Water and Blood

[mman]

Originally posted by Eric B:
the scriptures would support it, for one thing.
Just what is "in the light", then? You have not yet told us. Since it is all a works-based system (whether you call baptism a "work" or not, because obviously that is really not enough anyway), then there must either be a limit to the amount of works that place us "in the light", or, perfection is required. So all we are getting from you is a bunch of "supposes". The ones who aren't in the light and will call Jesus Lord, but be lost are the ones who think they are justifying themselves by works. Why else do you think that Jesus told those religious leaders that harlots and robbers (people truly practicing "lawnessness") would enter before they did. Accusations of "what man likes or dislikes", or "leave it up to man" mean nothing, when you change the gospel to something man earns (which is truly what man "likes", and is "up to man"!)
You yourself said how we et into Christ: we are "baptized" into Christ; but this is the spiritual baptism into the body; symbolized by the water, but not equating a water ceremony.

No wonder you don't agree. You don't understand what I'm saying. First, it is NOT a works based system. It is a faith based system. No one can work or earn any part of salvation. You cannot obligate God to save you by any amount of good works.

Works do not place us in the light. We cannot earn our place in the light.

What does it mean to walk in the light? I John 1:7 simply says "If we walk in the light...".

Lets back up a little to verse 5, "This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

First, God is light. Next, if we do not practice the truth, we are walking in darkness. Walking in the light is practicing the truth.


Later in Chapter 2 starting in verse 3, "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Will we walk perfectly? Of course not. Verse 7 says that along with verses 8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

You yourself said how we (g)et into Christ: we are "baptized" into Christ; but this is the spiritual baptism into the body; symbolized by the water, but not equating a water ceremony.

I think you are alluding to I Cor 12:13 which states, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit."

We are immersed into one body. We know the body is the Church (Eph 1:22-23, Col 1:18). How was this done in Acts 2?

The apostles were the ones who were baptized with the Holy Spirit, speaking as the spirit gave them utterance (Acts 2:4, 11:15-16). It came upon them, not because of anything they did, but to fulfill a promise. It was manifest by them speaking in a language that they had not learned.

The believers in Acts 2:37 asked what they needed to do. If you had been in the crowd that day and you wanted to receive the remission of sins, what would you have done.

I would have done what those 3000 did in Acts 2:41 in response to what they were told to do in Acts 2:38. Verse 41 says they were added, to what? Verse 47 says the church.

They were added to the church at baptism. It is generally accepted that this is water baptism. Who was added to the church? Those who were being saved? Who added them? The Lord.

To think that one is saved outside the blood bought church would make the church unnecessary for salvation. Yet, Christ is savior of the body (Church) according to Eph 5:23 and is adding those who are being saved to the Church, as already stated.

but this is the spiritual baptism into the body; symbolized by the water, but not equating a water ceremony.

Interesting concept. Where did it come from?

 

[Eric B]

So it's not by works; It's just "walking in the light". Well, what is walking in the light? Not walking in darkness, but "practicing truth" and "keeping His commandments". What is practicing truth and eeping commandments? Doing good works!
Of course, this only shows that the good works (walking in truth/commandments) is evidence of us being in the light. If you would acknowledge that, then we would have agreement; but you keep denying that; insisting on deeds themselves as if they determined salvation. But once you go there, then perfection is required (Gal.3:10), because there is no other line between "light" and "darkness".

How was this done in Acts 2?

Once again; water was the symbol of this; not what washed or saved them in itself.

To think that one is saved outside the blood bought church would make the church unnecessary for salvation. Yet, Christ is savior of the body (Church) according to Eph 5:23 and is adding those who are being saved to the Church, as already stated.

Who said anything about salvation outside the church/body?

Interesting concept. Where did it come from?

Because since it is Christ we are actually baptized INTO, and Christ is not a pool of water; therefore; that can only be a symbol.

 

[mman]

Originally posted by Eric B:
So it's not by works; It's just "walking in the light". Well, what is walking in the light? Not walking in darkness, but "practicing truth" and "keeping His commandments". What is practicing truth and eeping commandments? Doing good works!

Those are not my words, but God's words. Can someone not practice the truth and still be in the light? Can someone know God and not keep his commandments? Is faith without works dead?

Do those works save us or earn us anything? Of course not. When the children of Israel marched around the walls of Jericho as instructed, did that earn them anything? No, God didn't owe them for their works and pay them what they earned?

The walls of Jericho fell by faith.

Of course, this only shows that the good works (walking in truth/commandments) is evidence of us being in the light. If you would acknowledge that, then we would have agreement; but you keep denying that; insisting on deeds themselves as if they determined salvation. But once you go there, then perfection is required (Gal.3:10), because there is no other line between "light" and "darkness".

I don't have a problem with your first statement. But good works alone are not evidence of being in the light. In Matt 7:21, many people will have good works, yet be denied. Those folks were not walking in the light.

