Advice for someone doubting if he or is saved?

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

Something I'd add

When I doubt my Salvation I look at what I was before I was Born Again, then compare that to now. The change in my life is noticeable for sure. What I watched of TV changed, the books I read, the things I believed, my outlook on life, the friends I had, how I spent my time, the music I listened to, etc, etc. Has there been a change?

Another one is when I sin, do I feel the drawing power of God calling me back to Him? Do I miss Him if I haven't prayed? Do I want to run back to him like a child returning from out of a dark holler when I sin?

May not work for you, but that's how I think of it when I doubt it.

 

[JonC]

My advice to you?

Get as far away from Calvinist doctrine as you can. Those works-mongers and fruit inspectors will have you looking at what YOU are doing, then trying to assess spiritual life according to filthy rags.

I'll tell you straight up - It was only when I left Arminianism that I found Christ, and it was only when I left Calvinism that I found assurance.

The very moment you start looking at your works to make a determination, that's when you've taken your eyes off Christ and are no longer hoping in Him alone.

I don't know for sure, but it seems that this is more Paul in 2 Cor. and Peter in 2 Pet. that you are telling him to avoid than Calvinists. There does seem to be assurance given in Scripture of salvation, but apart from self-examination that certain qualities exist as a result of faith, I don't see it (not that good works means you are saved....it is what those "qualities" Peter says to look for points to...and an absence of such evidence doesn't mean one is unsaved, but it does mean there is no assurance).

 

[JamesL]

I don't know for sure, but it seems that this is more Paul in 2 Cor. and Peter in 2 Pet. that you are telling him to avoid than Calvinists. There does seem to be assurance given in Scripture of salvation, but apart from self-examination that certain qualities exist as a result of faith, I don't see it (not that good works means you are saved....it is what those "qualities" Peter says to look for points to...and an absence of such evidence doesn't mean one is unsaved, but it does mean there is no assurance).

I'm guessing you mean 2Corinthians 13:5 where Paul says "examine yourselves" ?

I'm not one to post links to articles, but this one is really where I am with this passage..

http://www.gracelife.org/resources/gracenotes/?id=53

 

[JonShaff]

I agree...Paul was telling them to examine themselves as a way of authenticating his apostleship. Not a naval gazing exercise.

 

[JonC]

I'm guessing you mean 2Corinthians 13:5 where Paul says "examine yourselves" ?

I'm not one to post links to articles, but this one is really where I am with this passage..

http://www.gracelife.org/resources/gracenotes/?id=53

I'll apologize now for posting a lengthy passage. I typically assume that we all have bibles and just post references, but in this instance I am posting a bit more.

One of my points is that the conclusion we are to examine ourselves for evidences of our spiritual walk in Christ is not a Calvinistic phenomenon as I believed it true long before I believed that God solely authored and effected salvation.

But to your point, I disagree. I think that much is because I hold a minority position when it comes to interpreting Scripture. This has led to times when you and I have agreed, it seems, against everyone else. But in this case it brings us at odds. I believe that Scripture is self-validating and it is consistent in its doctrine. I do not, for example, believe that James wrote of works and faith as another option to those who don’t like Paul’s teaching of works and faith. I believe that both agree but perhaps point to different aspects of that doctrine. This is not my point (let’s not get side tracked on James) but my explanation of why I disagree – Scripture is consistent).

2 Corinthians 13:5-8 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?

I agree with the article that Paul is not casting doubt on the Corinthian’s faith. Over and over again in Scripture we see what could be taken as a condemnation or a doubt expressed positively – “we expect better things of you”. I also agree that Paul is not saying “examine your faith” but instead “see that you are in the faith”. As the article correctly states, Paul does not say “test your faith” but to test yourselves to make sure that you are in the faith – see that Jesus Christ is in you – unless you fail the test. So I disagree with the article that Paul is offering a rhetorical question to say, in effect, “we are both saved because Christ is in us” (although I do agree that is the criteria).

