Soul-wiinning or the glory of God? Which?

Scott J · Oct 3, 2005

Nope. The unsaved will be judged according to their deeds.

Revelation 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Further, "unbelieving" is listed among other things:

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

[/qb]

The reason this is important is that "unbelief" is a willful choice. Some people will never hear the gospel and have an opportunity to not believe. OTOH, all will have a real, moral choice about whether to sin or not. Romans 2 shows that the gentiles have a law written in their conscience.

All are guilty because of sin.

Further, "belief" is not necessarily equivalent to faith... and it doesn't necessarily involve repentance. One can give assent to the facts about Jesus but that belief must involve turning to Him.

Scott J · Oct 3, 2005

Originally posted by bapmom:

Scott, Im sorry to be arguing with you, Im really not trying to be hardnosed.

Don't mention it. I didn't think we were arguing. This is a learning opportunity for both of us I hope. I would rather you show me my error than to carelessly continue in it.

But really, is "going to church" supposed to be THE evidence of true salvation?

Not exclusively. However a believer should have a desire to learn and fellowship with other believers. That is biblical. The early church met daily and depended on each other. Going to church with the right attitude may be a manifestation of these evidences.

It ought to be an eventual outcome, but why do we require it as an immediate step? Someone else pointed out once around here somewhere that we now live in a culture where church is an oddity.

If someone can be added to an assembly, have consistent fellowship with the other believers in that assembly, be discipled, and serve God through the local church without going to church... then I guess it probably isn't necessary.

I don't think church attendance is evidence of anything... it is just that many of the evidences are accomplished at or through the local assembly of believers.

Back in Bible times going to synagogue was a way of life for ALL the Jewish people, so to switch from synagogue to church on Sunday was not a great change of lifestyle in and of itself. But that is not how it is here in America anymore. Even if that is not the only plausible reason, I do beleive it would have an impact.

Genuine saving faith should involve a change in lifestyle and desire should it not?

If you got married and the lifestyle of your husband didn't change... he never got a marriage certificate, didn't move in with you, never consummated the marriage, didn't support you, continued to date others, didn't associate with your family, etc.... would the simple fact that he said "I do" in a quicky emotion driven wedding mean that he had married you in a real spiritual sense?

How do you know that those people are NOT feeling love for the brethren even though they aren't in a church yet?

Doesn't matter what they feel. Biblical love is determined by action, not feeling. I Cor 13. In fact, love may not produce good feelings but rather miserable feelings.

And I appreciate that you said it isn't just this one group that you are wondering this about.

Graham is much worse in my opinion. They send people back to apostate churches.

Let me ask it this way, though.....if Ive done what God told me, told them that God hates sin and there is a punishment for it, and that they must turn to God for salvation and believe on Jesus Christ, than what else can I do? Nothing, really.....right?

True. I watched the Kirk Cameron show on TBN one night and they have some good ideas.

His partner made the point that if a doctor wanted to get you to take a treatment that he knew would scare you, he would spend most of his time telling you how bad your disease was. By the time he convinced you of the deadliness and painfulness of the disease, getting you to not only accept but embrace the treatment would take little time or effort.

If you get a chance, read "Sinners in the hands of an angry God" by Jonathan Edwards. It is available on line. While you do, remember Edwards wasn't an impressive speaker. As he read this text in monotone... people fell out into the aisles in repentance.

I tell them the truth, they want to make a decision for Christ, I get their address and go visit them, but for awhile they don't really seem to be going anywhere. Do I just figure it wasn't their "time?" Do I assume they didn't mean it? Or do I keep praying for them and keep wondering?

Kirk Cameron specifically addressed this problem. They contend and I agree that most of the time people don't really come to a point of seeing their sinfulness and need for a Savior.

They will admit they are sinners... but not confess. Universally they will agree that heaven is a better proposition than hell... but they don't count the cost or commit to the changes involved in repentance.

ituttut · Oct 3, 2005

Originally posted by Scott J:

Originally posted by HACgrad:

I am paraphrasing but this is an accurate portrayal of what he said: "Four of us went out together yesterday. Before long, Bro (1) saw a boy and won him to the Lord, Amen. Then Bro (2) got one... then Bro (3) got one... then Bro (2) got another one. Well it was getting late but I just had to get me one too. About that time we saw a little 8 year old boy playing at a motel where his mom cleaned rooms. We got his mom's permission first then I asked him if he wanted to go to heaven. He said yes. So I explained to him how he could go to heaven and, praise God, he prayed the sinner's prayer and asked Jesus to come into his heart."

Click to expand...

