Soul-wiinning or the glory of God? Which?

Originally posted by John of Japan:
I appreciate what several of you have said trying to encourage me that I am doing right by staying in Japan. However, that is irrelevant to the discussion. I think I need to give some context here.

We have been in Japan 24 years. My doubts came after we started our first church here and found out how difficult it was. It was over 20 years ago that I came to terms with the fact that I would see very few saved here. Japan is "gospel resistant" (less than 1% Christian--including cults and Catholics--after 140 years of Protestant missions)

Two things helped me 20 years ago. (1) I read where there was a place where the hearts of the people were so hard that even Christ Himself "did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief." (Mt 13:58) (2) The director of our mission board visited us and convinced me that, according to dispensational (and I believe Biblical) theology, the purpose of humankind on earth is to glorify God.

Thus, this post. Do you agree with this, that our first duty as Christians is to glorify God (with soul-winning as one part of that), or is soul-winning the first duty of the Christian? (This is something I have heard many preachers say and have read in many books.)

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In answering another just recently, I may have found what you are seeking, viz. affirmation of what you have been convinced of. However I don’t believe glorifying God is a duty unless we tie it with soul winning, of which it eventually becomes. But for me, duty smacks of works, and we admit His glory when we are saved.

We are of the Spirit, and Paul explains we glorify God in our salvation. ”In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14. Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession,unto the praise of his glory,” Ephesians 1:13-14. When we believe, we are saved and sealed, and then we confess (acknowledge) Christ to the praise of His glory! In our faith, we acknowledge and praise God. So now we are Ambassadors for Christ, and some are chosen to be a Missionary in Japan.

The widow's mite's are going to be awfully big in the kingdom, and those in the Body of Christ don't always see the results the Word produces before, or after we cross the finish line.
Christian faith, ituttut.

Some good words, ituttut.

In reference to your point, "I don’t believe glorifying God is a duty," no it is not a duty. It is a way of life. If we are to glorify God "whether we eat, drink or whatever we do," then it is not an action per se, but a principle upon which every single action should be based.

Working in Japan tends to strip one of his pride (which of course keeps trying to come back). I met a young Japanese preacher at our pastors' fellowship on Monday who just started his first church in August with 52 at his first service, which was on a Saturday evening. However, that included his family (4), and people from several other churches. They got out 10,000 leaflets, and 3 people came from the actual community. On their first Sunday they had 5--the pastor and his family plus just one from the 10,000 leaflets. We all told him, hey, that's great--3 people from 10,000 leaflets, and one came again!! I often get out 10,000 tracts and have absolutely no response. This pastor is learning about the glory of God. When someone gets saved, he will know that it is all of God and none of him!

However, 18 years ago this young man came out of the JWs with 29 other Japanese! He gave his testimony for us and we all sat back and thought, "Glory to God!"

without reading all the post it would seem to me that Glorifying God is the most important thing to do. And if you are glorifying God you would naturally win souls. If we glorified God in everything we will obey in all areas of life that we wouldn't be if we were glorifying self

Originally posted by John of Japan:
Some good words, ituttut.

In reference to your point, "I don’t believe glorifying God is a duty," no it is not a duty. It is a way of life. If we are to glorify God "whether we eat, drink or whatever we do," then it is not an action per se, but a principle upon which every single action should be based.

Working in Japan tends to strip one of his pride (which of course keeps trying to come back). I met a young Japanese preacher at our pastors' fellowship on Monday who just started his first church in August with 52 at his first service, which was on a Saturday evening. However, that included his family (4), and people from several other churches. They got out 10,000 leaflets, and 3 people came from the actual community. On their first Sunday they had 5--the pastor and his family plus just one from the 10,000 leaflets. We all told him, hey, that's great--3 people from 10,000 leaflets, and one came again!! I often get out 10,000 tracts and have absolutely no response. This pastor is learning about the glory of God. When someone gets saved, he will know that it is all of God and none of him!

However, 18 years ago this young man came out of the JWs with 29 other Japanese! He gave his testimony for us and we all sat back and thought, "Glory to God!"

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Praise God, and yes, to God goes the glory. Bless you, and all others that spread the glorious “grace commission” of God our savior, through our Lord Jesus Christ. Christian faith, ituttut

Some seem to deny that there is any soul winning or persuading men as to the gospel. Why do it when they are unable to hear and respond apart from sovereign regeneration and Irresistable Grace imposed? If one must be regenerated and then made to believe, then persuading someone as to the truth of the gospel really doesn't have a purpose in evangelism; preaching it seems pointless (men can't understand, are unable to hear and respond). There is no persuading or convincing the unregenerate sinner and it really would be a waste of time to do so.

I guess those who believe such doctrine will just be content to give a short gospel message and see if God is going to do his trick and "effectually call" his elect. If after a very brief gospel message the person does not respond, well either 1) he is elect and God is not ready to effectually call him with irresisitable grace at this time or 2) he is unelect. Either way, persuasion is MEANINGLESS for it is falling on deaf, totally inable ears. Go on to the next one to see if they are elect and if God is ready to effectually call them by irresistible grace imposed.