At the same time, good works don't earn salvation, or any part of it. We are saved by grace and you can't earn grace.

But, if we do not practice the truth or keep his commands we cannot be walking in the light or "know" God.

Does this mean we are earning our salvation? NO!!! It means we have faith, a complete faith that is not dead.

Your reference to Gal 3:10 is a reference to keeping the old law that was nailed to the cross. The old law that brought us to Christ. The old law that was not perfect, could not provide justification. Justification is by faith. 24Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. (the old law) 26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

As far as the baptism, I'm not quite sure I understand what you believe? Do the spirit baptism and water baptism (the one baptism in Eph 4:5) occur at the same time, in your view?

 

[Eric B]

Those are not my words, but God's words. Can someone not practice the truth and still be in the light? Can someone know God and not keep his commandments? Is faith without works dead?

Yes, those are God's words. And they don't contradict. "practicing the truth" there is clearly an evidence of walking in the light. But once again, we cannot make one particular work the dividing line between light and darkness.

Do those works save us or earn us anything? Of course not. When the children of Israel marched around the walls of Jericho as instructed, did that earn them anything? No, God didn't owe them for their works and pay them what they earned?

The walls of Jericho fell by faith.

Walls don't have faith. It was the Israelites' faith that led them to follow God's command, and since the wall falling was conditional on that, it was sort of a reward. Salvation draws upon those examples as far as the principle of "faith" is concerned, but the analogy only goes but so far. Dalvation today is clearly contrasted with those earthly forms of "salvation" (military victory, etc) that were based on works. It is all spiritual now.

But good works alone are not evidence of being in the light. In Matt 7:21, many people will have good works, yet be denied. Those folks were not walking in the light. At the same time, good works don't earn salvation, or any part of it. We are saved by grace and you can't earn grace.

But, if we do not practice the truth or keep his commands we cannot be walking in the light or "know" God.

Does this mean we are earning our salvation? NO!!! It means we have faith, a complete faith that is not dead.

Then what is? You're not really telling us. You keep saying faith aloone is not enough, works are required, and now you're saying it is not works, but grace, and then redefinig it as works ("practice truth"/keeping commands") again.

Your reference to Gal 3:10 is a reference to keeping the old law that was nailed to the cross. The old law that brought us to Christ. The old law that was not perfect, could not provide justification. Justification is by faith. 24Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. (the old law) 26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

And all you have done is changed days of worship, and thrown out one set of rituals, and substitute another (baptism); but otherwise, it is completely "the Law of commandments" you are focused on.

As far as the baptism, I'm not quite sure I understand what you believe? Do the spirit baptism and water baptism (the one baptism in Eph 4:5) occur at the same time, in your view?

They were supposed to, but as I have been explaining; t became separated when baptism became associated with Church membership. (The altar call sort of took its place). This may not have been authorized by the NT, but then I am not going to deny someone I lead to Christ salvation because I was not able to dunk him on the spot.

 

[mman]

They were supposed to, but as I have been explaining; t became separated when baptism became associated with Church membership. (The altar call sort of took its place). This may not have been authorized by the NT, but then I am not going to deny someone I lead to Christ salvation because I was not able to dunk him on the spot.

So are you saying a person is saved before he is in the church?

They were suppose to?

Why are they now seperated?

Who separated it?

Not authorized? Then this originates from man?

You are not going to deny salvation??? Are you making the determination based on things not authorized?

Wow, this really catches me by surprise that someone would admit all this!

 

[Eric B]

He is in the church as soon as he receives Christ. By one spirit are we baptized into the body, and that is what is important. While Frank says that he baptizes on the spot; do you? Or do you make them wait until they officially "join the Church" after teaching tham all the doctrines and practices? Do not get "official church membership" confused with becoming a mamber of "the Body".

 

[mman]

Originally posted by Eric B:
He is in the church as soon as he receives Christ. By one spirit are we baptized into the body, and that is what is important. While Frank says that he baptizes on the spot; do you? Or do you make them wait until they officially "join the Church" after teaching tham all the doctrines and practices? Do not get "official church membership" confused with becoming a mamber of "the Body".

Of course I baptize on the spot. Never is there any example or instruction to wait. In the New Testament, people were baptized immediately. Christ adds to the Church. Never is anyone instructed to join anything. This concept that you are speaking of, seems foreign to the New Testament teaching.

The Body is the church (Eph 1:22-23, Col 1:18). Christ adds those being saved to the Chruch (Acts 2:47).

How can you say church membership is different than becoming a member of the body when the church is the body????

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by mman:
Of course, in Mark 16:16, the believe and baptized are two different things. But when both are accomplished, the person could be classified as a believer or one of those who believe, as in Acts 2:44 or Acts 16:34 or in any of the other places already listed in previous posts.

