Water and Blood

So it's not by works; It's just "walking in the light". Well, what is walking in the light? Not walking in darkness, but "practicing truth" and "keeping His commandments". What is practicing truth and eeping commandments? Doing good works!
Of course, this only shows that the good works (walking in truth/commandments) is evidence of us being in the light. If you would acknowledge that, then we would have agreement; but you keep denying that; insisting on deeds themselves as if they determined salvation. But once you go there, then perfection is required (Gal.3:10), because there is no other line between "light" and "darkness".

Once again; water was the symbol of this; not what washed or saved them in itself.

Who said anything about salvation outside the church/body?

Because since it is Christ we are actually baptized INTO, and Christ is not a pool of water; therefore; that can only be a symbol.

 

Yes, those are God's words. And they don't contradict. "practicing the truth" there is clearly an evidence of walking in the light. But once again, we cannot make one particular work the dividing line between light and darkness.

Walls don't have faith. It was the Israelites' faith that led them to follow God's command, and since the wall falling was conditional on that, it was sort of a reward. Salvation draws upon those examples as far as the principle of "faith" is concerned, but the analogy only goes but so far. Dalvation today is clearly contrasted with those earthly forms of "salvation" (military victory, etc) that were based on works. It is all spiritual now.

Then what is? You're not really telling us. You keep saying faith aloone is not enough, works are required, and now you're saying it is not works, but grace, and then redefinig it as works ("practice truth"/keeping commands") again.

And all you have done is changed days of worship, and thrown out one set of rituals, and substitute another (baptism); but otherwise, it is completely "the Law of commandments" you are focused on.

They were supposed to, but as I have been explaining; t became separated when baptism became associated with Church membership. (The altar call sort of took its place). This may not have been authorized by the NT, but then I am not going to deny someone I lead to Christ salvation because I was not able to dunk him on the spot.

 

He is in the church as soon as he receives Christ. By one spirit are we baptized into the body, and that is what is important. While Frank says that he baptizes on the spot; do you? Or do you make them wait until they officially "join the Church" after teaching tham all the doctrines and practices? Do not get "official church membership" confused with becoming a mamber of "the Body".

 

Got some chores to do. Also the continuing you may which to answer separately that which follows pertaining to your original post. Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12.

[ June 05, 2005, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: ituttut ]

 

Continued to mman from ituttut:

imman is in bold.

In the original post on this thread, I laid out how we get INTO Christ, into the Church, and in contact with the blood that washes away our sins. So far, all I have received is a bunch of rocks thrown at what I stated, while no one as of yet, has shown through the scriptures any other way we can get INTO Christ, into the church or in contact with the blood. Yes, some have quoted verses that do not tell us how to get INTO Christ saying that is the way, while ignoring verses that deal directly with that very subject.

ituttut: I gave answer to your original of which you refuse, so let me explain another way and see if you will agree.

This seems to be your main trust, of which is quoted here from your original. Quote “Did you ever wonder why blood and water came forth from Jesus' side (John 19:34). The Spirit, water and blood all agree as one according to I John 5:8. On the day of Pentecost, the spirit was talking though Peter (ACts 2:4). Acts 2:38 Then Peter (Spirit - talking though Peter) said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized (water) in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins (blood - see also Matt 26:28); and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Here we have the Spirit, water and blood all agreeing.” Unquote.

Then you immediately say, Quote “We are saved by grace through faith, how wonderful.” Unquote. Where did you find this information of “Through Faith”? Not while Jesus was on earth, and not after Pentecost with the “great commission” gospel. To find the truth that you speak of how wonderful, you first must wait until you hear Paul inform you of this.

It is wonderful what Christ Jesus revealed to Paul some few years after Pentecost. You have just entered into the Gospel of Paul without realizing you just moved from one dispensation to another. Pentecost came with water, and blood, with the Holy Ghost as promised to the 120 at Pentecost. Isn’t it amazing of all the thousands, and most likely millions of Jews in Judah and Israel, a measly 120 showed up. Many talked the good game, but stayed away for the price to high to pay.

