-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Water and Blood
- Thread starter mman
- Start date
Amen! How wonderful.
Hello mman. If I'm understanding your correctly, you understand as I understood as I listened and studied every Sunday, and in Bible Study at my Baptist church. But in my early 20’s I noticed we were not covering the complete Bible, so I decided it may better if just God and me, looked at His Word together. I had already decided that God was now dealing with individuals, and not His nation Israel. Baptists do believe they are saved by Grace, but there is no way they can prove it by their doctrine, or by what they preach. So I was saved before understanding it all, but it means so much more now, for me a Gentile knowing I have a seat at the table, enjoying the conversation, the food, and wine of kings offered and provided by my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Please notice you have just preached two gospels. One of salvation for the Jew under Law and ordinances with mercy and grace. This salvation is for the covenant people. God says He knows who these people are for He created and set them apart. This is under the Law of Moses, and the gospel of John the Baptist. You then sign off in your last sentence with the Christian message of Christ from heaven, of salvation through faith, which is the gospel of Paul to the Gentile, and the Jew today can be saved just as we heathen.
Under Law with its works will not mix with the Grace that comes through Jesus Christ. Your way of salvation follows the route of salvation for the nation of Israel, not the Christian today, for there is neither Jew nor Gentile. Disciples were first called Christian in Antioch, and not Jerusalem. There were two gospel’s running simultaneously shortly after Damascus Road when Christ Jesus from Heaven appointed Paul as the Heavenly Apostle. He is going to tell, and teach Paul something not before known by anyone but God. Christ gave to Paul the dispensational gospel of grace.Ephesians 3:2-6, ”If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3. How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4. Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6. That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.”
My friend I am a Gentile, and before Damascus Road the Gentile would never have been able to enter into the Temple. They didn’t back then, and had not Israel refused Messiah, the Gentile would have gotten the scraps from the table of the Jew, for we could only come as proselytes to the Jewish faith, being their servants forever, as Israel served and worshipped their God.
Jesus does not mince words at any time, and He meant what He said in Matthew 15:22-28, ” And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. 23. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. 24. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 25. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. 27. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. 28. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.” Notice the woman was not saved, but her daughter was made whole.
Galatians 1:11-12 informs no man, or men, and in particular the earthly Apostles of Jesus were consulted as to salvation in this dispensation we now live in. The gospel of the Cross, the “good news of grace” was reveled to Paul by Jesus Christ from heaven. We either believe Paul, or we do not. Paul should never be quoted in connection with the way of salvation only for the Jew, for Christ told Paul on Damascus Road that he, Paul, was now the One Apostle given blanket authority to preach the Gospel of Grace of God that comes to all through Christ Jesus. We find this truth also in Acts for James, Peter and the rest shake hands with Paul, saying we of the church of Jerusalem and the Jew will not preach to any but our own, for the gospel of the circumcision is not meant for the heathen Gentile.
One gospel was the Pentecostal or Apostolic church of Temple worship of circumcision, blood sacrifices, priest and the “great commission” of Repent and Be Baptized For The Remission Of Sins. The other gospel for the Christian was Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, and your house. Can you honestly say there were not two gospel’s? Perhaps this has not be separated out for you before, as it is not easily seen for all the churches follow the tradition of man. However, most Baptists do see a separation but many do not understand it.
Acts 2:21-22 can help clear the air for those willing to admit they have not been taught to do as the Bereans, i.e. go to scripture, and learn to correctly divide the Word of God. Our God is a God of division as He informs us beginning in Genesis 1-1, and then all though the Bible. He also is able to again bring together again, witness e.g. Adam and Eve, and the Red Sea.
Acts 2:21-22 when understood will take contradiction from the Word of God on how we today are able to join into the Body of Christ. Verses 21 and 22, ”And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. 22. Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know”. The Holy Ghost revealed to the Apostles something would come to pass, but the secret]/b] could not be revealed to man (Saul/Paul) until after the stoning of Stephen, as Jesus prophesied something of this nature could occur, in one of His parables to His people.
The above is what His Word teaches. If you don’t believe it, I would have a little talk with Jesus to find out about these matters. In the Spirit we have access to our Lord and Savior, and through Him the Father. He will not steer you wrong. Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12.
No, that is what you said. I just read it. Don't put words in peoples mouths or you will be charged with false allegations. Christ shed his blood for the whole world. Most people have John 3:16 memorized. I'll post it for your sake.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Christ died, and shed his blood. Why? "that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Fairly simple, don't you think?
Christ was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
John said of Him:
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Jesus was the sacrifical lamb. Lambs are sacrificed primarily that their blood will be shed. For without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.
You have the choice. You can believe and accept this sacrifice or refuse it. It has nothing to do with baptism. The choice is yours. I made this clear in my previous post. Why did you falsely accuse me of saying something else?
So exactly what did John mean when he said: "Bring forth fruits meet for repentance." Are you still suggesting that John's baptism (as Peter's baptism) would give them remisssion of sins). Why then did they have to bring forth the evidence of their repentance? Their fruit of repentance was brought forth because they had already repented. How much more obvious can it be.
