and if you die between when you ask Christ into your heart, and when you enter the baptistry, you end up in hell.
I know a few Methodists who teach exactly what we teach. I know some United Methodists who actually teach that the Lord's Prayer is irrelevant to modern times.
We have a church here in town that is famous for having a female, lesbian minister. They call themselves "Second Baptist."
If you understand the organization of the Baptist Church, and the SBC, there is no "headquarters that gives marching orders." There is a fellowship of churches that offer support to sister churches through a variety of methods.
A man of God I respect very much once pointed out that some people feel more comfortable with strict rituals, and some are more comfortable with relaxed services. He said, "Look at what they teach, in that building, that church," and choose that way. Question your own Pastor. If he is telling the truth, the scripture will back him up. If he is not, the scripture will reveal it.
The first denominational differences, in my opinion, were between Paul and Peter. I think they both did a wonderful work for Christ though.
TexasSky,
bmerr here,
I'd like to end up with as many denominations as we can find in the New Testament. None.
Jesus only said he was going to build one church. Surely we can investigate the NT and find out what they preached and how they worshipped. If we can find that, we'll have found His church.
As I've said before, and you alluded to, truth is universal. Anyone can make a true statement. Truth is not dependent upon human assent.
When a Baptist preacher says that Jesus is the Son of God, it's just as true as when a gospel preacher from the church of Christ says it.
I would correct the statement you made about our belief that water washes away sin. The Bible does not teach that, and neither do we. It is Jesus' blood that washes men clean from sin. (See, another true statement.)
However, what we and the Bible teach is that God has commanded man that in order to have his sins washed away, he must be baptized (Acts 2:38; 22:16). In order for one to be saved, he must be baptized (Mark 16:16; 1 Pet 3:21). We didn't come up with it on our own.
On the other hand, nowhere in Scripture is an unbeliever ever told to "ask Jesus into your heart". That is something man has come up with, and is not effectual for salvation.
As far as the Lord's Prayer, it is a pattern for prayer which is mostly relevant to us today. It would be incorrect for us today to pray "thy kingdom come", since the kingdom is already here. The kingdom is the church.
Concerning "Second Baptist", do you see how yet another denomination had to be formed in order to accomodate yet another departure from the word of God? Why do you suppose the lesbian minister couldn't get work at "First Baptist"?
In regards to "headquarters", what does "SBC" stand for? Is it not Southern Baptist Convention"? I used to be a Southern Baptist, and I thought that was what it meant. I could be wrong.
Do you remember a few years ago when the SBC decided that wives should graciously submit to their husbands? Doesn't the Bible already teach that? Why did the SBC need to meet to decide if the Bible was right or not?
That godly man gave some good advice. Most people look for a church that suits them. Very few go to the NT and ask, "What does God desire in worship?" Far and wide, religious services are conducted with an emphasis on what the people want, instead of on what God wants.
In order to know if our "pastor" is telling the truth, we must know it ourselves. It was after I began studying seriously on my own that I realized my "pastor" was not speaking the whole council of God on a number of issues. That's why I left the Southern Baptists.
I've never heard the assertion that there was a "denominational difference" between Paul and Peter. Would you care to elaborate?
In Christ,
bmerr
bmerr here,
I'd like to end up with as many denominations as we can find in the New Testament. None.
Jesus only said he was going to build one church. Surely we can investigate the NT and find out what they preached and how they worshipped. If we can find that, we'll have found His church.
As I've said before, and you alluded to, truth is universal. Anyone can make a true statement. Truth is not dependent upon human assent.
When a Baptist preacher says that Jesus is the Son of God, it's just as true as when a gospel preacher from the church of Christ says it.
I would correct the statement you made about our belief that water washes away sin. The Bible does not teach that, and neither do we. It is Jesus' blood that washes men clean from sin. (See, another true statement.)
However, what we and the Bible teach is that God has commanded man that in order to have his sins washed away, he must be baptized (Acts 2:38; 22:16). In order for one to be saved, he must be baptized (Mark 16:16; 1 Pet 3:21). We didn't come up with it on our own.
On the other hand, nowhere in Scripture is an unbeliever ever told to "ask Jesus into your heart". That is something man has come up with, and is not effectual for salvation.