There was not one Gentile among them, and was not until Cornelius some few years later was the first Gentile to be preached at, or to, by an Earthly disciple of Jesus.

Nowhere in the Bible will you find salvation throughfaith of Jesus Christ, until it is revealed to Paul. I can see where I might agree with your assessment within your quote above for Israel, but no Gentile is included. They could not be for salvation today of the Gentile, for it was not known until Paul. Search the scriptures, and you will see this is so. Christ from heaven revealed a new dispensational gospel to His only heavenly appointed Apostle. When we come to see this division, it rids the teaching of man of the contradictions they make, for the Word does not contradict.

Just suppose for a minute that I am right (I know, heresy to some). I believe in Jesus and he is my Lord and Savior. I believed him when he said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved". Just suppose that Gal 3:26-27 really does mean that we are childern of God by faith because we have been baptized into Christ. Let's just suppose that baptism is for the remission of sins and the same phase means the same thing in both Acts 2:38 and Matt 26:28.

Acts 2:38, ”Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” I believe Peter as he speaks to the children of Israel as he informs in Acts 2:36, ” Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,….”

Matt. 26:28,and then also verse 29: ”For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 - But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.”

Is it YOU that Jesus is talking to? It is not me, but those he is talking to. Do we presume to invite ourselves to His Table? We must understand things in the kingdom of God. Christ has His kingdom, and Christ gives to His earthly Apostles their own kingdom, and these will sit at His, Christ Jesus table as we see in Luke 22:29-30., ”And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30. That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

Is that ME? Is that YOU? Is there anyone other than whom Christ says will sit at His Table? Perhaps somewhere in eternity we may be invited, and it is not an impossibility, but we certainly must think we are “hot stuff” thinking Jesus is going to include us with those that went “through temptations” with him from the beginning of His ministry – ”Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations”, Luke 22:28.

Let's just suppose that we are saved by grace through faith, just like it is described above.

Not supposing here, for this is given us by the Grace of God, through Jesus Christ

Lets just suppose that I am right when I say we are not saved by any works of man, that we cannot merit one microsecond of our eternal salvation. Let's just suppose that baptism is not a work since the bible nowhere calls it a work, but an act of faith. Let's suppose that after one gets into Christ, he will not live perfectly or a sinless life, but as long as he remains in the light, Jesus' blood will cleanse us of all sin (I John 1:7).

I believe I said in my previous post, you are of “Lordship salvation”, and that automatically puts you into the “works” camp, for you must work to continue to be saved, and that is those saved as the Pentecostal church, which is just the same as the Catholic church, if I am not mistaken. The gospel of Paul to the Gentile is of eternal salvation at our believing in our heart that Jesus Christ saves, and we are sealed. Are you not saying someone is stronger than God, and the Spirit of God cannot hold we that are in the Body of Christ. If anybody can do that then they are strong enough to take Christ Jesus, the Son of God from God the Father.

We accept the gift, and one can believe someone, or thing can nullify the Word of God?

Let's just suppose that worship must be according to truth and not what man likes or dislikes. Let's just suppose that many people will be lost who call Jesus Lord, and that the way really is narrow. Let's just suppose that there is such a thing as vain worship, that God really did tell us how to worship him and did not leave it up to man. Let's just suppose that there is only one way INTO Christ. If I were right, what would it take to change your mind?

Prove to me that You are God.

I will then believe you, and not Christ Jesus, the only begotten Son of God that told Paul to tell me, ituttut, you heathen dog, I love you, for this was my purpose from the beginning. From the beginning you went after other idols. I sat you aside, and I then created my own people, and they did just as you. But I, God so loved the world that whosever believes in me shall never perish. I, God as the Word/Son wish you to be like me, and be with me in heaven. You are now part of me and will be with me forever. It was not so from the beginning, for you turned me down, and then my own people did also, I chose Saul/Paul as my only heavenly Apostle, and gave him his own gospel for those in your dispensation, if only they will believe, for ”.. to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7. Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin”, Romans 4:4-8.