Is this not the “sinners prayer” of that day, asking for mercy (propitiation)? Jesus had not yet shed His blood. Are we to today to ask for propitiousness from God? God forbid. Our Lord Jesus Christ shed His blood for us. Do we now say that was not good enough?

At that time, the Jewish publican owner of a “pub”, bartender or whatever other reference can be made, could enter into the kingdom asking God in prayer to accept his “blood sacrifice” as propitiation for his sins. In that day those of His nation could just Ask, and it would be done. Today we pray His will be done.

Today we are to believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to save us, not making a blood sacrifice, and praying that prayer. ” Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God,” Romans 3:25.

Johnv · Oct 3, 2005

Originally posted by John of Japan:
Should I have stayed in the States in order to win more souls?

None of us "wins" souls. That's the privilege of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit alone. All we can do is to respond when prompted by the HS to do what is asked of us (and ONLY do what is asked of us).

Sould winning is quality, not quantity. Perhaps some may be blessed with the ability to bring hundreds at a time to the Lord, but most of us are not as blessed, and not as called.

I have been sharing the Lord with a Muslim friend of mine for several years. It will probably take several more years before he comes to the Lord. Should I "give up" on that person just because I can "catch more fish" in another lake? Of course not, and neither should you.

Blessings to you!!
Johnv

Petrel · Oct 3, 2005

Originally posted by John of Japan:
I believe strongly in soul-winning, or I wouldn't be a missionary. I even had a book published once on the subject. However, while I was preparing to come to Japan, a well-known Baptist leader said to me, "Why are you going to Japan? You can win more souls in America!" This statement was true--the man had been to Japan twice and knew the score. Was it valid, though? Should I have stayed in the States in order to win more souls?

What, are we keeping score?

You should go where you think and feel God has led you to go. If you get there and later think that maybe you were mistaken, stay there and keep doing your best until God leads you to go elsewhere. Maybe it will end out that you were mistaken in thinking you were mistaken!

bapmom · Oct 3, 2005

Scott,

You made many good points, and of course I was not attempting to minimize the importance of being involved in church. Much of my questioning in this area, both here and in other threads, has been because I want to be sure of my own presentation of the gospel.

I have seen The Way of the Master website, though I haven't read it indepth yet. It is something which looked very good to me, and I intend to go back there soon.

I agree that this presents a real problem, but I do not understand what really can be done about it except for being sure to emphasize the need that the unsaved person really has for salvation.

I feel especially burdened about this as my family will one day be going to the mission field for the express purpose of seeing people saved. We already go out on a weekly basis, and I want to be doing right.

HACgrad · Oct 3, 2005

Interesting discussion! We have one man advocating that before salvation we are incapable of even making a choice about salvation and another man advocating that in that depraved state we must willfully turn from all of our known sins.

Is it any wonder that the unbelievers are confused about salvation when those of us who profess to be students of the Word cannot agree on a thing as important as salvation?

God gave us a will. He did not HAVE to, but once He did, He allowed us to have it and will not force on us HIS will. At the same time, the only choice I can make as an unbeliever in a depraved state is to "call upon the name of the Lord" for salvation. From there, as bapmom says, we grow in grace. Is this not simple and consistent with Scriptures? I know this doesn't fit what some of you want to think... but I am concerned that you are pressing your personal opinions on a very important doctrine.

And Scott, you are very right that many many converts at First Baptist Church, Hammond don't get followed up on properly. A great many of them do not get discipled and thus the Great Commission is by no means complete. But rather than criticize them for that, perhaps you should go there and help them. They obviously need people with a burden for discipling. If your response is that they don't emphasize discipleship, I must tell you that you are very wrong. During my many years there I found that anyone could (and everyone was expected to) be a soul winner. Those who were mature enough and capable of discipling were those who captured the attention of the church leadership. The fields are ripe with converts my friend but where are the laborers to disciple them?

Joseph_Botwinick · Oct 3, 2005

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by HACgrad:
Joseph-- I realize that semantically when we speak of winning souls it irks those of you who believe that we Fundamental Baptists think we can "win souls". The phraseology ,as you probably know, comes from Proverbs 11:30 " The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise." Without getting into a theological debate about the contextual accuracy of applying that phrase to our witnessing efforts, let me assure you that I know of no Baptists who believe that it is the "soul-winner" who saves the sinner.
Soul-winning would perhaps be more accurately termed "personal evangelism" which is exactly what Philip and others in the New Testament undertook.

I think we might actually agree here. Let me ask you this:

1. What is a soul winner?
2. What does a soul winner do to win the souls?
3. Where is the Biblical evidence for your responses to questions 1 and 2?