As far as the Lord's Prayer, it is a pattern for prayer which is mostly relevant to us today. It would be incorrect for us today to pray "thy kingdom come", since the kingdom is already here. The kingdom is the church.
Concerning "Second Baptist", do you see how yet another denomination had to be formed in order to accomodate yet another departure from the word of God? Why do you suppose the lesbian minister couldn't get work at "First Baptist"?
In regards to "headquarters", what does "SBC" stand for? Is it not Southern Baptist Convention"? I used to be a Southern Baptist, and I thought that was what it meant. I could be wrong.
Do you remember a few years ago when the SBC decided that wives should graciously submit to their husbands? Doesn't the Bible already teach that? Why did the SBC need to meet to decide if the Bible was right or not?
That godly man gave some good advice. Most people look for a church that suits them. Very few go to the NT and ask, "What does God desire in worship?" Far and wide, religious services are conducted with an emphasis on what the people want, instead of on what God wants.
In order to know if our "pastor" is telling the truth, we must know it ourselves. It was after I began studying seriously on my own that I realized my "pastor" was not speaking the whole council of God on a number of issues. That's why I left the Southern Baptists.
I've never heard the assertion that there was a "denominational difference" between Paul and Peter. Would you care to elaborate?
In Christ,
bmerr
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Speaking of the existence of denominations in 21st century
America, Bmerr says: "This is confusion, and God is not its' author (1 Cor 14:33)."
You have misused this scripture.
What you probably mean is that this situation
does not match human logic.
The scripture speaks against that which is
not in the proper order
1Co 14:33 (KJV1769 with Strong's numbers):
For1063 God2316 is2076 not3756 the author of confusion,181
but235 of peace,1515 as5613 in1722 all3956 churches1577
of the3588 saints.40
G181
ἀκαταστασία
akatastasia
ak-at-as-tah-see'-ah
From G182; instability, that is, disorder: - commotion, confusion, tumult.
If denominational-ism is God's method of
winning the world with many witnesses,
we err to gripe against it.
America, Bmerr says: "This is confusion, and God is not its' author (1 Cor 14:33)."
You have misused this scripture.
What you probably mean is that this situation
does not match human logic.
The scripture speaks against that which is
not in the proper order
1Co 14:33 (KJV1769 with Strong's numbers):
For1063 God2316 is2076 not3756 the author of confusion,181
but235 of peace,1515 as5613 in1722 all3956 churches1577
of the3588 saints.40
G181
ἀκαταστασία
akatastasia
ak-at-as-tah-see'-ah
From G182; instability, that is, disorder: - commotion, confusion, tumult.
If denominational-ism is God's method of
winning the world with many witnesses,
we err to gripe against it.
T
TexasSky
Guest
Bmrr -
I'm sorry, but time and time again the bible tells us, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." Baptism is an act of obidience. Now, you can argue as much as you like, but I know this is true because of the two weeks between when I ~knew~ Christ was in my heart, and ~knew~ He had forgiven me, and the time it took for me to attend a service, make a public profession of faith, and be baptised.
My life, my soul, my everything changed the moment I asked Christ to be my Lord and savior. In the two weeks between when I was saved and when I was baptized, I lead three other people to Christ. I couldn't have kept quiet about His love and my love for Him if someone had threatened to torture me if I didn't. The thief on the cross wasn't baptized, but he was in heaven with Christ when he died. His belief in Christ was his salvation.
"Ask Christ into your heart," is a phrase used to sum up the experience. It is not found in the bible, but what it describes is. Asking Christ to forgive you, accepting/believing that He is, indeed, Lord, accepting the pardon and love He offers. All of these are part of "Asking Christ into your heart." It is our way of doing more than the demons. Even the demons acknowledge that Christ is Christ. We must acknowledge that He is OUR Lord and Savior.
I have a tremendous problem with you over the Lord's prayer. First - How can ANY Christian say that ANY of the words of Christ, especially the words He gave to us as an example of how HE wants us to pray - "don't apply today."
If you say that the prayer of Christ no longer applies, then you say that what Christ taught no longer applies.
