Distortion of Scripture

What is funny. It is not. I summarized it for you. But it still says the same thing, that in a previous post I explained in great detail. Look at it again.

"baptism now saves you--not"

The following phrase after "baptism now saves you begins with a negative adverb qualifiy the previous phrase. "NOT the removal of dirt from the flesh," Baptism does not save. Does baptism save--baptism does now save--not!--but but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
What saves? The answer of a good conscience toward God through Jesus Christ. It is quite clear that it is not baptism that saves. It is qualifed with NOT. This is simple English grammar. If you don't understand it, go back to school.

Foolishness!! And was Naaman saved? No! He was just as much as a heathen after he was "baptized" seven times, as before. He may have been healed physically, but he was not healed spiritually. Baptism does not save.

Your argument is quite moot, and doesn't make sense, for the reasons given above, and also for the context. The text in the Old Testament is not followed by the negative NOT. The text in 1Peter3:21 is. Learn how to read.

[/qb][/quote]Now, does 1 Pet 3:21 agree with or contradict Mark 16:16? What about Acts 2:38? What about Acts 22:16? What about Rom 6:3-4? What about Gal 3:26-27? [/QB][/QUOTE]
I have already ansered those other Scriptures. This post deals with 1Peter 3:21
DHK

 

DHK,

bmerr here. I've copied a part of your post, the part where you gave the WEB translation of a portion of 1 Pet 3:21. I've bolded a couple of things, and included a portion of your following comments in which you actually contradict the translation you said made it "very plain".

Hilarious!!!!!!

What a RIOT!!! Your "very plain" translation says outright that Noah's being saved during the flood is a symbol of "baptism, which now saves you", and you still get it wrong!!!!

Yeah, I'm the confused one here. Worried, actually. You don't actually teach anyone, do you?

I'm serious, if the stakes weren't so high, and you weren't headed for eternal destruction, this would be really funny. But the stakes are high, and you are in danger. Have you noticed that most of your supporters seem to have abandoned you?

In Christ,

bmerr

 

Precept Ministries

 

bmerr,

Good grief, man...are you losing your mind?

You are saying DHK is a hell bound lost person???

Nobody is "abandoning" anyone. DHK has made his point..very clearly...over and over and over again. And he has the support of the Holy Spirit who uses truth to convict people of that truth.

I sincerely hope you discern the Holy Spirits influence, because the Holy Spirit will never enlighten anyone towards any form of works justification, which you are proclaiming.

But the Holy Spirit will always convict and enlighten when justification through faith in Christ alone is being presented.

We are to be water baptised because it is a wonderful *picture* of the death to the old life (down into the water) and new birth into a new life (up from the water)...which has already taken place when a lost person embraces Christ through faith alone.

It would be impossible for the scriptures to be more clear.

God bless,

Mike

 

There is so much confusion about "What is Truth" mainly because of 4 different things.

1.People try to take one or two Bible verses to support their theories, instead of comparing all they can find about any given subject and allowing each verse to have it's proper weight. They start out wanting a thing to be so, and then find a few Bible verses to try to justify their beliefs.

But the Bible says 1Cor:2:13: "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

2. People who want to sin or want to do a certain "bad act" will try to use the Bible to justify their position instead of determining that WHATEVER the Bible says, they will be willing to accept it, no matter if it cuts across their own inclinations. And so, again... they will try to grab at whatever Bible verses seem to support their theory. This is done many times for instance, when people want to justify their idea that "all we have to do is believe". They will ignore every Bible verse that tells them otherwise and/or try to wiggle their way around it somehow.

3.People just accept whatever their religious leaders tell them instead of searching the Bible for themselves.

4. People will take Bible verses that are just as plain as they can be, and decide that because they dont LIKE what the Bible verse says, that they will just ignore the verses. Or they will try to pretend the verses have some sort of a "mysterious" meaning that only the elite may understand. Let me give an example:

So many Christians today make the "Mark of the Beast" and its meaning out to be some really mysterious thing that we need some Bible Scholar to explain to us. But let me show you something. Just simply read this and take it for what it says:

Revelation 14:
6: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7: Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8: And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10: The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


NOW... notice at the end of this warning about the Mark of the Beast it plainly and simply TELLS YOU who are God's people in this whole scenario... "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" (verse 12).