The reason I offered my position as believing in the consistency of Scripture is the same reason I offered another passage for consideration.

2 Peter 1:1-11 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

The only assurance that the believer has of his salvation, of being “in Christ”, is his daily walk. This does not mean that a believer who stumbles into the darkness for a time is unsaved. But it does mean that a believer who is walking in the darkness has no assurance of that salvation. We test ourselves to see that we are “in the faith”, or to “make certain about His calling and choosing you”, on a daily basis not merely for assurance but to also correct where we may have wandered.

 

[JonC]

I agree...Paul was telling them to examine themselves as a way of authenticating his apostleship. Not a naval gazing exercise.

I disagree that spiritual introspection is akin to a "naval gazing exercise". One, I do believe that Paul is telling those in Corinth to test themselves to see that they are in the faith, that Jesus is indeed in them, lest they fail the test. And two, I believe Peter also told his audience to make certain of their calling to God's own glory by practicing those things he listed as descriptive of a Christian.

But more importantly, and not to attack you or your position here (which I may be inflating to speak of a larger issue), the sentiment that such spiritual self-examination is useless of the believer has done much damage to the Church. I recall reading John Wesley's sermon on the topic where he urged men to examine themselves to see if they are in the faith by looking to see if what their lives produce was of God or themselves. And there are Puritan authors such as John Owen who plead with people to examine themselves and root out sin in their lives. And yes, there are Calvinists who recognize the same need for such self-examination.

But now we have a "Christianity" that believes one can have saving faith without actually experiencing that power of transformation that the Church once taught, and Scripture still teaches, that it brings. Now we have "churches" who hold that a cognitive acceptance of Christ is enough to grant the golden ticket to paradise regardless of whether or not God is glorified in the process.

In other words, now we have churches that teach one can be saved, "in Christ", yet remain consumed by own desires, their own success, their own pleasures...holding a to a form of godliness although denying it's power (2 timothy 3:2-5).

Western Christianity's greatest failure is in this loosing of their "first love" in favor of a powerless faith that is useless to transform lives. Its churches' great weakness is tolerating sin within it's walls. And its Christians' great failure is in that compromise between Christ and self where true discipleship and one's spiritual walk is akin to "naval gazing".

 

[JonShaff]

I'm cool with "testing" of one's faith, but I don't believe that's the goal of this passage...so please don't confuse me Jon.

2 Corinthians 13:3-6 Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.
For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Keeping it in context, does it get clearer than that?

 

[JonC]

I'm cool with "testing" of one's faith, but I don't believe that's the goal of this passage...so please don't confuse me Jon.

2 Corinthians 13:3-6 Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.
For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Keeping it in context, does it get clearer than that?

I understand, but I still think that Paul is implying (here, in this passage) that we are to know ourselves, that Christ is in us, unless we indeed fail the "test". Paul speaks as one absent, saying in advance (of what may be a third visit) to those who have sinned in the past (and the rest as well) that if he comes again he will not spare anyone because they are seeking for proof of the Christ who speaks in him. Contest does matter, and I can't see that it gets any clearer...yet we disagree on this passage. And we disagree needlessly because this was but one (and not the primary) passage I offered.

So as not to confuse, I did not post in order to interpret 2 Corinthians 13:3-6. I offered it as support, but am willing to look elsewhere. My post was that Scripture does indeed teach that the assurance of our faith is found in examining ourselves to see if we are indeed in Christ. Do you find this contrary to Scripture? If so, how do you address passages that explain the believer's status "in Christ" by their walk....or the tree by the fruit....or, as Peter says, to make certain our calling (pertaining to life) and God's choosing of us? If not, then how can you compare such examination as a "naval gazing exercise"?

If I have taken exception to your reply, it was in diminishing our call to be holy as God is holy, to walk in the light, to conduct ourselves in fear, etc. as products of faith. I hope that I have not magnified your comment beyond your intent, and if so you have my sincere apology.