Hello mman. Been on another board, also another Forum on this board, and have gotten way behind.

Then are you saying you adhere to works tied to grace, both before and after salvation? Romans 11:6, ”And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” Regardless what people say, James does not agree with Paul.

You Acts 2:44, ”And all that believed were together, and had all things common.” What did all believe? ”Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” This is what the Catholic church believes. Is this what you believe?

I don’t accept the “great commission” to be part of my salvation. Many do say they believe the “great commission”, but so many have no idea what the “great commission” includes, and the others in someway twist Mark 16:16 to say Jesus Christ really could not mean this, for they know they must believe the gospel of Paul which gospel says we are saved by Grace, through faith, the free gift that cannot be accepted if we believe we must do a work.

The Acts 2:44 of the Jewish believers speaks of all things common daily in the Temple (that Temple was destroyed), and the Christian later had to help out those of the Pentecostal faith of the “great commission”, for that was the “kingdom gospel” of John the Baptist to the Jew, and then to the Gentile after the house of Israel accepted Messiah. That has not happened to date, as God today sees the Israelite just as we idol worshippers, of which Israel had become. Can you prove otherwise by scripture?

Heb 3:18-19 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

Amen! And the same happened in the dispensation of Jesus when He warned the house of Israel in a parable that they could be cut-off in their unbelief, and that is what happened when they killed Stephen. But a few years later came Damascus Road as God began the process of reconciling of the world unto himself, and we Gentiles were then included. Any scripture to disprove?

However please note what book you have just quoted. It is the book to the Hebrews, and not the Gentiles. The Temple was still standing, and there were two gospels going on at this time. Take a look at Hebrews 3:14, which was in the dispensation of the author of Hebrews. ”For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end”. The Temple was still standing, and these Jews were not saved as the Gentiles, of being sealed on believing, but they were to endure until the end, just as in the dispensation you address below. Do you believe the writer here in Hebrews 3:14?

Now did all these people (maybe more than an million) stop believing in God? They had just witnessed the 10 plagues, complied with the instructions of the passover, walked on dry ground through the Red Sea with a wall of water on each side, witnessed the drowning of the persuing Egyptians, while being led by the cloud and pillar of fire.

See above. Christianity was not known at that time.

Ex 14:31 states, "And Israel saw that great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians: and the people feared the LORD, and believed the LORD, and his servant Moses."

Old Testament written only to God’s own nation.

Numbers 13 and 14 tell the sad story. Numbers 14:3 "Why is the LORD bringing us into this land, to fall by the sword? Our wives and our little ones will become plunder; would it not be better for us to return to Egypt?"

Old Testament.

They knew the Lord had brought them to where they were. Yet in Numbers 14:11, The LORD said to Moses, "How long will these people reject Me? And how long will they not believe Me, with all the signs which I have performed among them?

His people are “stiff necked people”.

These people believed in God, yet they did not believe God. They were not obedient.

Amen!

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Those of the house of Israel must endure until the end as John says here. If they believe and obey, they will have eternal life. His people made covenant with God. They are the only one’s God has a two way covenant with, and that covenant has always been, You do this, and I will do that; or If you don’t do this, I will do that. This is what they agreed to. That is not the gospel of Paul to the Gentile.

Do you agree or disagree with the covenant God made with His own nation He made for himself?

Many people believe in Jesus, yet do not believe Jesus. Many believe in him but are not obedient.

This is not the gospel of Paul revealed to him by Christ Jesus from heaven. You are speaking of Lordship salvation, as you are speaking of having to be obedient after salvation. That is hanging onto works for you must obey. What kind of “free gift” is that?

Are you of the Lordship salvation, such as Calvinism, or Arminianism?

When Jesus said in Mark 16:16, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

Was Jesus kidding? Mistaken? Incorrect?

I believe the Word of God, and Jesus speaks very plainly here. Jesus while on this earth preached his message only to His own, for He says He did not come for the heathen Gentile dogs. That’s me. So then in the “great commission” I am included, after the Jew; after the House of Israel accepts Christ Jesus as Messiah and their King. This did not happen. The Apostles never got out of Jerusalem, until sometime after the stoning of Israel, and that was when the house of Israel sealed their fate.

This “great commission”, regardless of translation used, all says the same thing to the Jew to enter the Kingdom. One must repent (believing is synonymous with repenting), and that one must be baptized to be saved. If one disbelieves, they can be baptized but they are condemned. And this may be what you believe. But for this Gentile, I believe Christ spoke the last words from heaven to Paul on how, in this dispensation, we are to be saved, and that is by the Grace of God, Through faith, without works, and this is not the gospel of the “kingdom” as taught by John the Baptist, Jesus on earth, or Peter to the Jew in Acts 2:36-40. Those that are far off are Jews in other countries, and that generation of Jew is unacceptable in their present state.