Second - If you say His Kingdom is here, please explain to me why He speaks of returning, "I go to prepare a place for you, and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again." Why did He tell us to go into all the world and preach the gospel? Why did HE speak of returning like a thief in the night?
If you say His Kingdom is here - explain to me Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Hugh Hefner, Adolph Hitler - is this world, with its selfishness, its disregard for God and the laws of God, its hate - is THIS world, with its hate and evil the glorious Kingdom of God? John 18:36 says, "My Kingdom is not of this world." Yet, you say it is. Who should I believe? You or Christ?
As to the Southern Baptist Convention - Whether you attended an SBC church or not, the fact is, the SBC is not organized in such a fashion that a "headquarters" gives orders to the individual churches. If you didn't understand that when you were part of an SBC church, I'm sorry. Perhaps you should have known more about your church organization. The facts are the facts. SBC churches are NOT dictated to by anyone. They are autonomous bodies of believers.
The SBC works through 1,200 local associations, and 41 station conventions and fellowships, churches who choose to join the SBC share basic biblical beliefs. They also share a committment to share Jesus Christ with the world. The churches in the convention work in friendly cooperation, they are not dictated to.
A church that wishes to join the convention is saying that they agree that Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose from grave. That He lives today, and that He offers abundant and eternal life to all who believe in him and repent of sin.
Southern Baptists hold firmly to the principle of church autonomy and self-rule. The SBC does NOT ordain ministers, assign staff to churches, levy contributions to denominational causes, dictate literature or calendar, or assign persons to churches. ALL of these decisions are made by individual congregations/churches.
Members of the SBC are wary of interdenominational councils. They may work with other churches on issues which they share a common interest in, but they do not enter into covenants with them.
The convention is an alliance of churches in a friendly cooperation working toward common goals. The convention in no way dictates to those churches. Individual churches are independent. For this reason you may find a lot of differences in how they conduct worship. I've been in SBC churches that require anyone who partakes of communion to be a member of that church. I've been in SBC churches that require only that you profess to be a Christian to partake of communion.
The SBC offers Baptists a chance to get together, to discuss ways to share the word of God, to benefit from the knowledge of others of like faith and order. It does not dictate though.
As to the old and new testament. Christ often referred us back to the old testament, and Christ told us that He came to fulfill the law, not to excuse the law. His own commandments, as I already pointed out, strengthened most of the godly points. He didn't just say "don't commit adultry," he said, "If you think it in your heart, you're guilty." I realize that some things did change between the old testament and the new testament, but as I've walked with Christ longer and longer, and read more and more of God's word, I've realized that God never changed, and His commandments never changed. God has always said, "Obey me," God has always provided a way to achieve forgiveness of sin, God has always loved more than we are worthy of. This is unchanged from the Genesis to Revelation. What did change was HOW we could receive forgiveness.
I often hear unbelievers in Christ tell me that there is no proof there is God, no witnesses. I once heard a wonderful man of God say, "Every true Christian, from the day He rose to today, is a witness."
I often have people come to me and say they doubt someone else's Christianity. After reminding them it isn't our place to judge, I tell them, if you are REALLY concerned that they may not really know the Lord, ask them to tell you about the day they came to know Christ as Lord and Savior, and you will find that what a real believer shares is not shaking the preacher's hand or being baptised in the baptistry. A true believer will always tell you how Christ changed their life that day.
That doesn't mean we didn't shake a preacher's hand, or that we didn't follow Christ in believer's baptism. It just means that our lives were changed ~before~ the rituals of public profession were performed.
In that light, a person I know came to me a few years ago and said, "You know how you used to talk about a preson's testimony? It used to really bother me because I believed I was a Christian, and I had been baptized, but I didn't really get what you were talking about. I went to church, and I read the bible, and I thought I was a Christian. Then, one day, when I was really upset about something, I started reading my bible and praying, and I realized that in all the fuss I'd said I believed in Him, but I'd never actually ASKED Him to forgive me and be my Lord. So I did, and my life changed forever."
If you put too much emphasis on the water, you may forget the importance of Christ, and Christ is ALL that matters in the end.
If you dismiss the majority of God's holy word, how can you believe any of it? You have tossed out the old testament are irrelevant, most Church of Christ people toss out Revelations as irrelevant, and now you are telling me that you are dismissing words from Christ Himself as irrelevant.