 

[JonShaff]

I understand, but I still think that Paul is implying (here, in this passage) that we are to know ourselves, that Christ is in us, unless we indeed fail the "test". Paul speaks as one absent, saying in advance (of what may be a third visit) to those who have sinned in the past (and the rest as well) that if he comes again he will not spare anyone because they are seeking for proof of the Christ who speaks in him. Contest does matter, and I can't see that it gets any clearer...yet we disagree on this passage. And we disagree needlessly because this was but one (and not the primary) passage I offered.

So as not to confuse, I did not post in order to interpret 2 Corinthians 13:3-6. I offered it as support, but am willing to look elsewhere. My post was that Scripture does indeed teach that the assurance of our faith is found in examining ourselves to see if we are indeed in Christ. Do you find this contrary to Scripture? If so, how do you address passages that explain the believer's status "in Christ" by their walk....or the tree by the fruit....or, as Peter says, to make certain our calling (pertaining to life) and God's choosing of us? If not, then how can you compare such examination as a "naval gazing exercise"?

If I have taken exception to your reply, it was in diminishing our call to be holy as God is holy, to walk in the light, to conduct ourselves in fear, etc. as products of faith. I hope that I have not magnified your comment beyond your intent, and if so you have my sincere apology.

I agree with your sentiments, introspection can be healthy, however, i have seen it take it's toll on people. When we take our eyes off of Christ, the Author and Finisher of our Faith, we start to sink like Peter did when he took his eyes off the Master of the Seas. I believe there is a balance. The question is, to what end do we examine? When i read/hear the Word, the Holy Spirit does the revealing. My part is to have an open ear and a receptive heart, fully laid down at the altar of God so that He would consume the sacrifice of my Life for His glory. In short, i think it's deeper than just, "Examination is necessary." As ministers, we need to explain and exhort as to what the Scriptures really mean by that. Like James said,

James 1
24 and after observing himself goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But the one who looks intently into the perfect law of freedom, and continues to do so — not being a forgetful hearer, but an effective doer — he will be blessed in what he does.

It's a constant cleansing of God's word in our lives. And if we happen to find ourselves not, "In Christ", as we are comparing ourselves with the Word of God, I expect the Spirit of God and Word of God to do what They did in all the other honest hearers, cause them to be Born again.

 

[JonC]

I agree with your sentiments, introspection can be healthy, however, i have seen it take it's toll on people. When we take our eyes off of Christ, the Author and Finisher of our Faith, we start to sink like Peter did when he took his eyes off the Master of the Seas. I believe there is a balance. The question is, to what end do we examine? When i read/hear the Word, the Holy Spirit does the revealing. My part is to have an open ear and a receptive heart, fully laid down at the altar of God so that He would consume the sacrifice of my Life for His glory. In short, i think it's deeper than just, "Examination is necessary." As ministers, we need to explain and exhort as to what the Scriptures really mean by that. Like James said,

James 1
24 and after observing himself goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But the one who looks intently into the perfect law of freedom, and continues to do so — not being a forgetful hearer, but an effective doer — he will be blessed in what he does.

It's a constant cleansing of God's word in our lives. And if we happen to find ourselves not, "In Christ", as we are comparing ourselves with the Word of God, I expect the Spirit of God and Word of God to do what They did in all the other honest hearers, cause them to be Born again.

The value is to the believer. If I see myself stray then I can repent. I believe think repentance is a life long process. I may be saved and walking in the light today but be saved and walking in the dark with some aspect of my life tomorrow (I suspect every day is like this for the beluever). But our assurance that we are "in Christ" is nothing less that we are Christ in us.

By assurance through self examination I do not mean showing that one is in fact lost.

 

[JonShaff]

The value is to the believer. If I see myself stray then I can repent. I believe think repentance is a life long process. I may be saved and walking in the light today but be saved and walking in the dark with some aspect of my life tomorrow (I suspect every day is like this for the beluever). But our assurance that we are "in Christ" is nothing less that we are Christ in us.