In other words I do not believe I must be “water” baptized for the remission of sins as Peter preaches. Scripture will not support this view in this dispensation of Grace. I don’t believe the “great commission” as that is not Paul what preached.

Those that came through the 12 Patriots lead to Moses, and Moses’ Law and the Jew believe Moses’ Law for God had given it to him for the nation Israel. The say thing happened to Paul, thus becoming Paul’s gospel as He received it from God.

Can you agree with this?

The bible tells us that in Matt 15:9, "BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN."

People worshiping Jesus in vain. They believe in Jesus, they just don't believe Jesus. I suppose most, if not all, these vain worshippers are sincere in what they believe and teach. Why would someone knowingly waste their time and effort in vain worship?

Good question, but that is what those Jews did that Jesus was addressing.

Do you believe Jesus was speaking to the heathen at this time?

Jesus said in Matt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, "'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me in that say, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

I believe what Jesus says on this earth, and what He says from heaven. I understand the verse following, and also the gospel of Paul. Jesus and the Apostles, and all Jew’s avoided the Gentile whenever possible. We also see this in understanding the following. ”But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel”, Matthew 15:24. I’ll not believe what man believes, but only what His Word says.

Do you believe what Christ says here?

Believing in Jesus as Lord is not the problem with these MANY people, it is practicing lawlessness and not doing the will of the Father. These are obviously sincere since they are disputing their sentence.

Amen. Israel is under the Law of God, which is in their belief.

Jesus said in John 4:24, "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

Amen, and Jesus tells this “half-breed” those at Pentecost will worship God the Spirit, in spirit and truth.

Worship must be according to truth. What is truth? John 17:17 says God's word is truth. How do we know what God wants? He has revealed it in His word.

Right on! Jesus while on earth told all known truth. Christ from heaven reveals to Paul that today the truth of God is to ”…, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house”, Acts 16:31.

Which truth do you believe? That only known while Jesus walked this earth as man, or spiritual heavenly truth for today revealed later to Saul/Paul?

Jesus said the way is narrow in Matt 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

And Peter follows up with this gospel in I Peter 4:18, ”And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?” Peter does not preach to the Gentile, other than that one time God commanded he go to the first Gentile to be saved, and that was without “repentance or water baptism” to receive the Holy Ghost. Peter and the rest of the Jerusalem church shook hands with Paul that they would only go to those of the circumcision. Matt. 7:13 above, and I Peter 4:18 have nothing to do with salvation of the Gentile.

Not much solace or sealing when believing we are only scarily saved, and just hanging by a thread. Is this what you believe?

His next admonition is to beware of false prophets. I think there is an incorrect notion that the false prophets know they are false prophets, just as the vain worshipers know they are worshiping Jesus in vain.

Yes the Jew is to be very careful of this, especially in the coming tribulation period.

If we look to, or for prophets today, are we saved? If so what business have we to look for prophets today, for all are false prophets. I believe we may agree on this matter.[qb]

I am not looking for a rebuttal to every point I make, but based on previous posts, would not be surprised to receive such. Quite frankly, most amount to not much more than, "Your wrong".

When I read this paragraph of yours, I went back on my answers above, asking you for an answer. That will show you are reading and endeavoring to see where I am coming from. I am beginning to see where you are coming from, works + faith, and faith + works. This is because I am interested to see what you have to say, and to see if I can help you see more clearly the gospel of Christ Jesus from Heaven, and also to see if you may enlighten me where I could be wrong. I enjoy discussing with knowledgeable people in their Christian belief, hoping either to learn more, or to teach others more than they now know about the gospel of Paul to the Gentile.

Over the years I have changed from a “babe in Christ” to one that can now “stand”, getting the soles of my feet dirty combating tradition of man. Not only bringing some to salvation in teaching the gospel of Paul, but also moving people to see more clearly that today the only gospel we have is that from Christ as he sits beside His Father in heaven.

I see I have not disappointed you, trying to answer every question you raise, or statement made. When we bring works with our faith, I do say it is wrong, for it is not the gospel of Paul.

Do I sometime sound hoarse, and perhaps dogmatic? Yes, I have been accused of that. Is Jesus viewed in this manner, Peter, Paul, Billy Graham, the Pope, Rick Warren, all those some call the “fathers”, and do the teachers thinking they are right, leave any doubt they are right? I can’t help what I believe, and that is what I teach in my personality.

Are you right? You are in your belief, or we would not be conversing. I believe as I believe for I finally decided to believe the Word, and not mans. We Gentiles had no hope. At least that is what the Bible says, and if any disagree with that, I can’t help it.