No, the word "for" is used instead. The translators avoided all the verbose language that you would use. They used a simple three letter word, and hoped that you would understand the English language.
Go to the store and buy some ice cream for supper.
Does for = "because of supper"
"on account of supper"
or "in order to receive supper"
Your option would be the latter, and yet I don't have to buy ice cream in order to receive supper. That is ridiculous. We use the word "for" "eis" in this way all the time. You are simply forcing your odd definition of it into this verse to fit your theology.
"for the remission of sins"
Ryrie
DHK said
And, when compared with other brands of Christianity, you can be assured, someone is right, and someone is wrong. Sorry, this by default, not by your self confidence, makes our version of Christianity a probability.
See, the only thing we both really know for sure, is that the Bible is 100% correct. Our interpretation of it, is a probability of being correct. Rest assured, out of 30,000 splinter of Christianity, everybody is not spot on.
DHK, do you seriously not comprehend this fact of split versions of truth? No one questions our Bible, just our 'conclusions'.
Oh, I will agree on your statement however ,that there are no probabilities on the doctrine of salvation. The probability that exists, is our version or understanding, not the reality which exists apart from our awareness or learning.
See how you do that? You changed my statement from the probability of YOUR and MY, understanding of Christianity, to that of the Doctrine of Salvation.
By the way, can you comment on how you do this technique of shifting the topic like that, like I mentioned earlier? Do you realize or acknowlage what I am even talking about? It's like you ignore the question, then change the topic, then dump your agenda. Thats propaganda, not real debate. And the best part...dude...I am on your side! LOL!
You have an odd sense about you. You know I am Baptist, and we agree on salvation.
And, when compared with other brands of Christianity, you can be assured, someone is right, and someone is wrong. Sorry, this by default, not by your self confidence, makes our version of Christianity a probability.
See, the only thing we both really know for sure, is that the Bible is 100% correct. Our interpretation of it, is a probability of being correct. Rest assured, out of 30,000 splinter of Christianity, everybody is not spot on.
DHK, do you seriously not comprehend this fact of split versions of truth? No one questions our Bible, just our 'conclusions'.
Oh, I will agree on your statement however ,that there are no probabilities on the doctrine of salvation. The probability that exists, is our version or understanding, not the reality which exists apart from our awareness or learning.
See how you do that? You changed my statement from the probability of YOUR and MY, understanding of Christianity, to that of the Doctrine of Salvation.
By the way, can you comment on how you do this technique of shifting the topic like that, like I mentioned earlier? Do you realize or acknowlage what I am even talking about? It's like you ignore the question, then change the topic, then dump your agenda. Thats propaganda, not real debate. And the best part...dude...I am on your side! LOL!
Biblical faith is not doing at all. Doing is a work. Faith is not a work. That is why the COC have a works salvation which puts it in the realm of a cult. They believe tehy are going to heaven because of their works. They have a wrong definition of faith. Look up faith in a dictionary, preferably a Bible dictionary, or a Greek lexicon. Faith is not doing. Faith is believing. It is trusting. Faith is putting confidence in the Word of another.
Romans 4:19-21 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Abraham was a man of faith. Faith is definned here. Abraham was confident. He was fully persuaded that what God had promised he was able to perform.
He had confidence in the word of another, specifically God's Word. That is faith. Faith is not doing. Faith is trust, confidence.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Fisrt, you obviously don't understand what I believe. I do not believe in works salvation. I personally have never met anyone who truly believed that.
Second, I don't have to look up faith in a dictionary when God has not only defined it but given examples of what it is in Heb 11.
Speaking of Abraham, the bible has more to say about him and his faith. Starting in James 2:19, You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! 20But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Notice Verse 23, "And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." This was said after his obedience made his faith complete.
Belief is tied to obedience.
Here are some biblical examples.
“He who believes [pisteuo] on the Son has eternal life; but he who obeys not [apeitho] the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him” Jn. 3:36 - ASV).
Following Peter’s sermon on Pentecost, certain devout Jews inquired: “What shall we do?” The apostle commanded them to repent of their sins and be baptized for the remission thereof (2:38). Those who “received his word were baptized” (v. 41). Luke then says: “And all that believed were together” (v. 44). “Believed” sums up the obedience described previously.
On the initial day of its existence, the church consisted of at least 3,000 souls. Later, Luke records that many others heard the word and “believed; and the number of men came to be about five thousand” (Acts 4:4). It is obvious that the 5,000 mentioned here included the 3,000 referenced earlier, and that the “believed” of this passage means precisely what it did in 2:44.
When Paul went to Ephesus , he met certain sincere students who had been immersed with the baptism that was a part of the teaching of John, the forerunner of Christ. Perhaps something alerted the apostle to a deficiency in their earlier instruction; he asked: “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They replied in the negative. Paul then asked: “Into what then were you baptized?” He was not framing a new question on an entirely different theme. Rather, baptism was a part of the belief process, concerning which he had just inquired.