By assurance through self examination I do not mean showing that one is in fact lost.

I agree with what you say; Repentance is a lifestyle, introspection can be healthy, fruit production should be a by-product of someone who is truly in Christ.

I just believe, because i've experienced it myself personally and have dealt with it as a pastor, that the constant looking to self for assurance can be counterproductive. The Bible says we look to Christ/His Word for Assurance

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[JonC]

I agree with what you say; Repentance is a lifestyle, introspection can be healthy, fruit production should be a by-product of someone who is truly in Christ.

I just believe, because i've experienced it myself personally and have dealt with it as a pastor, that the constant looking to self for assurance can be counterproductive. The Bible says we look to Christ/His Word for Assurance

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

What you are ultimately saying is that our assurance is faith, and I agree. I don't suggest that you go to someone doubting their faith and ask them for proof of God's work in them. If someone asks that question, then the only appropriate response is to show them again the Source of their faith.

My argument was against JamesL's comment against the idea of diligently making certain of our calling and God's choosing based on those qualities Peter provides. I never opposed reminding those who are doubting their salvation of the gospel. But I do believe that if we are not "walking in the Light" then any assurances of our salvation are false ones. Again, I am not talking about doubt. I am talking about not abiding in Christ.

Often those struggles and doubts that we have are evidences themselves of our salvation as we strive to be once again centered (or have the knowledge that we are centered) in Christ.

 

[JonShaff]

What you are ultimately saying is that our assurance is faith, and I agree. I don't suggest that you go to someone doubting their faith and ask them for proof of God's work in them. If someone asks that question, then the only appropriate response is to show them again the Source of their faith.

My argument was against JamesL's comment against the idea of diligently making certain of our calling and God's choosing based on those qualities Peter provides. I never opposed reminding those who are doubting their salvation of the gospel. But I do believe that if we are not "walking in the Light" then any assurances of our salvation are false ones. Again, I am not talking about doubt. I am talking about not abiding in Christ.

Often those struggles and doubts that we have are evidences themselves of our salvation as we strive to be once again centered (or have the knowledge that we are centered) in Christ.

I understand your sentiments...and while, you were addressing me, you were really addressing James and it sort of Got confusing lol. I think we were basically talking past each other. Lol

 

[JonC]

I understand your sentiments...and while, you were addressing me, you were really addressing James and it sort of Got confusing lol. I think we were basically talking past each other. Lol

I understand the confusion as I'm here every day and was just enjoying the company.

 

[JamesL]

...My argument was against JamesL's comment against the idea of diligently making certain of our calling and God's choosing based on those qualities Peter provides.....

I've read everything in the thread, haven't had opportunity to post yet. Before I attempt to explain Peter's passage, I think it would be more fruitful for me to state a position.

I believe you're making a fundamental error in conflating two distinct aspects of salvation.

On one hand, there is drawing, enlightenment, faith, justification, regeneration, and all that is involved in being brought from darkness to light.

On another hand is foreknowledge, predestination, election, calling, picking up our cross, discipleship, works and all that is involved in some (not all) believers maturing toward sonship (and an inheritance)

The two are distinct. For sure, Peter is telling us to work at making our calling and election sure.

Just as Paul wrote :
Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve. (Col 3:23-24)

I'll get back a little later...

 

[JonShaff]

Just to throw it in there...

Here is a list of thoughts that derived from a bible study I was a part of a couple months ago concerning 2 Corinthians 13-


Paul Warns of discipline, defends his apostolic office and teachings and exhorts the Corinthians to be Godly. Paul hopes this all gets cleared up before he sees them again in person.

As we read the Scriptures sincerely we recieve the discipline, assurance and encouragment we need to live pleasing to the Lord.


Vs.7 He cares more about their growth than him being an effective leader.