After the warning against the worship of the beast and his image the prophecy declares: "Here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." Since those who keep God's commandments are thus placed in contrast with those that worship the beast and his image and receive his mark, it follows that the keeping of God's law, on the one hand, and its violation, on the other, will make the distinction between the worshipers of God and the worshipers of the beast. And so obviously, those who do receive the Mark of the Beast will have no regard for the commandments of God, while at the same time, God's people do observe them.

Reader, do you see that if we will just allow the Bible to explain itself, it then becomes easy to understand what it means? Instead of imagining all sorts of theories about what it means, we need to let God reveal the truth to us by comparing scripture with scripture. So many Christians have made conjectures about what the Mark of the Beast is such as having to do with computer chips and bar codes, when the Bible doesn’t say that at all. If God is going to give us a final serious warning message He is not going to leave us to guess at what it means.

But do you know why some pretend they dont know what the Mark of the Beast is? because they dont WANT to keep the commandments. And this is why there are so many denominations. Being that the natural heart is evil, people can come up with all kinds of pretty fancy and elaborate ways to skirt around issues.


Human theories and speculations will never lead to an understanding to God's word. Those who suppose that they understand philosophy think that their explanations are necessary to unlock the treasures of knowledge and to prevent heresies from coming into the church. But it is these explanations that have brought in false theories and heresies. Men have made desperate efforts to explain what they thought to be intricate scriptures; but too often their efforts have only darkened that which they tried to make clear.

The priests and Pharisees thought they were doing great things as teachers by putting their own interpretation upon the word of God, but Christ said of them, "Ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God." Mark 12:24. He charged them with the guilt of "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Mark 7:7. Though they were the teachers of the oracles of God, though they were supposed to understand His word, they were not doers of the word. Satan had blinded their eyes that they should not see its true import.

This is the work of many in our day. Many churches are guilty of this sin. There is danger, great danger, that the supposed wise men of today will repeat the experience of the Jewish teachers. They falsely interpret the divine oracles, and souls are brought into perplexity and shrouded in darkness because of their misconception of divine truth.

The Scriptures need not be read by the dim light of tradition or human speculation. As well might we try to give light to the sun with a torch as to explain the Scriptures by human tradition or imagination. God's holy word needs not the torchlight glimmer of earth to make its glories distinguishable. It is light in itself--the glory of God revealed, and beside it every other light is dim.

But there must be earnest study and close investigation. Sharp, clear perceptions of truth will never be the reward of indolence. No earthy blessing can be obtained without earnest, patient, persevering effort. If men attain success in business, they must have a will to do and a faith to look for results. And we cannot expect to gain spiritual knowledge without earnest toil. Those who desire to find the treasures of truth must dig for them as the miner digs for the treasure hidden in the earth. No halfhearted, indifferent work will avail. It is essential for old and young, not only to read God's word, but to study it with wholehearted earnestness, praying and searching for truth as for hidden treasure. Those who do this will be rewarded, for Christ will quicken the understanding.


Disobedience has closed the door to a vast amount of knowledge that might have been gained from the Scriptures. Understanding means obedience to God's commandments. The Scriptures are not to be adapted to meet the prejudice and jealousy of men. They can be understood only by those who are humbly seeking for a knowledge of the truth that they may obey it.

Do you ask, What shall I do to be saved? You must lay your preconceived opinions, your hereditary and cultivated ideas, at the door of investigation. If you search the Scriptures to vindicate your own opinions, you will never reach the truth. Search in order to learn what the Lord says. If conviction comes as you search, if you see that your cherished opinions are not in harmony with the truth, do not misinterpret the truth in order to suit your own belief, but accept the light given. Open mind and heart that you may behold wondrous things out of God's word.