Yet Paul expended himself for Christ doing exactly this: disputing and persuading in the attempt to win people to Christ. As soon as he was converted, Paul "confounded the Jews...at Damascus proving that this is very Christ..."(Acts 9:22). Everywhere he went Paul "disputed...in the synagogue...and in the market daily..." (Acts 17:17). The last chapter of Acts tells us that even under house arrest in Rome, Paul was still at it: "...there came many to him, ... to whom he expounded... persuading them concerning Jesus..." (Acts 28:23).

1 Cor 9:16, 19-22
...woe is me if I do not preach the gospel!...
For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law(not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; 22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
NKJV

This activity so desribed as Paul engaging in, for some here who hold certain doctrine, by virtue of this doctrine, MUST be meaningless and unprofitable.

Yet Paul did not think so...

Antonio

Originally posted by Free Gracer:
Some seem to deny that there is any soul winning or persuading men as to the gospel. Why do it when they are unable to hear and respond apart from sovereign regeneration and Irresistable Grace imposed? If one must be regenerated and then made to believe, then persuading someone as to the truth of the gospel really doesn't have a purpose in evangelism; preaching it seems pointless (men can't understand, are unable to hear and respond). There is no persuading or convincing the unregenerate sinner and it really would be a waste of time to do so.

I guess those who believe such doctrine will just be content to give a short gospel message and see if God is going to do his trick and "effectually call" his elect. If after a very brief gospel message the person does not respond, well either 1) he is elect and God is not ready to effectually call him with irresisitable grace at this time or 2) he is unelect. Either way, persuasion is MEANINGLESS for it is falling on deaf, totally inable ears. Go on to the next one to see if they are elect and if God is ready to effectually call them by irresistible grace imposed.

Yet Paul expended himself for Christ doing exactly this: disputing and persuading in the attempt to win people to Christ. As soon as he was converted, Paul "confounded the Jews...at Damascus proving that this is very Christ..."(Acts 9:22). Everywhere he went Paul "disputed...in the synagogue...and in the market daily..." (Acts 17:17). The last chapter of Acts tells us that even under house arrest in Rome, Paul was still at it: "...there came many to him, ... to whom he expounded... persuading them concerning Jesus..." (Acts 28:23).

1 Cor 9:16, 19-22
...woe is me if I do not preach the gospel!...
For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law(not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; 22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
NKJV

This activity so desribed as Paul engaging in, for some here who hold certain doctrine, by virtue of this doctrine, MUST be meaningless and unprofitable.

Yet Paul did not think so...

Antonio

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Poignant with understanding, acknowledging God did speak to Paul, making we all ambassadors in this foreign land we have come to understand. Some go that extra step of going into the unknown, with faith His will be done. Christian faith, ituttut

Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
I would call that false pride probably the result of poor teaching and a bad example.

Bro. John of Japan I don't know how much fruit you have personally been able to see and disciple.You make the introductions,you are the light on the hill.You have been there in Japan for over 20 years so the unsaved around you even know who you are and what you stand for,they know if there is a question they have about the God of the Bible that you can help them. The fact that you are the willing vessel of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in Japan brings glory to God.Do not be weary in well doing.

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Plain Old Bill, I meant to comment on this, but never got back to it. Thank you for the good word.

Knowing the the glory of God is most important has truly helped me keep an even keel in this Gospel-hardened land. I often think, when I evangelize and nothing happens, that God will call me forth at the Great White Throne Judgment to say, "Yes, I tried, but they did not listen." He will be glorified at that time. The Japanese will know His love in spite of their hate.

I'll never forget stopping to witness to an old man in his garden. I asked him, "Aren't you concerned about sin and death?" He told me that he had fought in WW2 on the Russian front in Manchuria. He was a tanker, and Japanese tanks were notably thin-armored, and one shell could take out a tank. For some reason his tank stopped suddenly, just in time to avoid a Russian shell, which exploded just in front of his tank. He told me, "I have looked death in the eye, and am not afraid of it. As for sin, I sinned in the war, and did terrible things. My country sinned and did terrible things. But I do not repent." He went back to his gardening, and went around the corner and wept. Someday God will be glorified before his eyes, and he will bow the knee before Christ before being cast into the lake of fire.

However, as John R. Rice used to say, "You can't win everyone, but you can always win someone." So I praise the Lord for Mrs. Shimazaki who professed faith in Christ through one of my tracts this year. Of course, she decided to go to our sister church across town, but hey, that's life in Japan!

It is obvious that man came under conviction.He may be thinking he is not worthy of forgiveness.Poor soul,nobody deserves or can earn forgiveness,God gives it because of how wonderful He is.You planted a seed , maybe it's not over yet.
I love reading your posts. Somehow you have touched my heart.I think it time I add you to my prayer list.

God Bless You & your Labor for our Lord Jesus Christ.

POB,