No, this is not two gospels as someone else claimed, but one gospel.
The gospel must be obeyed according to II Thes 1:8 and 1 Pet 4:17. Romans 10:16 also ties obeying the gospel to believing.
It cannot be summed up better than what Paul did in Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
No, that is what you said. I just read it. Don't put words in peoples mouths or you will be charged with false allegations. Christ shed his blood for the whole world. Most people have John 3:16 memorized. I'll post it for your sake.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Christ died, and shed his blood. Why? "that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Fairly simple, don't you think?
Christ was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
John said of Him:
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Jesus was the sacrifical lamb. Lambs are sacrificed primarily that their blood will be shed. For without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.
You have the choice. You can believe and accept this sacrifice or refuse it. It has nothing to do with baptism. The choice is yours. I made this clear in my previous post. Why did you falsely accuse me of saying something else?
So exactly what did John mean when he said: "Bring forth fruits meet for repentance." Are you still suggesting that John's baptism (as Peter's baptism) would give them remisssion of sins). Why then did they have to bring forth the evidence of their repentance? Their fruit of repentance was brought forth because they had already repented. How much more obvious can it be.
No, the word "for" is used instead. The translators avoided all the verbose language that you would use. They used a simple three letter word, and hoped that you would understand the English language.
Go to the store and buy some ice cream for supper.
Does for = "because of supper"
"on account of supper"
or "in order to receive supper"
Your option would be the latter, and yet I don't have to buy ice cream in order to receive supper. That is ridiculous. We use the word "for" "eis" in this way all the time. You are simply forcing your odd definition of it into this verse to fit your theology.
"for the remission of sins"
Ryrie </font>[/QUOTE]I was trying to put words in you mouth to show your incosistency. It was obvious you had not said that, but the conclusion is inevitable.
The greeks had a word for because, "hoti". This word was NOT used in Acts 2:38. The greek word "eis" was used which never is translated as "because", since is does not mean "because". Just because our english word "for" can sometimes be used for "because" doesn't mean the greek word "eis" can.
If you can easily understand "eis" in Matt 26:28, why is it so hard to understand in Acts 2:38. Not only is the same word used but the SAME PHRASE. Every example showing how our english word "for" can mean "because" to attempt to show that baptism is because we have remission of sin (Acts 2:38) can also be used in Matt 26:28 to show that Jesus blood was shed because mankind had already received remission of sins. It is a very incosistent position unsupported by the greek language.
ituttut
Paul said there was just one gospel. The same gospel was preached to the Jews first and also to the Greeks (Rom 1:16).
Eph 4:5 says there is one faith.
Jude 3 says contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
I did not preach two gospels, but one gospel. I Cor 15:1-4 tells us that the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection.
Rom 6:17 says, "But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered."
Obeyed what form of doctrine? What he had just told them in Rom 6:3-4. Since we can't literally die, be buried, and raised again for our sins, we obey a form of that in baptism. We are baptized INTO His death (that is where the blood flowed)and buried with him in baptism, raised to walk in a new life.
No longer slaves to sin since you obeyed the gospel.
It is the same gospel preached on the day of Pentecost and through the epistles.
Again, it is summed up in Gal 3:26-29 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Therefore, everyone that is in Christ got there the same way.
Paul said there was just one gospel. The same gospel was preached to the Jews first and also to the Greeks (Rom 1:16).
Eph 4:5 says there is one faith.
Jude 3 says contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
I did not preach two gospels, but one gospel. I Cor 15:1-4 tells us that the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection.
Rom 6:17 says, "But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered."
Obeyed what form of doctrine? What he had just told them in Rom 6:3-4. Since we can't literally die, be buried, and raised again for our sins, we obey a form of that in baptism. We are baptized INTO His death (that is where the blood flowed)and buried with him in baptism, raised to walk in a new life.
No longer slaves to sin since you obeyed the gospel.
It is the same gospel preached on the day of Pentecost and through the epistles.
Again, it is summed up in Gal 3:26-29 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Therefore, everyone that is in Christ got there the same way.
DHK said:
I mean, even to me, this logic seems silly at best because to even say a sinners prayer, you are 'doing' an act (of faith). It is more than a thought in a vaccum. It is a mental decision followed by a resolution and acceptance, usually a real prayer. This is an act as far as common sense would have it. A work(Not a work of the Law mind you, as a Jew understood a work). But it is still an action a person has to take.
Why would any brand of Christian try to destroy the beautiful 'unity of faith with action' that the Bible 'clearly' states many times? I may be on the minority side of Baptists, but I love James chapter 2. It is real hard for me to read that fantastic passage and buy into a statement like this...
Does not the Bible (being Biblical of course), not say that if a person says they have faith, yet have no works, their faith is dead? Does it not also say that Abrahams faith was made perfect by his actions? I mean, how can anyone say Biblical faith is not doing AT ALL?