What part of the bible DO you believe? And how can you call yourself a Church of CHRIST if Christ's own words "don't apply" today?
[ May 08, 2005, 12:40 AM: Message edited by: TexasSky ]
I'm sorry, but time and time again the bible tells us, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." Baptism is an act of obidience. Now, you can argue as much as you like, but I know this is true because of the two weeks between when I ~knew~ Christ was in my heart, and ~knew~ He had forgiven me, and the time it took for me to attend a service, make a public profession of faith, and be baptised.
My life, my soul, my everything changed the moment I asked Christ to be my Lord and savior. In the two weeks between when I was saved and when I was baptized, I lead three other people to Christ. I couldn't have kept quiet about His love and my love for Him if someone had threatened to torture me if I didn't. The thief on the cross wasn't baptized, but he was in heaven with Christ when he died. His belief in Christ was his salvation.
"Ask Christ into your heart," is a phrase used to sum up the experience. It is not found in the bible, but what it describes is. Asking Christ to forgive you, accepting/believing that He is, indeed, Lord, accepting the pardon and love He offers. All of these are part of "Asking Christ into your heart." It is our way of doing more than the demons. Even the demons acknowledge that Christ is Christ. We must acknowledge that He is OUR Lord and Savior.
I have a tremendous problem with you over the Lord's prayer. First - How can ANY Christian say that ANY of the words of Christ, especially the words He gave to us as an example of how HE wants us to pray - "don't apply today."
If you say that the prayer of Christ no longer applies, then you say that what Christ taught no longer applies.
Second - If you say His Kingdom is here, please explain to me why He speaks of returning, "I go to prepare a place for you, and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again." Why did He tell us to go into all the world and preach the gospel? Why did HE speak of returning like a thief in the night?
If you say His Kingdom is here - explain to me Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Hugh Hefner, Adolph Hitler - is this world, with its selfishness, its disregard for God and the laws of God, its hate - is THIS world, with its hate and evil the glorious Kingdom of God? John 18:36 says, "My Kingdom is not of this world." Yet, you say it is. Who should I believe? You or Christ?
As to the Southern Baptist Convention - Whether you attended an SBC church or not, the fact is, the SBC is not organized in such a fashion that a "headquarters" gives orders to the individual churches. If you didn't understand that when you were part of an SBC church, I'm sorry. Perhaps you should have known more about your church organization. The facts are the facts. SBC churches are NOT dictated to by anyone. They are autonomous bodies of believers.
The SBC works through 1,200 local associations, and 41 station conventions and fellowships, churches who choose to join the SBC share basic biblical beliefs. They also share a committment to share Jesus Christ with the world. The churches in the convention work in friendly cooperation, they are not dictated to.
A church that wishes to join the convention is saying that they agree that Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose from grave. That He lives today, and that He offers abundant and eternal life to all who believe in him and repent of sin.
Southern Baptists hold firmly to the principle of church autonomy and self-rule. The SBC does NOT ordain ministers, assign staff to churches, levy contributions to denominational causes, dictate literature or calendar, or assign persons to churches. ALL of these decisions are made by individual congregations/churches.
Members of the SBC are wary of interdenominational councils. They may work with other churches on issues which they share a common interest in, but they do not enter into covenants with them.
The convention is an alliance of churches in a friendly cooperation working toward common goals. The convention in no way dictates to those churches. Individual churches are independent. For this reason you may find a lot of differences in how they conduct worship. I've been in SBC churches that require anyone who partakes of communion to be a member of that church. I've been in SBC churches that require only that you profess to be a Christian to partake of communion.
The SBC offers Baptists a chance to get together, to discuss ways to share the word of God, to benefit from the knowledge of others of like faith and order. It does not dictate though.
As to the old and new testament. Christ often referred us back to the old testament, and Christ told us that He came to fulfill the law, not to excuse the law. His own commandments, as I already pointed out, strengthened most of the godly points. He didn't just say "don't commit adultry," he said, "If you think it in your heart, you're guilty." I realize that some things did change between the old testament and the new testament, but as I've walked with Christ longer and longer, and read more and more of God's word, I've realized that God never changed, and His commandments never changed. God has always said, "Obey me," God has always provided a way to achieve forgiveness of sin, God has always loved more than we are worthy of. This is unchanged from the Genesis to Revelation. What did change was HOW we could receive forgiveness.