And as for God's choice... I find it hard to believe he would send His only begotten Son to die for the world and not WANT every soul to be saved. Having given us a free will however God gave US the choice of salvation. But I digress... I am sure there are other threads where this would be more accurately pursued. </font>[/QUOTE]Is this the old seeker argument that folks like Warren like to put forward? I am really curious where all the seekers were when Paul wrote the following:

9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."[c]
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."[d]
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."[e]
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."[f]
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."[g]
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."[h]

Click to expand...

Romans 3:9-18

This, my friend, is the state of man before salvation: Totally depraved, altogether worthless, and a non-seeker of God. If God would have left the decision up to us, we would have all plunged head first into Hell.

Joseph Botwinick [/QUOTE]

HACGrad,

I am reposting this in case you happened to miss the questions which I asked you.

Joseph Botwinick

ituttut · Oct 4, 2005

QUOTE]Originally posted by Scott J:
Nope. The unsaved will be judged according to their deeds.

Revelation 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Click to expand...

We Christians in the Body of Christ have already been made righteous, and our faithfulness will be judged. We will have judgment as to rewards. Please notice “the books were opened. Then notice who will be judged according to their works – “the dead were judged out of the books.”Those in the book of life live.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Think of the millions, or billions, that died in that world on the other side of the deluge. Of those living Only 8 souls emerged alive. You and I from Adam and Eve came by way Shem, Ham, or Japheth. I doubt but very few from that other world were not in hell.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Further, "unbelieving" is listed among other things:

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Click to expand...

[/qb]Just think of the billions (could it reach trillions) of the fearful, unbelieving filthy that will be thrown into the lake of fire.

The reason this is important is that "unbelief" is a willful choice. Some people will never hear the gospel and have an opportunity to not believe. OTOH, all will have a real, moral choice about whether to sin or not. Romans 2 shows that the gentiles have a law written in their conscience.

All chosen by God the Father our Savior, and all chosen by our Lord Jesus Christ are in the Book of Life, for we live.

All are guilty because of sin.

An Amen from this saved sinner.

Further, "belief" is not necessarily equivalent to faith... and it doesn't necessarily involve repentance. One can give assent to the facts about Jesus but that belief must involve turning to Him. [/QUOTE]

No and Yes. Repentance is necessary, and that repentance is found in Him. In our turning to Him we are circumcised then baptized without hands; we are sanctified, and justified.

John of Japan · Oct 4, 2005

Please, Joseph Botwinick and HACgrad, don't hijack my thread here. Please head over to Calvinist/Arminian for your discussion.

A discussion of the meaning of the term soul-winner would be relevant here, but not most of what you are discussing.

Thank you.

John of Japan

John of Japan · Oct 4, 2005

I appreciate what several of you have said trying to encourage me that I am doing right by staying in Japan. However, that is irrelevant to the discussion. I think I need to give some context here.

We have been in Japan 24 years. My doubts came after we started our first church here and found out how difficult it was. It was over 20 years ago that I came to terms with the fact that I would see very few saved here. Japan is "gospel resistant" (less than 1% Christian--including cults and Catholics--after 140 years of Protestant missions)

Two things helped me 20 years ago. (1) I read where there was a place where the hearts of the people were so hard that even Christ Himself "did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief." (Mt 13:58) (2) The director of our mission board visited us and convinced me that, according to dispensational (and I believe Biblical) theology, the purpose of humankind on earth is to glorify God.

Thus, this post. Do you agree with this, that our first duty as Christians is to glorify God (with soul-winning as one part of that), or is soul-winning the first duty of the Christian? (This is something I have heard many preachers say and have read in many books.)

4His_glory · Oct 4, 2005

God's chief purpose is to be glorified. In fact God deisres His glory before He desires His salvation, if He didn't He wouldn't be God.

He was so concerned with His own glory that he sent His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ to die on the cross for sinners.

The elect are saved to the praise of His glroy as Eph chapter 1 cearly states.

God has choosen to use saved sinners to proclaim the Gospel to all men. In this He is glorified.

If I am concerned about the glory of God, then I will be a wittness for Christ and testify of His grace in my life.

John of Japan · Oct 4, 2005

Hi, bapmom. I am delighted that you and your husband are preparing to come to Japan. I will write you a private message to offer my help.

Originally posted by bapmom:
Is there really a difference between glorifying God and winning souls? Isn't it like comparing apples to oranges? Isn't leading a person to Christ just one part of glorifying God, like someone else said?