Are you not going to the extreeme to make a theological point perhaps?
I don't think the Apostle James would back you up on your statement if he were here today. Is James a gospel of straw? Should it have been canonized or is this up for grabs as well, seeing that is organized by men?
And look for the record, I may seem like I am not playing ball here, not bashing the RCC folks and all, not playing to my Baptist side with blind zeal. Frankly, I could so care less about which side gets an edge. The Bible and truth stand apart from all opinions and thoughts of men. If we cannot ask our selves the hard questions, then we never grow. I am really here for me, not some debate team member that helps some sides position.
Besides, the truth is, these forums are for the individulas posting more for themselves than anything. It is important to be able to state your position to yourself. How many people switch sides here based on what they have read? Thats what I thought. (smile)
Isn't this where the predstination folks kind of challenge the Baptist postition (if we can acutally formally have any position)?
I mean, even to me, this logic seems silly at best because to even say a sinners prayer, you are 'doing' an act (of faith). It is more than a thought in a vaccum. It is a mental decision followed by a resolution and acceptance, usually a real prayer. This is an act as far as common sense would have it. A work(Not a work of the Law mind you, as a Jew understood a work). But it is still an action a person has to take.
Why would any brand of Christian try to destroy the beautiful 'unity of faith with action' that the Bible 'clearly' states many times? I may be on the minority side of Baptists, but I love James chapter 2. It is real hard for me to read that fantastic passage and buy into a statement like this...
I mean, what kind of statement is that? I don't know a handful of Baptists in our congregation that would state that so boldly. The Bible contains belief and actions together. Why try to rip them to shreds and put them all in containers seperated from eath other. Thats not Biblical either.
Does not the Bible (being Biblical of course), not say that if a person says they have faith, yet have no works, their faith is dead? Does it not also say that Abrahams faith was made perfect by his actions? I mean, how can anyone say Biblical faith is not doing AT ALL?
Are you not going to the extreeme to make a theological point perhaps?
I don't think the Apostle James would back you up on your statement if he were here today. Is James a gospel of straw? Should it have been canonized or is this up for grabs as well, seeing that is organized by men?
And look for the record, I may seem like I am not playing ball here, not bashing the RCC folks and all, not playing to my Baptist side with blind zeal. Frankly, I could so care less about which side gets an edge. The Bible and truth stand apart from all opinions and thoughts of men. If we cannot ask our selves the hard questions, then we never grow. I am really here for me, not some debate team member that helps some sides position.
Besides, the truth is, these forums are for the individulas posting more for themselves than anything. It is important to be able to state your position to yourself. How many people switch sides here based on what they have read? Thats what I thought. (smile)
In those two passages, you still mistake spiritual baptism for water baptism. "Baptism INTO CHRIST" is the same as 1 Cor.12 "By one SPIRIT are we baptized into ONE BODY". The water ceremony symbolized this, but does not in itself save us.
ituttut is right that you are relying on the OT aspect of the Gospel. It may not be entirely an "other" gospel; but is the incomplete stage of God's plan that is superseded by the NT where, it is all by faith. Yes, they are both the same Gospel, as even in the NT, it was by faith, as many did all those works, and still were not justified (Rom.9:30-32). So works, as are cited regarding Noah, Abraham and the others, are once again, a fruit of salvation. In Noah's case, works brought about a type of physical "salvation"; but this, along with Abraham and Isaac is but a shadow of the final NT plan, as they are used in Hebrews and elsewhere. So you can't take baptism and say "See, just as the ark saved Noah, baptism saves us". In the NT it is spiritual, and the Body of Christ is our "ark" (Matt.24:37-51), which is of course, entered by faith.
Once again, your definition of a "gift" of God by "grace" is basically instructions on works to do to save (justify) one's self. Problem is; Israel already had the whole set of God's Laws. Why didn't it save them, then? Was it simply because God gave them the wrong laws? Or, is it that man could not keep God's laws well enough ever to be able to please God? That is what the entire message of the NT is. Yes, God giving us the instructions on the works to do to save ourselves would be a "gift of grace" --IF we could actually work ourselves to salvation; which would mean absolute perfection! Else, where do you draw the line? OK, you are baptized, but what about the millions of other things you do wrong? One must bring God's standards down, and say He overlooks those things, or perhaps particular commands like baptism and "the true Church" makes up for those sins. That is exactly the way Israel thought.
God still has commandments he wants us to keep, but the focus has now shifted from laws to faith, and we cannot trust in ANY of those works to be what actually saves us, though we are to strive to keep them. So yes, people should be baptized in obedience to the NT. But we cannot say one is not saved until it actually occurs.
ituttut is right that you are relying on the OT aspect of the Gospel. It may not be entirely an "other" gospel; but is the incomplete stage of God's plan that is superseded by the NT where, it is all by faith. Yes, they are both the same Gospel, as even in the NT, it was by faith, as many did all those works, and still were not justified (Rom.9:30-32). So works, as are cited regarding Noah, Abraham and the others, are once again, a fruit of salvation. In Noah's case, works brought about a type of physical "salvation"; but this, along with Abraham and Isaac is but a shadow of the final NT plan, as they are used in Hebrews and elsewhere. So you can't take baptism and say "See, just as the ark saved Noah, baptism saves us". In the NT it is spiritual, and the Body of Christ is our "ark" (Matt.24:37-51), which is of course, entered by faith.