Is it I saying you are wrong in understanding Paul? I say no for all I put forth is His Word, and if His Word is not believed, who is in the wrong? I on my own have no authority to tell you “your wrong”. If the Word tells you that you are wrong, will you believe it? That is up to you. I quote scripture of Paul, but most refuse to believe Paul has the dispensational gospel that Christ revealed to him. Ephesians 3:1-5, ”For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2. If ye have heard of the Dispensation of the Grace of God which is given Me to you-ward: 3. How that By Revelation he made known unto Me the Mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4. Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand My knowledge in the Mystery of Christ) 5. Which in Other Ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is Now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit”.

As Paul writes these verses, it is Now revealed, but not before to others. If one disbelieves these five verses, then yes, I say they are wrong, as they refuse to believe the gospel of Paul given to him personally by Christ Jesus as He sits on the right hand of His beloved Father. Paul says He is the Apostle to the Gentile, so I make sure I understand my own personal Apostle, and I read what the Holy Spirit had him write to me.

Got some chores to do. Also the continuing you may which to answer separately that which follows pertaining to your original post. Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12.

[ June 05, 2005, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: ituttut ]

 

[ituttut]

Continued to mman from ituttut:

imman is in bold.

In the original post on this thread, I laid out how we get INTO Christ, into the Church, and in contact with the blood that washes away our sins. So far, all I have received is a bunch of rocks thrown at what I stated, while no one as of yet, has shown through the scriptures any other way we can get INTO Christ, into the church or in contact with the blood. Yes, some have quoted verses that do not tell us how to get INTO Christ saying that is the way, while ignoring verses that deal directly with that very subject.

ituttut: I gave answer to your original of which you refuse, so let me explain another way and see if you will agree.

This seems to be your main trust, of which is quoted here from your original. Quote “Did you ever wonder why blood and water came forth from Jesus' side (John 19:34). The Spirit, water and blood all agree as one according to I John 5:8. On the day of Pentecost, the spirit was talking though Peter (ACts 2:4). Acts 2:38 Then Peter (Spirit - talking though Peter) said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized (water) in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins (blood - see also Matt 26:28); and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Here we have the Spirit, water and blood all agreeing.” Unquote.

Then you immediately say, Quote “We are saved by grace through faith, how wonderful.” Unquote. Where did you find this information of “Through Faith”? Not while Jesus was on earth, and not after Pentecost with the “great commission” gospel. To find the truth that you speak of how wonderful, you first must wait until you hear Paul inform you of this.

It is wonderful what Christ Jesus revealed to Paul some few years after Pentecost. You have just entered into the Gospel of Paul without realizing you just moved from one dispensation to another. Pentecost came with water, and blood, with the Holy Ghost as promised to the 120 at Pentecost. Isn’t it amazing of all the thousands, and most likely millions of Jews in Judah and Israel, a measly 120 showed up. Many talked the good game, but stayed away for the price to high to pay.

There was not one Gentile among them, and was not until Cornelius some few years later was the first Gentile to be preached at, or to, by an Earthly disciple of Jesus.

Nowhere in the Bible will you find salvation throughfaith of Jesus Christ, until it is revealed to Paul. I can see where I might agree with your assessment within your quote above for Israel, but no Gentile is included. They could not be for salvation today of the Gentile, for it was not known until Paul. Search the scriptures, and you will see this is so. Christ from heaven revealed a new dispensational gospel to His only heavenly appointed Apostle. When we come to see this division, it rids the teaching of man of the contradictions they make, for the Word does not contradict.

Just suppose for a minute that I am right (I know, heresy to some). I believe in Jesus and he is my Lord and Savior. I believed him when he said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved". Just suppose that Gal 3:26-27 really does mean that we are childern of God by faith because we have been baptized into Christ. Let's just suppose that baptism is for the remission of sins and the same phase means the same thing in both Acts 2:38 and Matt 26:28.

Acts 2:38, ”Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” I believe Peter as he speaks to the children of Israel as he informs in Acts 2:36, ” Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,….”

Matt. 26:28,and then also verse 29: ”For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 - But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.”

Is it YOU that Jesus is talking to? It is not me, but those he is talking to. Do we presume to invite ourselves to His Table? We must understand things in the kingdom of God. Christ has His kingdom, and Christ gives to His earthly Apostles their own kingdom, and these will sit at His, Christ Jesus table as we see in Luke 22:29-30., ”And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30. That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

Is that ME? Is that YOU? Is there anyone other than whom Christ says will sit at His Table? Perhaps somewhere in eternity we may be invited, and it is not an impossibility, but we certainly must think we are “hot stuff” thinking Jesus is going to include us with those that went “through temptations” with him from the beginning of His ministry – ”Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations”, Luke 22:28.

Let's just suppose that we are saved by grace through faith, just like it is described above.

Not supposing here, for this is given us by the Grace of God, through Jesus Christ

Lets just suppose that I am right when I say we are not saved by any works of man, that we cannot merit one microsecond of our eternal salvation. Let's just suppose that baptism is not a work since the bible nowhere calls it a work, but an act of faith. Let's suppose that after one gets into Christ, he will not live perfectly or a sinless life, but as long as he remains in the light, Jesus' blood will cleanse us of all sin (I John 1:7).

