Featured Advice for someone doubting if he or is saved?

I don't know for sure, but it seems that this is more Paul in 2 Cor. and Peter in 2 Pet. that you are telling him to avoid than Calvinists. There does seem to be assurance given in Scripture of salvation, but apart from self-examination that certain qualities exist as a result of faith, I don't see it (not that good works means you are saved....it is what those "qualities" Peter says to look for points to...and an absence of such evidence doesn't mean one is unsaved, but it does mean there is no assurance).

 

I'll apologize now for posting a lengthy passage. I typically assume that we all have bibles and just post references, but in this instance I am posting a bit more.

One of my points is that the conclusion we are to examine ourselves for evidences of our spiritual walk in Christ is not a Calvinistic phenomenon as I believed it true long before I believed that God solely authored and effected salvation.

But to your point, I disagree. I think that much is because I hold a minority position when it comes to interpreting Scripture. This has led to times when you and I have agreed, it seems, against everyone else. But in this case it brings us at odds. I believe that Scripture is self-validating and it is consistent in its doctrine. I do not, for example, believe that James wrote of works and faith as another option to those who don’t like Paul’s teaching of works and faith. I believe that both agree but perhaps point to different aspects of that doctrine. This is not my point (let’s not get side tracked on James) but my explanation of why I disagree – Scripture is consistent).

2 Corinthians 13:5-8 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?

I agree with the article that Paul is not casting doubt on the Corinthian’s faith. Over and over again in Scripture we see what could be taken as a condemnation or a doubt expressed positively – “we expect better things of you”. I also agree that Paul is not saying “examine your faith” but instead “see that you are in the faith”. As the article correctly states, Paul does not say “test your faith” but to test yourselves to make sure that you are in the faith – see that Jesus Christ is in you – unless you fail the test. So I disagree with the article that Paul is offering a rhetorical question to say, in effect, “we are both saved because Christ is in us” (although I do agree that is the criteria).

The reason I offered my position as believing in the consistency of Scripture is the same reason I offered another passage for consideration.

2 Peter 1:1-11 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

The only assurance that the believer has of his salvation, of being “in Christ”, is his daily walk. This does not mean that a believer who stumbles into the darkness for a time is unsaved. But it does mean that a believer who is walking in the darkness has no assurance of that salvation. We test ourselves to see that we are “in the faith”, or to “make certain about His calling and choosing you”, on a daily basis not merely for assurance but to also correct where we may have wandered.

 

I disagree that spiritual introspection is akin to a "naval gazing exercise". One, I do believe that Paul is telling those in Corinth to test themselves to see that they are in the faith, that Jesus is indeed in them, lest they fail the test. And two, I believe Peter also told his audience to make certain of their calling to God's own glory by practicing those things he listed as descriptive of a Christian.

But more importantly, and not to attack you or your position here (which I may be inflating to speak of a larger issue), the sentiment that such spiritual self-examination is useless of the believer has done much damage to the Church. I recall reading John Wesley's sermon on the topic where he urged men to examine themselves to see if they are in the faith by looking to see if what their lives produce was of God or themselves. And there are Puritan authors such as John Owen who plead with people to examine themselves and root out sin in their lives. And yes, there are Calvinists who recognize the same need for such self-examination.

But now we have a "Christianity" that believes one can have saving faith without actually experiencing that power of transformation that the Church once taught, and Scripture still teaches, that it brings. Now we have "churches" who hold that a cognitive acceptance of Christ is enough to grant the golden ticket to paradise regardless of whether or not God is glorified in the process.

In other words, now we have churches that teach one can be saved, "in Christ", yet remain consumed by own desires, their own success, their own pleasures...holding a to a form of godliness although denying it's power (2 timothy 3:2-5).

Western Christianity's greatest failure is in this loosing of their "first love" in favor of a powerless faith that is useless to transform lives. Its churches' great weakness is tolerating sin within it's walls. And its Christians' great failure is in that compromise between Christ and self where true discipleship and one's spiritual walk is akin to "naval gazing".

 

I understand, but I still think that Paul is implying (here, in this passage) that we are to know ourselves, that Christ is in us, unless we indeed fail the "test". Paul speaks as one absent, saying in advance (of what may be a third visit) to those who have sinned in the past (and the rest as well) that if he comes again he will not spare anyone because they are seeking for proof of the Christ who speaks in him. Contest does matter, and I can't see that it gets any clearer...yet we disagree on this passage. And we disagree needlessly because this was but one (and not the primary) passage I offered.

So as not to confuse, I did not post in order to interpret 2 Corinthians 13:3-6. I offered it as support, but am willing to look elsewhere. My post was that Scripture does indeed teach that the assurance of our faith is found in examining ourselves to see if we are indeed in Christ. Do you find this contrary to Scripture? If so, how do you address passages that explain the believer's status "in Christ" by their walk....or the tree by the fruit....or, as Peter says, to make certain our calling (pertaining to life) and God's choosing of us? If not, then how can you compare such examination as a "naval gazing exercise"?

If I have taken exception to your reply, it was in diminishing our call to be holy as God is holy, to walk in the light, to conduct ourselves in fear, etc. as products of faith. I hope that I have not magnified your comment beyond your intent, and if so you have my sincere apology.

 

The value is to the believer. If I see myself stray then I can repent. I believe think repentance is a life long process. I may be saved and walking in the light today but be saved and walking in the dark with some aspect of my life tomorrow (I suspect every day is like this for the beluever). But our assurance that we are "in Christ" is nothing less that we are Christ in us.

By assurance through self examination I do not mean showing that one is in fact lost.

 

What you are ultimately saying is that our assurance is faith, and I agree. I don't suggest that you go to someone doubting their faith and ask them for proof of God's work in them. If someone asks that question, then the only appropriate response is to show them again the Source of their faith.

My argument was against JamesL's comment against the idea of diligently making certain of our calling and God's choosing based on those qualities Peter provides. I never opposed reminding those who are doubting their salvation of the gospel. But I do believe that if we are not "walking in the Light" then any assurances of our salvation are false ones. Again, I am not talking about doubt. I am talking about not abiding in Christ.

Often those struggles and doubts that we have are evidences themselves of our salvation as we strive to be once again centered (or have the knowledge that we are centered) in Christ.

 

I understand the confusion as I'm here every day and was just enjoying the company.

 

Thank you. I appreciate your perspective and look forward to gaining a deeper understanding of your points here. While we've agreed on much in the past, I do not believe that this is going to be one of those times but while I'm a bit apprehensive, I am also open to considering your words.

I want to make sure that I understand you so far (please correct me if I have misunderstood). Just from this point, I understand you to be saying that drawing, faith, regeneration, etc. are a part of conversion while foreknowledge, predestination, election, etc. are things that God may do in the lives of those who are saved but that are not a part of salvation itself. In other words, you and I are both saved but where God may have predestined and elected you to be a pastor, such things may be absent in my life. I may not continue in discipleship or maturity. Indeed, I may never pick up my cross at all. But I am not saved by picking up my cross, by being discipled or by maturing in the faith. I am saved by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ.

This, James, is what I understand your words to mean here. Again, if I have misunderstood then please let me know.