To repeat fromthe other thread:
Once again, your definition of a "gift" of God by "grace" is basically instructions on works to do to save (justify) one's self. Problem is; Israel already had the whole set of God's Laws. Why didn't it save them, then? Was it simply because God gave them the wrong laws? Or, is it that man could not keep God's laws well enough ever to be able to please God? That is what the entire message of the NT is. Yes, God giving us the instructions on the works to do to save ourselves would be a "gift of grace" --IF we could actually work ourselves to salvation; which would mean absolute perfection! Else, where do you draw the line? OK, you are baptized, but what about the millions of other things you do wrong? One must bring God's standards down, and say He overlooks those things, or perhaps particular commands like baptism and "the true Church" makes up for those sins. That is exactly the way Israel thought.
God still has commandments he wants us to keep, but the focus has now shifted from laws to faith, and we cannot trust in ANY of those works to be what actually saves us, though we are to strive to keep them. So yes, people should be baptized in obedience to the NT. But we cannot say one is not saved until it actually occurs.
To repeat fromthe other thread:
Once again, your definition of a "gift" of God by "grace" is basically instructions on works to do to save (justify) one's self. Problem is; Israel already had the whole set of God's Laws. Why didn't it save them, then? Was it simply because God gave them the wrong laws? Or, is it that man could not keep God's laws well enough ever to be able to please God? That is what the entire message of the NT is. Yes, God giving us the instructions on the works to do to save ourselves would be a "gift of grace" --IF we could actually work ourselves to salvation; which would mean absolute perfection! Else, where do you draw the line? OK, you are baptized, but what about the millions of other things you do wrong? One must bring God's standards down, and say He overlooks those things, or perhaps particular commands like baptism and "the true Church" makes up for those sins. That is exactly the way Israel thought.
God still has commandments he wants us to keep, but the focus has now shifted from laws to faith, and we cannot trust in ANY of those works to be what actually saves us, though we are to strive to keep them. So yes, people should be baptized in obedience to the NT. But we cannot say one is not saved until it actually occurs. </font>[/QUOTE]You talk of two baptism. Eph 4:5 says there is just one. Yes, there have been many, but there is now just one? Which one?
Acts 19:1-7. When did these men receive what you call "spiritual baptism".
Baptism is a greek word transliterated into english. It means to dip or plunge. Acts 8 says that Philip preached Jesus and the next thing out of the Eunuch mouth is "Here is water, what doth hinder me from being baptized". We know baptism is in water from this and other passages (I Pet 3:20-21, John 3:5, Eph 5:26).
New Testament baptism always means in water, unless otherwise clarified by the text or context.
BY one Spirit means something totally different than WITH one Spirit.
I encourage you to study I Cor 12:13 with Acts 2. Are you saying these people entered the church in two different ways?
Once we are in the light, the blood of Jesus keeps on cleansing us. The question is how do we get into the light or into Christ or come in contact with his blood? The original message address that.
Baptism is not a work. How would that obligate God to save me? Frankly, it makes no sense to me how going into the water and coming out of it will wash away my sins. By faith, I accept what God has said on the subject. By faith I obey (Read all of Heb 11 for God's definition and examples of faith - without which it is IMPOSSIBLE to please him (Heb 11:6)).
By faith I am a child of God because I have been baptized (Gal 3:26-27).
I challenge anyone to show how baptism is a work when the bible calls it faith.
Today, there is just one baptism. Accept one and reject the other.
Isn't this where the predstination folks kind of challenge the Baptist postition (if we can acutally formally have any position)?
I mean, even to me, this logic seems silly at best because to even say a sinners prayer, you are 'doing' an act (of faith). It is more than a thought in a vaccum. It is a mental decision followed by a resolution and acceptance, usually a real prayer. This is an act as far as common sense would have it. A work(Not a work of the Law mind you, as a Jew understood a work). But it is still an action a person has to take.
</font>[/QUOTE]My statement is not silly, but rather Biblical If you care not to believe it you put yourself in direct contradiction to the Bible, and have started to believe a false gospel as well. The Scripture plainly teaches:
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
--We are not saved by works. The Bible makes that clear. The Bible also makes it clear that we are saved by faith, which obviously then is not a work:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith
Do you have a problem in believing the Bible?
I never suggested that we are saved through the sinners prayer. Where did you get that idea? We are not saved through the sinner's prayer. We are not saved through the repetition of any prayer. In fact, that is the downfall of many; the very reason that many are not saved when they think they are.