Yes, there is a difference between the two. You can glorify God without winning souls. For example, Jesus prophesied the death by which Peter would glorify God (John 21:19). And you can preach Christ without glorifying God, just as the enemies of Paul did (Phil. 1:16)!

Originally posted by bapmom:
Why must there be a difference? John of Japan, I understand what you are saying about people starting to look at each other and "judging" them based on how many souls they've won. But wouldn't that be a personal downfall that that particular person has allowed in their own life, rather than a result of some sort of undue emphasis on soul winning?

Honestly, Im wondering.

The result of judging people based on how many souls they have won does not come from an undue emphasis on soul-winning. It comes from a specific teaching from the pulpit that the most important thing a Christian can do is to win souls, rather than to glorify God. There is a subtle difference here.

Originally posted by bapmom:

ps, Its so great to meet you! My husband and I are preparing to go to the mission field of Japan as well. We also have struggled with the idea that Japan is a harder field, but we know that when God leads us somewhere, He will take care of the results. Im sure this is what you know, too.

This is exactly right. The Lord will take care of the results as we faithfully give the Gospel in Japan. I literally tear up when I think of the precious Japanese souls He has brought to Himself through us, the young men He has called to preach, and other ways He has used us here. All to the glory of God, because we are so unworthy of any of the glory!

John of Japan · Oct 4, 2005

Originally posted by 4His_glory:

God has choosen to use saved sinners to proclaim the Gospel to all men. In this He is glorified.

If I am concerned about the glory of God, then I will be a wittness for Christ and testify of His grace in my life.

This is exactly right. If a Christian is not concerned about proclaiming the central event of history (His story), the cross, and obeying the last command of Christ, the Great Commission, then ergo, they are not concerned about the glory of God.

Scott J · Oct 4, 2005

Originally posted by HACgrad:
Interesting discussion! We have one man advocating that before salvation we are incapable of even making a choice about salvation and another man advocating that in that depraved state we must willfully turn from all of our known sins.

Please don't be confused on this. I never said that a person would by their own free will turn from sin. In fact, I will tell you clearly that I believe that scripture teaches that God regenerates the spirit as the initial point of salvation and is not dependent on a human decision. We can no more possess saving faith prior to new birth than we can experience life prior to conception.

The Bible declares both God's sovereigny and man's responsibility (though I would say "unwilling" rather than "incapable" but that is largely semantics).

If the Bible declares both, I believe both. The Bible says that faith and repentance are required. I believe it. The Bible says that God chose us before the foundation of the world. I believe it.

I have made no secrets about my general agreement with calvinism. Like Spurgeon, Edwards, Knox, and others who never compromised on the responsibilities of men.

Plain Old Bill · Oct 4, 2005

We should try to glorify God in all we do.Whether we are praying,studying god's Word,fellowshipping with other Christians,spending time with our families,we should at least attempt to bring glory to God in all that we do.
Witnessing ,evangelizing,or soul-winning are three different ways of saying the same thing.Anybody who does personal evangelizing or soul-winning knows it is the Holy Spirit that convicts and Christ that saves,we have the honor of making the introduction of Jesus Christ.I think we honor and glorify God when we do that if we are in the right spirit.

Scott J · Oct 4, 2005

Anybody who does personal evangelizing or soul-winning knows it is the Holy Spirit that convicts and Christ that saves

In theory, yes. They will give the right answer. In practice... well, that is another story.

Badgering someone mercilessly until they recite the sinner's prayer reflects someone who is dissatisfied with the Holy Spirit's effort.

Plain Old Bill · Oct 4, 2005

Who said anything about badgering,that would be counter productive. We present the Gospel,that is our duty,let God do the rest.

Scott J · Oct 4, 2005

You said "anybody who does... soul-winning knows..."

My point is that I have witnessed people who would agree with you verbally but whose actions contradict what you assert. These people were universally fond of the term "soul-winner" and often were it like a gaudy, self-glorifying medal of honor.

Plain Old Bill · Oct 4, 2005

I would call that false pride probably the result of poor teaching and a bad example.

Bro. John of Japan I don't know how much fruit you have personally been able to see and disciple.You make the introductions,you are the light on the hill.You have been there in Japan for over 20 years so the unsaved around you even know who you are and what you stand for,they know if there is a question they have about the God of the Bible that you can help them. The fact that you are the willing vessel of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in Japan brings glory to God.Do not be weary in well doing.

Soul-wiinning or the glory of God? Which?

Active Member

Active Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

<img src=/532.jpg>Banned

New Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

New Member

Active Member

New Member

Active Member

New Member