Originally posted by bapmom:
"A goal to "win a soul" or a goal to clearly present the gospel and let the Holy Spirit win the soul?"
Anytime I "win a soul" it is actually the Holy Spirit doing it. Its never been me....obviously. I guess I just assume that people realize thats what we ALL mean. In fact, I used that example with you, but Ive never set that goal for myself, even.
Who is the goal set for?
Let me add one more thing, sir. I do not think its fair to "judge" a group's soul winning teaching based on how many of those converts they see come to their particular church.
You might have a point if others hadn't done follow-ups on Hyles decision cards and determined that the church wasn't making an effort to disciple these supposed converts. Further, if we were talking about only half or a quarter of the converts never regularly attending the church that "won" them, you might have a point. But FBCH claims to have won many times their attendance- many 10's of thousands.
This isn't just a knock at Hyles... I have the same questions about Billy Graham.
There are many churches out there, and when you lead a person to Christ you do not necessarily see them come to YOUR church. Ideally we'd all like that to happen, but it just isn't realistic.
I disagree. I think what you have is alot of false professions based on a shallow presentation of the gospel and/or the salesmanship of the "soul winner".
The biblical model seems to be that they are "added to the church" with an exception being someone who was not from the same area as at the witness. The converts in Acts shared all things in common and met daily to learn the scriptures. If someone makes a profession then has no desire to learn more about Jesus and His will for lives... then there is a pretty good chance that this person never had saving repentance or faith.
Ive seen several saved, and have yet to have one come to my own church....except my own children of course. However, I saw them saved after prayerfully relying on the Holy Spirit to be with me while I spoke, to lead me to the right person, and after doing my best with God's help to explain the whole thing clearly and emphasize true belief and repentance.
Jesus said that His sheep hear His voice and follow. If they aren't in your church, are they in a sound church somewhere?
So to say that a church isn't teaching right because their "won numbers" don't match their "attendance numbers" is not really fair. For one thing, you have to give people a chance to grow.
Can you give some scriptural proof of someone who was saved and then had no desire to be discipled, fellowship with believers, and learn more about Jesus? One of the proofs of salvation given in I John is love for the brethren. Is it accurate to say that someone who avoids going to church "loves the brethren"?
As new converts come in, older people are dying, others are moving away, others are just choosing to go elsewhere. There are as many reasons for this as there are people.
Can you think of a reason that a church would claim to have 4000 conversions in a single day yet have their membership not grow by say... 500?
Let me point out, ALL those people at FBC who are saved, were saved SOMEWHERE. ANd not all of them were saved at FBC Hammond. Does this mean that the church where they WERE saved somehow did things wrong because that person is no longer attending there?
Maybe so, if they are in the same city. There are good reasons to leave a church... but there generally is a failure in the church usually at the leadership level when someone after prayerful consideration leaves one local church for another in the same community.
Obviously, there are people who are saved and already have family or other ties to another. The problem is those who don't really. Of course that leads into the whole argument of what the purpose of the church is.
One story about FBCH was that they picked up bus loads of kids from south Chicago, preached to them, gave them goodies, led them as a group in the sinner's prayer (if they wanted to go to heaven), had them sign cards, then dropped them off without following up.
A church I am familiar with having direct ties to HAC runs a rescue mission in a major city. They take men off the streets and give them a place to stay and preach to them. They claimed to have won 14,000 in a year... their attendance was about 800 including a large children's church bus ministry and an ever changing group of "rescue" men.
As noble as it is to help get men off the street even for awhile and as sure as I am that some of these conversions are geniune... their church should have more people or else they should be founding churches where these men can learn and grow. BTW, once they make a profession pressure is applied to get them to move out of the shelter.
I took a man there who was homeless. He had a good job but also problems with alcohol that caused him to be evicted. They "won", baptized, and moved him out within 2 or 3 weeks. They didn't disciple him. I tried to talk to him and get him to church but he was evasive. Soon, he was drinking again and showed no real difference from before he was "saved". The only difference now is that he is innoculated to the gospel. He will tell anyone who attempts to evangelize him that he has already been saved and baptized at the ________ ________ Baptist Church.
I know I don't go to the church where I got saved. I only went there for a few years. My husband is not at the church where he was saved.
We aren't either... the 1000 mile one way commute won't allow it.