I really believe you and I are that man.

Oh yes, the blood and water. I believe you will find that Christ Jesus, the Word of God is the Water of life, and we believe this, coming through His blood at the Cross with Him, becoming dead to sin and the Law, and will bodily arise to meet Him in the air to be with Him forever, and being as He is, yet not knowing what we shall be. Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12.

 

The great Baptist scholar Beasley-Murray has already demonstrated that eis here means 'for'. Even Robertson acknowledged that it could mean 'for' here and that is was only his carnal enlightenment philosophy that made him go with a less likely meaning.“For it is his will that all who have believed, be baptized for the remission of sins.” Calvin, The Institutes of the Christian Religion, 4:15:1.
"Christ by baptism has made us partakers of his death, engrafting us into it. And as the twig derives substance and nourishment from the root to which it is attached, so those who receive baptism with true faith truly feel the efficacy of Christ’s death in the mortification of their flesh, and the efficacy of his resurrection in the quickening of the Spirit." Ibid. 4:15:5-6.

One more thing ... The Church is NOT the kingdom! The kingdom was had come to earth when Jesus came. It was in the midst of them. It was preached from the time of John. The Kingdom had come upon them. The Church did not begin until the day of pentecost, which was the 'day of the assembly'. The Church is to live in the kingdom realm, and is to bear witness to the kingdom, but it is not the kingdom.

 

So you do not take them to join the church of Christ, and indoctrinaste them about instruments, communion every week, etc? You baptize them and just let them go fellowship wherever they want?

I don't.
What you have describd is the ideal I believe in; but it's just that every group, including the Church of Christ as far as I have seen, wants to take the convert into their own organization. This is why baptism and salvation became separated; because it was put off until indoctrination was complete. This may not have been authorized by God; but it is what organized Christianity does, and none of us by ourselves can change it.

 

It amazes me that people cannot give praise where praise is due. The so called Church of Christ does alot of things right, and it should be acknowledged. Of course they have no position to claim the exclusive position they do. They have not returned to the NT pattern, and therefore they cannot unchurch everyone else without unchurching themselves. But weekly communion, baptising on the spot, not using instruments, is the practice of the first century church (and for a long time after). Every church used to believe that baptism enrolled a person in the Church ... even the early baptists and the anabaptists before them. the idea of a local church as a covenanted association is puritan in origin - nothing to do with teh apostles.

 

mark 9:1 speaks of those standing there, that they would not see death till the kingdom came in power. This is speaking of a coming of the kingdom - a consumating coming, though not the end of the age consumation. The fact that Jesus said that some would not die, indicates that this coming was not soon after. It was, I believe, the kingdom coming in power manifesting itself in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish nation in 70 AD. But Jesus said that the kingdom was already in their midst. John said the kingdom was near at hand. Jesus said that if demons are cast out, than is the kingdom already here. The church is the community of the kingdom, whose job is to make known the kingdom through the works of the kingdom.

 

I suppose that they would be a body of believers, though possibly not a church in the NT sense, unless they had a new testament ministry to guide them. Where is this ministry? The 'restoration movement' never addressed this. There are areas where the RM never did restore the NT pattern of the laying on of the hands for the Holy Spirit, or the Timothy ministry, or widows, or elders properly ordained and disciplined. The RM was another movement, along with many others, who thought that they alone had returned to the NT. Some have certainly been more consistent and closer to the NT than the RM.

 

</font>[/QUOTE]Are you speaking of IFB churches?

 

I don't know what an IFB church is, but if it has anything to do with you than definately not!

 

This is a debate forum, not a personal attack forum. Further remarks will be deleted. I would advise you to get an education about IFB churches if you don't know what one is before posting such.
DHK