I often hear unbelievers in Christ tell me that there is no proof there is God, no witnesses. I once heard a wonderful man of God say, "Every true Christian, from the day He rose to today, is a witness."
I often have people come to me and say they doubt someone else's Christianity. After reminding them it isn't our place to judge, I tell them, if you are REALLY concerned that they may not really know the Lord, ask them to tell you about the day they came to know Christ as Lord and Savior, and you will find that what a real believer shares is not shaking the preacher's hand or being baptised in the baptistry. A true believer will always tell you how Christ changed their life that day.
That doesn't mean we didn't shake a preacher's hand, or that we didn't follow Christ in believer's baptism. It just means that our lives were changed ~before~ the rituals of public profession were performed.
In that light, a person I know came to me a few years ago and said, "You know how you used to talk about a preson's testimony? It used to really bother me because I believed I was a Christian, and I had been baptized, but I didn't really get what you were talking about. I went to church, and I read the bible, and I thought I was a Christian. Then, one day, when I was really upset about something, I started reading my bible and praying, and I realized that in all the fuss I'd said I believed in Him, but I'd never actually ASKED Him to forgive me and be my Lord. So I did, and my life changed forever."
If you put too much emphasis on the water, you may forget the importance of Christ, and Christ is ALL that matters in the end.
If you dismiss the majority of God's holy word, how can you believe any of it? You have tossed out the old testament are irrelevant, most Church of Christ people toss out Revelations as irrelevant, and now you are telling me that you are dismissing words from Christ Himself as irrelevant.
What part of the bible DO you believe? And how can you call yourself a Church of CHRIST if Christ's own words "don't apply" today?
[ May 08, 2005, 12:40 AM: Message edited by: TexasSky ]
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Ed is right in the middle of obEDience!
TexasSky,
The only place I'm familiar with where these words are spoken is Acts 16:31, in the account of the conversion of the Phillipian jailer (PJ, for short.)
If we were to read beyond verse 31, we'd see the same pattern of salvation we see in every other account of individual conversion, hearing the word of God, believing it, repentance and baptism. The whole experience is wrapped up with the phrase, "believing in God with all his house" (verse 34).
I think what clouds the understanding of so many is that when they see "believe", or "faith", they understand it to mean "believe only", or "faith only". Most are aware of the warnings about adding to or taking away from God's word, and they would never add or subtract from the text. However, these same people add and subtract often in their understanding of the text.
Also, you are correct in saying that submitting to baptism is an act of obedience. It is in obedience to God's commands that our faith is made perfect, or complete (James 2:22).
Add to that the fact that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to those who obey Him (Heb 5:8, 9), and we begin to understand that baptism, though an act of obedience, is neccessary for us to be saved.
I can't begin to express how dangerous it is for us to base our faith on how or what we feel. Emotions can be very easily manipulated by certain music, or by a skilled speaker.
Matt 7:21-23 describes many who undoubtably will have felt saved, and who were convinced that they were doing God's will, but will find in the end that they had been decieved.
Look back on your salvation experience. Compare it to what you can read in your New Testament. Are they the same? That's the standard, not how we might feel at one time or another.
Please understand that it is not my intention to ridicule or belittle anyone for believing what they have been taught. All of us have been taught things at some time or another that turned out not to be true.
What I am trying to do is convince people to compare their beliefs with Scripture and cast off those things which the Bible does not teach.
That being said, your change of attitude toward Christ and the desire to tell others about Him is commendable, but I've seen people equally as changed who have embraced Mohammedism, Buddhism, and a host of other "isms". A change of attitude is certainly expected in a new Christian, but is poor proof of one's standing before God.
Consider for a moment Saul of Tarsus, on his way to Damascus to persecute Christians. He saw the risen Christ, believed on Him, and repented of his sins. He spent three days fasting and praying, still blind from His encounter with Christ. But what did Ananias tell him to do? "And now why tarriest thou? Arise and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16).
