Soul-wiinning or the glory of God? Which?

Nope. The unsaved will be judged according to their deeds.

Further, "unbelieving" is listed among other things:

[/qb]

The reason this is important is that "unbelief" is a willful choice. Some people will never hear the gospel and have an opportunity to not believe. OTOH, all will have a real, moral choice about whether to sin or not. Romans 2 shows that the gentiles have a law written in their conscience.

All are guilty because of sin.

Further, "belief" is not necessarily equivalent to faith... and it doesn't necessarily involve repentance. One can give assent to the facts about Jesus but that belief must involve turning to Him.

 

Don't mention it. I didn't think we were arguing. This is a learning opportunity for both of us I hope. I would rather you show me my error than to carelessly continue in it.

Not exclusively. However a believer should have a desire to learn and fellowship with other believers. That is biblical. The early church met daily and depended on each other. Going to church with the right attitude may be a manifestation of these evidences.

If someone can be added to an assembly, have consistent fellowship with the other believers in that assembly, be discipled, and serve God through the local church without going to church... then I guess it probably isn't necessary.

I don't think church attendance is evidence of anything... it is just that many of the evidences are accomplished at or through the local assembly of believers.

Genuine saving faith should involve a change in lifestyle and desire should it not?

If you got married and the lifestyle of your husband didn't change... he never got a marriage certificate, didn't move in with you, never consummated the marriage, didn't support you, continued to date others, didn't associate with your family, etc.... would the simple fact that he said "I do" in a quicky emotion driven wedding mean that he had married you in a real spiritual sense?

Doesn't matter what they feel. Biblical love is determined by action, not feeling. I Cor 13. In fact, love may not produce good feelings but rather miserable feelings.

Graham is much worse in my opinion. They send people back to apostate churches.

True. I watched the Kirk Cameron show on TBN one night and they have some good ideas.

His partner made the point that if a doctor wanted to get you to take a treatment that he knew would scare you, he would spend most of his time telling you how bad your disease was. By the time he convinced you of the deadliness and painfulness of the disease, getting you to not only accept but embrace the treatment would take little time or effort.

If you get a chance, read "Sinners in the hands of an angry God" by Jonathan Edwards. It is available on line. While you do, remember Edwards wasn't an impressive speaker. As he read this text in monotone... people fell out into the aisles in repentance.

Kirk Cameron specifically addressed this problem. They contend and I agree that most of the time people don't really come to a point of seeing their sinfulness and need for a Savior.

They will admit they are sinners... but not confess. Universally they will agree that heaven is a better proposition than hell... but they don't count the cost or commit to the changes involved in repentance.

 

None of us "wins" souls. That's the privilege of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit alone. All we can do is to respond when prompted by the HS to do what is asked of us (and ONLY do what is asked of us).

Sould winning is quality, not quantity. Perhaps some may be blessed with the ability to bring hundreds at a time to the Lord, but most of us are not as blessed, and not as called.

I have been sharing the Lord with a Muslim friend of mine for several years. It will probably take several more years before he comes to the Lord. Should I "give up" on that person just because I can "catch more fish" in another lake? Of course not, and neither should you.

Blessings to you!!
Johnv

 

What, are we keeping score? You should go where you think and feel God has led you to go. If you get there and later think that maybe you were mistaken, stay there and keep doing your best until God leads you to go elsewhere. Maybe it will end out that you were mistaken in thinking you were mistaken!

 

Scott,

You made many good points, and of course I was not attempting to minimize the importance of being involved in church. Much of my questioning in this area, both here and in other threads, has been because I want to be sure of my own presentation of the gospel.

I have seen The Way of the Master website, though I haven't read it indepth yet. It is something which looked very good to me, and I intend to go back there soon.

I agree that this presents a real problem, but I do not understand what really can be done about it except for being sure to emphasize the need that the unsaved person really has for salvation.

I feel especially burdened about this as my family will one day be going to the mission field for the express purpose of seeing people saved. We already go out on a weekly basis, and I want to be doing right.

 

Interesting discussion! We have one man advocating that before salvation we are incapable of even making a choice about salvation and another man advocating that in that depraved state we must willfully turn from all of our known sins.

Is it any wonder that the unbelievers are confused about salvation when those of us who profess to be students of the Word cannot agree on a thing as important as salvation?

God gave us a will. He did not HAVE to, but once He did, He allowed us to have it and will not force on us HIS will. At the same time, the only choice I can make as an unbeliever in a depraved state is to "call upon the name of the Lord" for salvation. From there, as bapmom says, we grow in grace. Is this not simple and consistent with Scriptures? I know this doesn't fit what some of you want to think... but I am concerned that you are pressing your personal opinions on a very important doctrine.