We are saved by faith.
Go to 1Sam,1, and read about Hannah when she prayed. Hannah prayed in her heart. Only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard, the Scriptures record. Prayer is from the heart. It does not have to heard. It is communication between God and man. It is the expression of one's faith. Faith in and of itself is not a work. It is trust.
That is why Jesus said "Except ye be as a little child you cannot enter the kingdom of God." What work does a little child do to enter the kingdom of God? A little child can do no work. A little child has implicit faith in its parents that they will provide and protect him. That is not a work; that is faith. You need to come to an understanding of faith, and the difference between faith and works.
DHK
James 2:19 You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
James 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
James 2:22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:24 is the only passage in the bible to mention faith alone, yet why people keep saying we are saved by faith alone, is beyond my understanding. James does not contradict Paul. They are both in complete harmony, if you rightly divide the word of truth.
Why would some change what Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." You can add whatever verse to this you want. It will only compliment it, not negate it.
These verses are in complete harmony with Eph 2:8-10. We can never earn our salvation, but if all we do is believe and don't do what God has commanded, then our faith is useless, incomplete and no more than what the demons have.
James 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
James 2:22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:24 is the only passage in the bible to mention faith alone, yet why people keep saying we are saved by faith alone, is beyond my understanding. James does not contradict Paul. They are both in complete harmony, if you rightly divide the word of truth.
Why would some change what Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." You can add whatever verse to this you want. It will only compliment it, not negate it.
These verses are in complete harmony with Eph 2:8-10. We can never earn our salvation, but if all we do is believe and don't do what God has commanded, then our faith is useless, incomplete and no more than what the demons have.
These verses are still in harmony of what the Bible says about faith. Take them out of their context and read into them your own theology and you have the makings of a cult. The fact does not change that faith is not a work. If these verses are in complete harmony then harmonize them with Eph.2:8,9. I can. But I want to hear it from you.
DHK
DHK
Matt 5:11"Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.
From the passages in James it should be clear that believing alone is dead faith. Useless. Incomplete. The Hebrew writer in Heb 11 talks about the kind of faith that is required to please God. Faith that obeys.
3By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.
By faith Abel offered... (indicates God told him what to do since faith comes from hearing God's word (Rom 10:17)). Cain sincerly offered a sacrifice and was displeased when God did not accept it. What was the difference? Abel offered his by faith and obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.
By faith Enoch was taken up ...for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.
By faith Noah, ...prepared an ark (Gen 6:22 - Noah did all that God commanded him).
By faith Abraham... obeyed
By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac...
By faith he left Egypt,
By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that he who destroyed the firstborn would not touch them.
By faith they passed through the Red Sea
By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days.
Here is an interesting example. By faith the walls of Jericho fell down. Does that mean they didn't have to "do" anything? Did their actions cause the walls to fall or was God obligated to make them fall because they earned it. No, they fell because of faith in that they obeyed God.
who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection; and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated, wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.
And all these, having gained approval through their faith.
Without this type of faith, it is impossible to please God.
Eph 2:8-10 was not written to alien sinners telling them how to be saved, but to baptized believers, some of which may have been those we can read about in Acts 19:1-6.
Later in Eph 5:25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,"
How could they have been saved through faith? Because they did what God said. It could not be made more plain that Gal 3:26-27, "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."
If your faith equals belief only, then congratulations, you have the same dead, useless, incomplete type of faith that the demons have. If you believe God enough to do what he says, then you have a perfect or complete faith. It is this type of faith that saves us, no doubt.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
True enough.
To "believe" in the "magic of baptism" (as in saving your soul only as the water touches your skin) you have to ignore some key Bible teachings.
#1. 1 Peter 2 - it is NOT the act of touching water in Baptism that "Saves" but the moment of the "APPEAL TO GOD for a clean conscience".
#2. Romans 3 says that man WITHOUT the working of the Holy Spirit "does NOT seek after God" does not choose light (let alone Baptism). Baptism comes only AFTER a person CHOOSES to YIELD to Christ, to pray the sinners prayer, AND to confess AND to repent AND to turn and in faith to walk with Christ in obedience including the good work of "Baptism".
Because of the Romans 3 principle of total depravity apart from Christ -- The full sequence above is not possible without the new birth.
#3. Those who appeal to Baptism as a magic sacrament may eventually go to the point of infant baptism.
In Christ,
Bob
You are right, that is because Eph 2:8-10 nowhere talks about faith alone. It talks about faith. Faith alone is Man's doctrine. Faith alone, according to James is no means of justification.
I would like to go back to the statement that by faith, the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for 7 days.
Joshua 6:1 Now Jericho was securely shut up because of the children of Israel; none went out, and none came in.
2 And the LORD said to Joshua: "See! I have given Jericho into your hand, its king, and the mighty men of valor.
3 "You shall march around the city, all you men of war; you shall go all around the city once. This you shall do six days.