After all his praying and fasting, his belief and repentance, Saul was still in his sins. He was not yet saved. It is without question that he "felt" differently than he did a few days earlier, but he was still in his sins and lost.
The thief on the cross (ttoc) was also saved under the Old Testament. Christ being still alive when He promised ttoc paradise, the New Testament was not yet brought in.
Heb 9:15-17 says,
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of neccessity be the death of the testator,
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Jesus lived and died under the Old Testament. It was in dying that the Law was fulfilled. That's why He said "It is finished". His work in the redemptive plan of God was done.
If what you say is true, there should be no trouble in giving Scripture references to show where sinners were commanded to "Ask Christ to forgive you", "Accept/believe that He is, indeed, Lord", and "Accept the pardon and love He offers".
TexasSky, I think I know what you're saying here. I have been under similar teaching. But the simple fact of the matter is that it's not found in the Bible.
Agreed, our faith must go beyond that of the demons (who possess "faith only"), but in expressing our faith through works, we must be sure that our works of obedience are works that Christ commanded. Only then can we be sure we are doing the will of God.
Not a problem in the world with your having a problem with me. I get that all the time. I won't take it personally, and I trust you know that I don't mean to offend, though I often do offend.
I didn't mean that Jesus' words had no meaning, just that for us to pray "thy kingdom come" would be to show disrespect for the church, which is His kingdom, which came on Pentecost of Acts 2.
Likewise, it would be foolish to go about the task of building an ark in preparation for a world-wide flood. That command is not applicable for us today, since the flood happened back in Gen 7-8.
For us to pray "thy kingdom come" is to pray for something that has already happened.
No, I don't. I'm saying that some things commanded of Jesus' disciples and of 1st century Christians do not always apply to us today, because of the fact that some things that were to happen in their future, have taken place in our past.
The Bible tells us when Christ would be given His kingdom. In Dan 7:13, 14, we read this prophecy,
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
We see from these verses that Christ would be given His kingdom when He came with the clouds of heaven (Acts 1:9), and when He came to (not from) the Ancient of days (The Father).
In Mark 1:9 we read that the kingdom of God would come "with power".
In Luke 24:49, we read that the apostles were to tarry in Jerusalem until they were endued with "power from on high".
In Acts 1:8, we read that the apostles would receive power when the Holy Ghost would come upon them.
And in Acts 2:4, we read that the Holy Ghost came upon them on the Pentecost following the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
With all of this in mind, we can see that the kingdom of God came with power way back in Acts 2.
You may also consider that prior to Acts 2, all references to the kingdom were in the future tense, while after Acts 2, the kingdom is always spoken of as being present.
Explain bad people doing bad things? People have free will. Many choose to do things contrary to the will of God.
Consider what is being asked in John 18. Jesus is asked by Pilate if He is the King of the Jews. The Jews were under the boot of Rome at this time. For Jesus to claim to be a king over a territory which was currently under Roman control would have been treason, and reason to put Him to death, according to the laws of man.
Pilate understood that an earthly kingdom was not what Jesus was king over, for he said of Jesus in verse 38, "I find in him no fault at all".
In Luke 17:21, Jesus said, "...the kingdom of God is within you".
What expanse of land did Christ not create? What would be His gain to exercise earthly rule over a portion of His own creation?
The kingdom of God is comprised of those human souls who have submitted to His authority, and live according to the precepts and commands found in the word of God, more specifically, the New Testament.
Not that the Old Testament is not worthy of study. I do not cast aside the Old Testament as worthless, just as being a source of authority for worship.
If I was in error, I stand corrected. But explain to me, if you will, the existence of "The Baptist Faith and Message", a pamphlet handed to me as being authoritative.
How is it that the SBC (as well as pretty much all denominations) have a "Confession of Faith", which states what each organization believes, which does not contain all of the Bible?
If one's creed-book contains less than the Bible, it contains too little.
If one's creed-book contains more than the Bible, it contains too much.
If one's creed-book contains exactly what the Bible contains, it is not needed, as we already have the Bible.
No problem with that. The question is, What has God commanded for us to obtain forgiveness under the New Testament?
I don't put any more emphasis on baptism than the Bible does. It may seem more than you're used to, but that may be because what you're used to de-emphasizes the importance of baptism.