I believe I said in my previous post, you are of “Lordship salvation”, and that automatically puts you into the “works” camp, for you must work to continue to be saved, and that is those saved as the Pentecostal church, which is just the same as the Catholic church, if I am not mistaken. The gospel of Paul to the Gentile is of eternal salvation at our believing in our heart that Jesus Christ saves, and we are sealed. Are you not saying someone is stronger than God, and the Spirit of God cannot hold we that are in the Body of Christ. If anybody can do that then they are strong enough to take Christ Jesus, the Son of God from God the Father.

We accept the gift, and one can believe someone, or thing can nullify the Word of God?

Let's just suppose that worship must be according to truth and not what man likes or dislikes. Let's just suppose that many people will be lost who call Jesus Lord, and that the way really is narrow. Let's just suppose that there is such a thing as vain worship, that God really did tell us how to worship him and did not leave it up to man. Let's just suppose that there is only one way INTO Christ. If I were right, what would it take to change your mind?

Prove to me that You are God.

I will then believe you, and not Christ Jesus, the only begotten Son of God that told Paul to tell me, ituttut, you heathen dog, I love you, for this was my purpose from the beginning. From the beginning you went after other idols. I sat you aside, and I then created my own people, and they did just as you. But I, God so loved the world that whosever believes in me shall never perish. I, God as the Word/Son wish you to be like me, and be with me in heaven. You are now part of me and will be with me forever. It was not so from the beginning, for you turned me down, and then my own people did also, I chose Saul/Paul as my only heavenly Apostle, and gave him his own gospel for those in your dispensation, if only they will believe, for ”.. to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7. Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin”, Romans 4:4-8.

I really believe you and I are that man.

Oh yes, the blood and water. I believe you will find that Christ Jesus, the Word of God is the Water of life, and we believe this, coming through His blood at the Cross with Him, becoming dead to sin and the Law, and will bodily arise to meet Him in the air to be with Him forever, and being as He is, yet not knowing what we shall be. Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12.

 

[mman]

Originally posted by ituttut:
It is wonderful what Christ Jesus revealed to Paul some few years after Pentecost. You have just entered into the Gospel of Paul without realizing you just moved from one dispensation to another. Pentecost came with water, and blood, with the Holy Ghost as promised to the 120 at Pentecost. Isn’t it amazing of all the thousands, and most likely millions of Jews in Judah and Israel, a measly 120 showed up. Many talked the good game, but stayed away for the price to high to pay.

There was not one Gentile among them, and was not until Cornelius some few years later was the first Gentile to be preached at, or to, by an Earthly disciple of Jesus.

Nowhere in the Bible will you find salvation throughfaith of Jesus Christ, until it is revealed to Paul. I can see where I might agree with your assessment within your quote above for Israel, but no Gentile is included. They could not be for salvation today of the Gentile, for it was not known until Paul. Search the scriptures, and you will see this is so. Christ from heaven revealed a new dispensational gospel to His only heavenly appointed Apostle. When we come to see this division, it rids the teaching of man of the contradictions they make, for the Word does not contradict.

You speak of different gospels, the gospel of Paul or Paul's own gospel, different dispensations. These concepts are foreign to the New Testament.

First, there is but one gospel and that gospel is for all. Here are some proof texts.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

What is the difference in "the gospel" and "a gospel". This one gospel, or the gospel, was preached to the Jews first then to the Greeks (Gentiles). Not two gospels but one gospel, for all man kind, or as stated in vs 16, EVERYONE.

This agrees with Jesus commission to his Apostles in Mark 16:15-16, "And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

Notice this is for "all the world" (every nation) and every creature (all mankind). Yes, it was preached to the Jews first then the Greeks.

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Notice, they were to go to every nation, teaching the same thing, not differnt messages. They were to teach, baptize and then to teach those disciples to go teach, baptize, then those were taught to go teach and baptize, and so on. This does not end but continues and this message was to be taught to every nation, not just Jews.

Paul makes this plain in Gal 3:26-29, "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

It's the same way for Jews, Greeks, males, females, slaves, free, all mankind.

Heb 9:16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

His testament was binding after his death. Once a testament is binding, no one can add to it or take away from it (Gal 3).

Acts 15:7, "And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe"

This is the same Gospel Peter preached everywhere he went. It was not a different Gospel than Paul preached, but it was THE gospel. Your story would be more credible if Paul had preached to Cornelius. But Peter taught him the gospel witch took place after the conversion of Paul.

Acts 16:10 Now after he had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go to Macedonia, concluding that the Lord had called us to preach the gospel to them.

Notice, this is THE gospel. Not Paul's gospel.