4 "And seven priests shall bear seven trumpets of rams' horns before the ark. But the seventh day you shall march around the city seven times, and the priests shall blow the trumpets.
5 "It shall come to pass, when they make a long blast with the ram's horn, and when you hear the sound of the trumpet, that all the people shall shout with a great shout; then the wall of the city will fall down flat. And the people shall go up every man straight before him."
They obeyed God's instructions and the wall fell by faith.
Think about that, "By faith, the walls of Jericho fell". What all is wrapped up in that word faith. They did not believe the walls would fall and ignore God's commands and do nothing. They didn't do most of what God said. They didn't change God's commands based on how they felt inside or based on their logic since they couldn't figure it out.
Now, did the marching of the people cause an earthquake and that would have caused them to fall down anyway? Of course not. Did the marching and trumpet blowing and shouting cause the walls to fall. No. Did they in any way earn, by their obedience, the walls falling down? No. Did it make sense to the people? I doubt it.
What does marching around a city doing all those "works" have to do with walls falling down?
God did the work. Man did not earn it, yet without the obedience, the walls would not have fallen. They fell by faith.
By faith the walls of Jericho fell.... (think of all that is wrapped up by that word faith - with not one ounce of it earned)
By grace we have be saved through faith.... (think of all that is wrapped up by that word faith - with out one ounce of it earned)
Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
James 2:20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
#1 - I agree. There is no power in the water. The power is in the blood. This verse does say something saves us. What is it?
#2 - Just where do you read about the sinners prayer? What chapter and verse is it? Did Peter give faulty instructions in Acts 2:38. Was Jesus mistaken or kidding when he said "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."?
#3 - Baptism is only for believers. This is made clear in Acts 8:36-37. Baptism for the wrong reason is invalid. Acts 19:1-6 shows that. Out of curiousity, when do you think these people in Acts 19 were saved? What about Saul as recorded in Acts 22:16? When were his sins washed away?
What would have been your advise to Naaman. He received instructions to dip in the Jordan river 7 times.
Some might say, "There's no power in that water, that's just silly. Just believe God and your leprosy will be cured. After it is cured, go dip in the Jordan river as a symbol that you believe."
That's crazy Naaman, you think that "work" will earn your cure? Naaman, do you feel in your heart that you are cured? Just say you're cured and that's all there is to it. I know God never instructed you to pray and be cured but trust me.
No, it took his servant to bring Naaman around to his senses. If it was something hard you would do it, but he told you something easy, Wash and be clean.
Naaman's problem was, "Behold, I thought...". God didn't do it the way Naaman thought he would. No, but that simple act of faith, wash and be clean, cured him of his leprosy.
While there is no power in the water, there is power in obeying God's commands.
You are right, that is because Eph 2:8-10 nowhere talks about faith alone. It talks about faith. Faith alone is Man's doctrine. Faith alone, according to James is no means of justification.
</font>[/QUOTE]Faith alone is not man's doctrine. It is what the Bible teaches. How can you reconcile Eph.2:8,9 with the rest of Scripture. I have posted this before. I will post it for you again.
Salvation is by faith. Obedience to Christ's commands results because of faith put in the sacrifial blood of Christ.
Your "gospel" so-called goes directly contrary to Eph.2:8,9
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
#1. Salvation is of grace, not of baptism. It is of grace not of obedience. It is of the free gift of God. That is what grace is. The very fact that salvation is of grace automatically excludes any kind of acts of obedience, otherwise it wouldn't be grace. That would negate the definition of grace. Grace is all from God, nothing from man.
Paul puts it this way.
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--With that definition it would be impossible to include baptism in the plan of salvation. For salvation is by grace. It is all of the grace of God. Baptism is not grace.
#2. "ye are saved through faith" It doesn't say faith alone, it implies it. One is saved by faith and faith alone. There are no works involved in faith. Faith is the one thing that is not a work. It is belief or trust. That is not a work. It is the confidence that you put in an individual. It is not a work. We are saved by the faith that we put in the sacfificial work of Jesus Christ that he provided for us by the grace of God. Salvation is the work, the only work. It is accomplished all by Christ on the cross, and all by His grace.
#3. "And that not of yourselves" This makes it even more emphatic that baptism could not possibly involved in salvation. Salvation is a work of man. Man does it; man receives. It is of "yourself." Every work you do is "of yourself." Salvarion is not of yourself; it is all of God. Christ said on the cross "It is finished." (John 19:30) There is nothing man can do. YOU cannot do anything. Christ paid the entire penalty. It is not of yourself. It is of the grace of God.
#4. "it is a gift of God" A gift is something that is given; nothing that is worked for. You cannot work for a gift. A gift is never earned. Baptism is not a gift. Baptism is a work. Salvation is a gift already provided for by Christ. Like any gift one only has to receive it by faith. You don't have to do anything for it (like being baptized.) That is a work. All that is needed for salvation, like any other gift, is to reach out and take it. You do that by faith. One receives a gift by faith.