That is a gross misrepresentation of my position, and I must say I'm shocked at your implied claim to supernatural knowledge of my mind.
I don't dismiss ANY of God's word. I just recognize the fact that not every promise in the Bible is for me.
As I've stated before, one of the biggest hindrances to intelligent discussion of the Scriptures is the idea that "I know what you believe".
I have been guilty of that mind-set in the past, and found it to be a source of embarrassment more often than not, since each person is different. Why don't we all try to refrain from knowing everything about each other's beliefs and keep searching the Scriptures for answers?
Do I need to say it again? The kingdom is here. There's no use praying for it to come. Just as there is no profit in praying for miraculous spiritual gifts. The time for those things is long since past.
Gotta tuck the children in.
In Christ,
bmerr.
T
TexasSky
Guest
Bmerr,
Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I may sound like I'm trying to be difficult, but I'm not. I really, truly don't understand some of what you are saying in regards to the scripture or in regards to how you put it.
Regarding belief
John 3:14-21 (This is to pick up verses before and after 16-18) (Christ speaking).
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up that that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life; For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemnded already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son . This is the verdict; light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
(Note, each reference is to belief as the key to salvation, non-belief resulting in condemnation, no mention of baptism itself at all.)
John 5:24 (Christ speaking) "I tell you the turth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. ;
Again - no mention of baptism as a component of forgiveness. It is an act of obedience.
John 6:47 (Once again, Christ speaking.) "I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
John 7:37-39 "On the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.By this he meant the Spirit whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Acts 10:42-47
He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed in judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him ; that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have. So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
(Note - the Holy Spirit came and filled them BEFORE they were baptized with water. Not after.)
Acts 13:38-48
"Therefore my brothre, I wan you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of MosesTake care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you. "Look, you scoffers, wonder and perish, for I am going to do something in your days that you would never believe even if someone told you." As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath. When the congretation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God. On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered ot hear the world of the Lord. WHen the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and talked abusively against what Paul was saying. Then Paul and barnabas answered them bolly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. since you reject it and do not consider yoruselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiels. For this is what the Lord has commanded us. "I have made you a light for the Gentiesl, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth." When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
(Once again - no mention of baptism as the component of salvation - only of belief. Baptism was an act of obedience.)
I could go on and on as there are many verses that refer to belief as the key to salvation.
There there is the simple fact that John the Baptist, who seemed to be correct fairly often, states in John 1:33-34 "I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water, told me, the man on whom you see the spriti come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit."
Acts 1:5 Christ "For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptised with the Holy Spirit."
Christ doesn't need water to wash away sins.
We use water to obey him and follow his example. A way of professing him before men.
As to my experience. It isn't "emotions," that I speak of. I can't possibly explain what how a Christian knows the presence of God in his life, and honestly, I shouldn't have a need to. There is, without a doubt, a change in your life when Christ moves into your life. Paul is living proof of this, as are millions of others throughout the ages, and it isn't "an emotional feeling." I wasn't on some "great musical lead emotional high," the night I asked Christ to be my Lord and savior. I was praying quietly in my room, and I went from a person who didn't really understand it all, to a person who hadto tell others about Christ, over night and instantly. It wasn't, as you seem to think, an emotional high.
I really do NOT mean to misrepresent your position in regards to the scripture. I sincerely feel that you've told me you reject the majority of God's word. You dismissed the old testament because it is pre-Christ's arrival. Yet Christ quotes it to us. You told me the Lord's Prayer doesn't apply to us because in your opinion Christ's Kingdom is here. Yet, Christ gave this prayer as an example for us. Many of your faith have, that Revelations is irrelevant for numerous reasons that fall along the lines of "Christ's kingdom is here". So I honestly am at a loss about what part of the scripture we are supposd to consider relevant in that context. You say not every promise is for you, but what you've said goes far beyond that stating that not every promise is for everyone. What you said is not about promises, it is about a tremendously large portion of the bible. From Genesis through John at least.
And you keep saying that God's Kingdom has come, and yet, that prayer says "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Do you ~really~ believe that God's will is being done here, the way it is being done in heaven?