Another big theme...

The Sheep's maturity is a potential confirmation of The Pastor's AND leader's call at a congregation.

But regardless, the truth is what is to be believed and obeyed.

Finally...

The Leadership of the Church should seek to establish Truth, Godliness, peace and discipline for the edification of the Local Body of Christ.

at the same time the members should respond to spiritual discipline, godly exhortation and Biblical Truth by living a life that is pleasing to the One who died for them, Jesus Christ.

 

[JonC]

I've read everything in the thread, haven't had opportunity to post yet. Before I attempt to explain Peter's passage, I think it would be more fruitful for me to state a position.

I believe you're making a fundamental error in conflating two distinct aspects of salvation.

On one hand, there is drawing, enlightenment, faith, justification, regeneration, and all that is involved in being brought from darkness to light.

On another hand is foreknowledge, predestination, election, calling, picking up our cross, discipleship, works and all that is involved in some (not all) believers maturing toward sonship (and an inheritance)

The two are distinct. For sure, Peter is telling us to work at making our calling and election sure.

Just as Paul wrote :
Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve. (Col 3:23-24)

I'll get back a little later...

Thank you. I appreciate your perspective and look forward to gaining a deeper understanding of your points here. While we've agreed on much in the past, I do not believe that this is going to be one of those times but while I'm a bit apprehensive, I am also open to considering your words.

I want to make sure that I understand you so far (please correct me if I have misunderstood). Just from this point, I understand you to be saying that drawing, faith, regeneration, etc. are a part of conversion while foreknowledge, predestination, election, etc. are things that God may do in the lives of those who are saved but that are not a part of salvation itself. In other words, you and I are both saved but where God may have predestined and elected you to be a pastor, such things may be absent in my life. I may not continue in discipleship or maturity. Indeed, I may never pick up my cross at all. But I am not saved by picking up my cross, by being discipled or by maturing in the faith. I am saved by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ.

This, James, is what I understand your words to mean here. Again, if I have misunderstood then please let me know.

 

[JamesL]

Thank you. I appreciate your perspective and look forward to gaining a deeper understanding of your points here. While we've agreed on much in the past, I do not believe that this is going to be one of those times but while I'm a bit apprehensive, I am also open to considering your words.

ditto

I'm really a big fan of yours

...I understand you to be saying that drawing, faith, regeneration, etc. are a part of conversion while foreknowledge, predestination, election, etc. are things that God may do in the lives of those who are saved but that are not a part of salvation itself. In other words, you and I are both saved but where God may have predestined and elected you to be a pastor, such things may be absent in my life. I may not continue in discipleship or maturity. Indeed, I may never pick up my cross at all. But I am not saved by picking up my cross, by being discipled or by maturing in the faith. I am saved by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ.

This, James, is what I understand your words to mean here. Again, if I have misunderstood then please let me know.

Not quite. I don't believe calling and election are unto earthly service, as in God calling someone to preach.

I believe it relates to foreknowledge and predestination. Paul said that in everything, God is working to good for those who love Him. And that is in the context of suffering, and being led by the Spirit (Rom 8)

"those He foreknew" means NOT that God knew ahead of time what some people would do, or that some people would become believers (though He knows both). It means He knew some people intimately before the world was made (not as in a Pre-existence) - those who He foreknew as sons (huios), or heirs.

There's a circular happening, in other words. God has ordained that those who do good will receive an inheritance from Him. Incidentally, that's the beginning of Paul's gospel (Rom 2:10). Paul goes on to say that the problem is that there's no one who does good. we've all sinned.

So there's redemption, justification, regeneration, etc...and the Spirit inside, That's how we do what is good.

God foreknew those who would follow the Spirit, and predestined their path of being conformed to the image of Christ (which is the result of following the Spirit).

Not every believer will be conformed to the image of Christ. Not every believer follows the Spirit. Not every believer will become a son - an heir with Christ