#5. "Not of works" Plain and simple isn't it? It can't get any clearer. It is not of works!! Baptism is a work. It is something that man does. God doesn't baptize you; man does. It is a work. Salvation is not of works.
#6. "Lest any man should boast." Do you really expect to see all the COC people in heaven boasting and glorying in their baptism. Christ paid 90% of the penalty of their sin, and they paid the other 10% by their baptism. You are going to boast in heaven because your baptism got you there? Right? That is precisely why Paul stresses it is not of works--not of baptism. It is all of the grace of God.
To believe that salvation is by baptism is a pagan supersition. Baptism doesn't wash away sins. It simply gets you wet.
DHK
#1 - Titus 2:11 says the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all - By your logic, all men will be saved. Also by your logic, the act of confession is unessential. The act of repentance is unessential. With that definition it would be impossible to include confession or repentance in the plan of salvation. For salvation is by grace. It is all of the grace of God. Confession and repentace are not grace. By your very definition, faith is also excluded since ,"Grace is all from God, nothing from man." You are in direct contradiction with God's word. Luke 13:3, Matt 10:32, Rom 10:10, Heb 11:6 and other places).
By your faulty logic and definition, you have excluded confession, repentance and Calling on the name of the Lord. I will substitue Confession where you had baptism.
#1. Salvation is of grace, not of confession. It is of grace not of obedience. It is of the free gift of God. That is what grace is. The very fact that salvation is of grace automatically excludes any kind of acts of obedience, otherwise it wouldn't be grace. That would negate the definition of grace. Grace is all from God, nothing from man.
Paul puts it this way.
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--With that definition it would be impossible to include confession in the plan of salvation. For salvation is by grace. It is all of the grace of God. Confession is not grace.[/QUOTE]
#2 - It does not imply faith alone. THis whole paragraph is in direct conflict with what James said. It is in direct conflict with Heb 11.
Using your definition of faith YOU CANNOT explain how "by faith the walls of Jericho fell"? You say faith is belief or trust and it is the one thing that is not a work.
John 6:29, "Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
The funny thing is, I can show you where belief is a work, yet you say it isn't, and I can show you where baptism is a part of faith, and you call it a "work", yet have NO SCRIPTURE TO BACK UP THIS STATEMENT.
By your definition, confession is a work, because it is something an individual must do. It takes effort to perform. By your logic, you think you are earning or working your way to heaven by making a confession.
# 3 - Using your faulty logic, confession, repentance, or calling on the name of the Lord is unessential. You could plug any of these into your statement.
"And that not of yourselves" This makes it even more emphatic that confession could not possibly involved in salvation. Salvation(I think you meant baptism, so insert confession here) is a work of man. Man does it; man receives it (confession is before men). It is of "yourself." Every work you do is "of yourself." Salvation is not of yourself; it is all of God. Christ said on the cross "It is finished." (John 19:30) There is nothing man can do. YOU cannot do anything. Christ paid the entire penalty. It is not of yourself. It is of the grace of God
#4. Again, with your faulty logic, you could say the same about confession, repentance, Calling on the name of the Lord, thus making them unessental.
"it is a gift of God" A gift is something that is given; nothing that is worked for. You cannot work for a gift. A gift is never earned. Confession is not a gift. Confession is a work. Salvation is a gift already provided for by Christ. Like any gift one only has to receive it by faith. You don't have to do anything for it (like confessing, repenting, or calling on the name of the Lord.) That is a work. All that is needed for salvation, like any other gift, is to reach out and take it. You do that by faith. One receives a gift by faith.
Again, by your faulty definition and logic, you've just excluded confession, repentance, and calling on the name of the Lord. Let use confession again.
5. "Not of works" Plain and simple isn't it? It can't get any clearer. It is not of works!! Confession is a work. It is something that man does. God doesn't confess for you; man does. It is a work. Salvation is not of works.
Again your faulty logic and definitions have excluded confession, repentance, and calling on the name of the Lord.
Lets see how confession fits.
#6. "Lest any man should boast." Do you really expect to see all the Baptist people in heaven boasting and glorying in their confession. Christ paid 90% of the penalty of their sin, and they paid the other 10% by their confession. You are going to boast in heaven because your confession got you there? Right? That is precisely why Paul stresses it is not of works--not of confession. It is all of the grace of God.
To believe that salvation is by confession is a pagan supersition. Confession doesn't wash away sins. It simply gets you hoarse.
All your baptism may have made you was wet, but mine was for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38), washed my sins away (Acts 22:16), put me into the death of Christ and put me INTO Christ (Rom 6:3-4, Gal 3:27), added me to the Church of which Christ is savior (Acts 2:41,47, I Cor 12:13) and was by faith (Gal 3:26-27, Col 2:12).
Ps 119:160 The entirety of Your word is truth
Ps 119:172 ...For all Your commandments are righteousness.
Heb 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
2Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done , whether good or bad.
Eph 2:8-9 and Gal 3:26-27. Perfect Harmony.