Paul, in Gal 2:7 states, But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter

Was this the same gospel, with Paul primarily preaching to the Gentiles and Peter primarily preaching to the Jews or was this two different messages.

Paul answered this question in Chapter 1 of Galatians when he stated starting in verse 6, "I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed."

When Paul states, in II Thes 1:7-8 "and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ." which gospel is he talking about?

There is only one Gospel. The Gospel is defined in I Cor 15:1-4 as the death burial and resurrection. How do we obey the gospel? Do we die, then we are burried and resurrected. How can you obey that? We can't, but we can obey a form of this as stated in Rom 6:17. But how do we obey a form of that doctrine? He told us in Rom 6:3-4. We die, we are buried, and we are raised. How? In baptism. Our baptism in water is how we obey a form of the death, burial and resurrection, or the gospel. It's that simple.

The same way they obeyed the gospel in Acts 2 and every other conversion listed.

Also, you mentioned the kingdom. The Church is the kingdom. Matt 16:18-19, Jesus uses the church and kingdom interchangebly. The kingdom would be seen by those alive who were standing in Jesus' presence in Mark 9:1. The kingdom would come with power. Luke 24:49, the Apostles were told to remain in Jerusalem until they were endued with power. Acts 1:8 state, "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." Notice, their commission was to the end of the earth (everywhere). Acts 2 is the fulfillment of when they received power, or the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:47 says Jesus added those being saved to the church. Here is the first time we know that the church was established. It came with power just as he had said. Acts 2:41 says those being baptized were added? To what? Verse 47, the Church or the kingdom, since they are the same.

This is the same message for Jews and Gentiles, males and females, slaves or free. The Gospel is the power of God to salvation for EVERYONE who believes, to the Jew first and ALSO to the Greek - Rom 1:16.

 

[dean198]

The great Baptist scholar Beasley-Murray has already demonstrated that eis here means 'for'. Even Robertson acknowledged that it could mean 'for' here and that is was only his carnal enlightenment philosophy that made him go with a less likely meaning.“For it is his will that all who have believed, be baptized for the remission of sins.” Calvin, The Institutes of the Christian Religion, 4:15:1.
"Christ by baptism has made us partakers of his death, engrafting us into it. And as the twig derives substance and nourishment from the root to which it is attached, so those who receive baptism with true faith truly feel the efficacy of Christ’s death in the mortification of their flesh, and the efficacy of his resurrection in the quickening of the Spirit." Ibid. 4:15:5-6.

One more thing ... The Church is NOT the kingdom! The kingdom was had come to earth when Jesus came. It was in the midst of them. It was preached from the time of John. The Kingdom had come upon them. The Church did not begin until the day of pentecost, which was the 'day of the assembly'. The Church is to live in the kingdom realm, and is to bear witness to the kingdom, but it is not the kingdom.

 

[Eric B]

Of course I baptize on the spot. Never is there any example or instruction to wait. In the New Testament, people were baptized immediately. Christ adds to the Church. Never is anyone instructed to join anything. This concept that you are speaking of, seems foreign to the New Testament teaching.

So you do not take them to join the church of Christ, and indoctrinaste them about instruments, communion every week, etc? You baptize them and just let them go fellowship wherever they want?

How can you say church membership is different than becoming a member of the body when the church is the body????

I don't.
What you have describd is the ideal I believe in; but it's just that every group, including the Church of Christ as far as I have seen, wants to take the convert into their own organization. This is why baptism and salvation became separated; because it was put off until indoctrination was complete. This may not have been authorized by God; but it is what organized Christianity does, and none of us by ourselves can change it.

 

[dean198]

It amazes me that people cannot give praise where praise is due. The so called Church of Christ does alot of things right, and it should be acknowledged. Of course they have no position to claim the exclusive position they do. They have not returned to the NT pattern, and therefore they cannot unchurch everyone else without unchurching themselves. But weekly communion, baptising on the spot, not using instruments, is the practice of the first century church (and for a long time after). Every church used to believe that baptism enrolled a person in the Church ... even the early baptists and the anabaptists before them. the idea of a local church as a covenanted association is puritan in origin - nothing to do with teh apostles.

 

[mman]

Originally posted by dean198:
One more thing ... The Church is NOT the kingdom! The kingdom was had come to earth when Jesus came. It was in the midst of them. It was preached from the time of John. The Kingdom had come upon them. The Church did not begin until the day of pentecost, which was the 'day of the assembly'. The Church is to live in the kingdom realm, and is to bear witness to the kingdom, but it is not the kingdom. [/QB]

Mark 9:1, clearly indicates the kingdom had not yet come but would come within the lifetime of some who were listening to him. I have shown how it came with power. What scriptures make you think the church is not the kingdom?

What does it take for a kingdom? A king and subjects. Is there a king? Is Jesus reigning now? I Pet 3:22, as well as other places say YES. What is Christ in charge of? The Church according to Eph 5:23.