I'm not trying to be difficult, but I am trying to understand.
Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I may sound like I'm trying to be difficult, but I'm not. I really, truly don't understand some of what you are saying in regards to the scripture or in regards to how you put it.
Regarding belief
John 3:14-21 (This is to pick up verses before and after 16-18) (Christ speaking).
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up that that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life; For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemnded already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son . This is the verdict; light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
(Note, each reference is to belief as the key to salvation, non-belief resulting in condemnation, no mention of baptism itself at all.)
John 5:24 (Christ speaking) "I tell you the turth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. ;
Again - no mention of baptism as a component of forgiveness. It is an act of obedience.
John 6:47 (Once again, Christ speaking.) "I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
John 7:37-39 "On the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.By this he meant the Spirit whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Acts 10:42-47
He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed in judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him ; that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have. So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
(Note - the Holy Spirit came and filled them BEFORE they were baptized with water. Not after.)
Acts 13:38-48
"Therefore my brothre, I wan you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of MosesTake care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you. "Look, you scoffers, wonder and perish, for I am going to do something in your days that you would never believe even if someone told you." As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath. When the congretation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God. On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered ot hear the world of the Lord. WHen the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and talked abusively against what Paul was saying. Then Paul and barnabas answered them bolly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. since you reject it and do not consider yoruselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiels. For this is what the Lord has commanded us. "I have made you a light for the Gentiesl, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth." When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
(Once again - no mention of baptism as the component of salvation - only of belief. Baptism was an act of obedience.)
I could go on and on as there are many verses that refer to belief as the key to salvation.
There there is the simple fact that John the Baptist, who seemed to be correct fairly often, states in John 1:33-34 "I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water, told me, the man on whom you see the spriti come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit."
Acts 1:5 Christ "For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptised with the Holy Spirit."
Christ doesn't need water to wash away sins.
We use water to obey him and follow his example. A way of professing him before men.
As to my experience. It isn't "emotions," that I speak of. I can't possibly explain what how a Christian knows the presence of God in his life, and honestly, I shouldn't have a need to. There is, without a doubt, a change in your life when Christ moves into your life. Paul is living proof of this, as are millions of others throughout the ages, and it isn't "an emotional feeling." I wasn't on some "great musical lead emotional high," the night I asked Christ to be my Lord and savior. I was praying quietly in my room, and I went from a person who didn't really understand it all, to a person who hadto tell others about Christ, over night and instantly. It wasn't, as you seem to think, an emotional high.
I really do NOT mean to misrepresent your position in regards to the scripture. I sincerely feel that you've told me you reject the majority of God's word. You dismissed the old testament because it is pre-Christ's arrival. Yet Christ quotes it to us. You told me the Lord's Prayer doesn't apply to us because in your opinion Christ's Kingdom is here. Yet, Christ gave this prayer as an example for us. Many of your faith have, that Revelations is irrelevant for numerous reasons that fall along the lines of "Christ's kingdom is here". So I honestly am at a loss about what part of the scripture we are supposd to consider relevant in that context. You say not every promise is for you, but what you've said goes far beyond that stating that not every promise is for everyone. What you said is not about promises, it is about a tremendously large portion of the bible. From Genesis through John at least.
And you keep saying that God's Kingdom has come, and yet, that prayer says "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Do you ~really~ believe that God's will is being done here, the way it is being done in heaven?
I'm not trying to be difficult, but I am trying to understand.
You are right TexasSky. The teaching that water baptism is a requirement for salvation is unreconcilable with scripture and real life application making it a false, unbiblical doctrine.
Hundreds upon hundreds are saved daily world wide through faith alone in Jesus Christ, many who have yet to even hear about being baptized by water. So the reallity is plain to observe. I personally was saved at age ten, went undiscipled and unchurched for twenty-five years, then was lead by God to study His Word. Once I learned about John's baptism by water, I took the plunge to declare my allegence to Jesus Christ and repentance of sin in my life before my fellow believers.
Was my faith in Jesus Christ in vain for twenty-five years? Would I have died and found myself in hell only to hear Jesus say 'well I know you were trusting in me to save you, but you wasn't baptized by water, so sorry about your luck'.
God Bless!
- Status