And Scott, you are very right that many many converts at First Baptist Church, Hammond don't get followed up on properly. A great many of them do not get discipled and thus the Great Commission is by no means complete. But rather than criticize them for that, perhaps you should go there and help them. They obviously need people with a burden for discipling. If your response is that they don't emphasize discipleship, I must tell you that you are very wrong. During my many years there I found that anyone could (and everyone was expected to) be a soul winner. Those who were mature enough and capable of discipling were those who captured the attention of the church leadership. The fields are ripe with converts my friend but where are the laborers to disciple them?

 

I think we might actually agree here. Let me ask you this:

1. What is a soul winner?
2. What does a soul winner do to win the souls?
3. Where is the Biblical evidence for your responses to questions 1 and 2?

And as for God's choice... I find it hard to believe he would send His only begotten Son to die for the world and not WANT every soul to be saved. Having given us a free will however God gave US the choice of salvation. But I digress... I am sure there are other threads where this would be more accurately pursued. </font>[/QUOTE]Is this the old seeker argument that folks like Warren like to put forward? I am really curious where all the seekers were when Paul wrote the following:

Romans 3:9-18

This, my friend, is the state of man before salvation: Totally depraved, altogether worthless, and a non-seeker of God. If God would have left the decision up to us, we would have all plunged head first into Hell.

Joseph Botwinick [/QUOTE]

HACGrad,

I am reposting this in case you happened to miss the questions which I asked you.

Joseph Botwinick

 

QUOTE]Originally posted by Scott J:
Nope. The unsaved will be judged according to their deeds.

Further, "unbelieving" is listed among other things:

[/qb]Just think of the billions (could it reach trillions) of the fearful, unbelieving filthy that will be thrown into the lake of fire.

The reason this is important is that "unbelief" is a willful choice. Some people will never hear the gospel and have an opportunity to not believe. OTOH, all will have a real, moral choice about whether to sin or not. Romans 2 shows that the gentiles have a law written in their conscience.

All chosen by God the Father our Savior, and all chosen by our Lord Jesus Christ are in the Book of Life, for we live.

All are guilty because of sin.

An Amen from this saved sinner.

Further, "belief" is not necessarily equivalent to faith... and it doesn't necessarily involve repentance. One can give assent to the facts about Jesus but that belief must involve turning to Him. [/QUOTE]

No and Yes. Repentance is necessary, and that repentance is found in Him. In our turning to Him we are circumcised then baptized without hands; we are sanctified, and justified.

 

God's chief purpose is to be glorified. In fact God deisres His glory before He desires His salvation, if He didn't He wouldn't be God.

He was so concerned with His own glory that he sent His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ to die on the cross for sinners.

The elect are saved to the praise of His glroy as Eph chapter 1 cearly states.

God has choosen to use saved sinners to proclaim the Gospel to all men. In this He is glorified.

If I am concerned about the glory of God, then I will be a wittness for Christ and testify of His grace in my life.

 

Please don't be confused on this. I never said that a person would by their own free will turn from sin. In fact, I will tell you clearly that I believe that scripture teaches that God regenerates the spirit as the initial point of salvation and is not dependent on a human decision. We can no more possess saving faith prior to new birth than we can experience life prior to conception.

The Bible declares both God's sovereigny and man's responsibility (though I would say "unwilling" rather than "incapable" but that is largely semantics).

If the Bible declares both, I believe both. The Bible says that faith and repentance are required. I believe it. The Bible says that God chose us before the foundation of the world. I believe it.

I have made no secrets about my general agreement with calvinism. Like Spurgeon, Edwards, Knox, and others who never compromised on the responsibilities of men.

 

We should try to glorify God in all we do.Whether we are praying,studying god's Word,fellowshipping with other Christians,spending time with our families,we should at least attempt to bring glory to God in all that we do.
Witnessing ,evangelizing,or soul-winning are three different ways of saying the same thing.Anybody who does personal evangelizing or soul-winning knows it is the Holy Spirit that convicts and Christ that saves,we have the honor of making the introduction of Jesus Christ.I think we honor and glorify God when we do that if we are in the right spirit.

 

In theory, yes. They will give the right answer. In practice... well, that is another story.

Badgering someone mercilessly until they recite the sinner's prayer reflects someone who is dissatisfied with the Holy Spirit's effort.

 

Who said anything about badgering,that would be counter productive. We present the Gospel,that is our duty,let God do the rest.

 

You said "anybody who does... soul-winning knows..."

My point is that I have witnessed people who would agree with you verbally but whose actions contradict what you assert. These people were universally fond of the term "soul-winner" and often were it like a gaudy, self-glorifying medal of honor.

 

I would call that false pride probably the result of poor teaching and a bad example.

Bro. John of Japan I don't know how much fruit you have personally been able to see and disciple.You make the introductions,you are the light on the hill.You have been there in Japan for over 20 years so the unsaved around you even know who you are and what you stand for,they know if there is a question they have about the God of the Bible that you can help them. The fact that you are the willing vessel of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in Japan brings glory to God.Do not be weary in well doing.