Col 1:13 says, "13For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son"

The "transferred" is past tense, therefore, those who he was talking to were already in the kingdom.

Again, Matt 16:18-19, Jesus used the word Church and Kingdom interchangeably. Peter preached the first gospel sermon on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 and the kingdom or Church was established. Those people of Mark 9:1 did see the kingdom come with power as promised (Luke 24:49, Acts 1:8, Acts 2:4, Acts 2:47).

Christ is head and the church is subject to the head.

Yes, there is also an eternal kingdom which is promised to the faithful - II Pet 1:11.

 

[mman]

Originally posted by Eric B:
So you do not take them to join the church of Christ, and indoctrinaste them about instruments, communion every week, etc? You baptize them and just let them go fellowship wherever they want?

The Lord adds them to the Church (Acts 2:47). Which Church? His Church. The one he died for and bought with his own blood (Acts 20:28). Which church were those in Acts 2 added? Did they have to be "indoctrinated"?

In Acts 2, were they mature christians? No. They were babes in Christ that needed the word to grow (I Pet 2:2). Today, they study God's word and grow.

That is the same plan that Jesus set forth in Matt 28:18-20, teach, baptize, teach.

Nowhere is anyone ever instucted to "join" anything. Nowhere is anyone ever "voted" on or in.

I don't.
What you have describd is the ideal I believe in; but it's just that every group, including the Church of Christ as far as I have seen, wants to take the convert into their own organization. This is why baptism and salvation became separated; because it was put off until indoctrination was complete. This may not have been authorized by God; but it is what organized Christianity does, and none of us by ourselves can change it.

If God connected baptism and salvation, there is nothing man can do to separate it.

If you believe one is saved, then later baptized into the church, then the church in not necessary for salvation. Yet Jesus adds those being saved to the church (Acts 2:47).

So, what makes one a baptist? Being saved plus baptist doctrine? That would make Baptist doctrine unnecessary and unessential to salvation.

The same could be said for Methodist doctrine. One is saved and then "indoctrinated" to become a Methodist. Therefore, Methodist doctrine is unnecessary and unessential for salvation.

Are you saying that salvation plus doctrine make you a member of a denomination?

Does Jesus condon all denominations. Is he a "member" of all denominations? Does he condon immersion and once saved always saved with the baptist and at the same time condon sprinkling and the possibility of apostacy with the Methodists? Is Christ divided? Are all worshipping according to truth? Are all teaching the truth? How can they be.

Here is what I read in the New Testament. When a believer repents and confesses his belief in Christ, he is baptized for the remission of sins and is added to The Church by Christ, just as in the many examples as recorded in the book of Acts.

What if a group of baptized believers meets and doesn't join any group. Of what church would they be a member? They study the New Testament pattern of worship and try to do bible things in bible ways, calling bible things by bible names and speaking where the bible speaks and remaining silent where the bible is silent.

That is the plea of the Chruch of Christ.

 

[dean198]

mark 9:1 speaks of those standing there, that they would not see death till the kingdom came in power. This is speaking of a coming of the kingdom - a consumating coming, though not the end of the age consumation. The fact that Jesus said that some would not die, indicates that this coming was not soon after. It was, I believe, the kingdom coming in power manifesting itself in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish nation in 70 AD. But Jesus said that the kingdom was already in their midst. John said the kingdom was near at hand. Jesus said that if demons are cast out, than is the kingdom already here. The church is the community of the kingdom, whose job is to make known the kingdom through the works of the kingdom.

 

[dean198]

What if a group of baptized believers meets and doesn't join any group. Of what church would they be a member? They study the New Testament pattern of worship and try to do bible things in bible ways, calling bible things by bible names and speaking where the bible speaks and remaining silent where the bible is silent.

I suppose that they would be a body of believers, though possibly not a church in the NT sense, unless they had a new testament ministry to guide them. Where is this ministry? The 'restoration movement' never addressed this. There are areas where the RM never did restore the NT pattern of the laying on of the hands for the Holy Spirit, or the Timothy ministry, or widows, or elders properly ordained and disciplined. The RM was another movement, along with many others, who thought that they alone had returned to the NT. Some have certainly been more consistent and closer to the NT than the RM.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by dean198:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> What if a group of baptized believers meets and doesn't join any group. Of what church would they be a member? They study the New Testament pattern of worship and try to do bible things in bible ways, calling bible things by bible names and speaking where the bible speaks and remaining silent where the bible is silent.

</font>[/QUOTE]Are you speaking of IFB churches?

 

[dean198]

I don't know what an IFB church is, but if it has anything to do with you than definately not!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by dean198:
I don't know what an IFB church is, but if it has anything to do with you than definately not!

This is a debate forum, not a personal attack forum. Further remarks will be deleted. I would advise you to get an education about IFB churches if you don't know what one is before posting such.
DHK