Faith in Christ as the world's Redeemer calls for an acknowledgment of the enlightened intellect controlled by a heart that can discern and appreciate the heavenly treasure. This faith is inseparable from repentance and transformation of character. To have faith means to find and accept the gospel treasure, with all the obligations which it imposes.

"Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3. He may conjecture and imagine, but without the eye of faith he cannot see the treasure. Christ gave His life to secure for us this inestimable treasure; but without regeneration through faith in His blood there is no remission of sins. And without being born again you will not be able to "see" what is in God's Word.

 

bmerr (to DHK): "Have you noticed most
of your supporters seem to have
abandoned you?"

We didn't abandon DHK.
We left earlier cause DHK was so
far ahead in the debate there is no
way his opponent(s) could ever catch up.

DHK won the debate and we, his supporters,
had a party and then we left. The word
'abandon' is not applicable

 

I'm still looking for scriptural support that baptism, or any work, saves. Must be there next to the scriptural support for single-translation-onlyism.

 

It couldnt be clearer.

At some point during the hearing of the gospel Cornelious and his family entered into saving faith. And thats faith alone. They did no "works" of any kind. They were simply sitting their listening.

We know they were sealed into the body of Christ because God in this case granted the gift of tongues as a sign.(He doesnt always do that, only when He chooses to. This time He chose to)

After that the word of God says...

God says we are water baptised after entering into faith, recieving the Holy Spirit and being saved.

Men come along and say "NO! You must be water baptised to recieve the Holy Spirit and be saved!"

God...

God bless.

Mike

 

God says we are water baptised after entering into faith, recieving the Holy Spirit and being saved.

Men come along and say "NO! You must be water baptised to recieve the Holy Spirit and be saved!"

God...

God bless.

Mike </font>[/QUOTE]Acts 11:14 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.’ 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning.

Question, how can you believe something you have not even heard? The HS fell on them as he BEGAN to speak.

The only command or order Peter gave them was to be baptized, "So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.-Acts 10:48

When Peter preached on Pentecost, He told them to, "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins".

In Acts 3:19 he says, "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,"

Lets compare the two verses.

Acts 2:38 = Acts 3:19
Repent = Repent
be baptized = be converted
for the remission of sins = that your sins may be blotted out

Peter has not changed his message. He is simply restating it. The bible does this time and time again. Baptism is clearly tied to conversion.

Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, he that believeth not shall be condemned."

Did Jesus really mean this, or did he mean something else?

 

Acts 2:38, "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..."

Acts 3:19 "Repent therefore and be converted that your sins may be blotted out"

Acts 2:38 = Acts 3:19
Repent = Repent
Be baptized = Be converted
For the remission of sins = That your sins may be blotted out

Peter is not saying two different things, but the same thing in a different way. Baptism is tied to conversion.

Preaching Jesus includes instructions for water baptism (Acts 8:35-36, for example).

Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, he that believeth not shall be condemned."

Did Jesus mean this or did he really mean to say something else?

[ July 26, 2005, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: mman ]

 

First of all, baptism is not a work. The bible does not call it a work, only people on this board.

Second, the bible shows baptism is part of faith. Gal 3:26-27, "for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. - ESV

Col 2:12 states, "having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

This is the only time any type of works are ever associated with baptism and it is God doing the work, not man.

Baptism is not a work of merit. It does not earn anything. If it did, all who were plunged beneath the waters, for any reason, would obtain the remission of sins, and that is not the case.

Why would anyone be baptized? Because God said to. It's not from any human logic or wisdom. Most folks count it as foolishness. Some even go as far as saying it is a pagan ritual.

You can search your bible from cover to cover and you will only find ONE way to get INTO Christ and that is through baptism. Do you think or does the bible teach that anyone can be saved OUTSIDE of Christ?

If salvation is in Christ (II Tim 2:10), how do you get INTO Christ? What sayeth the scripture?

A passage so plain, that one would literally have to have help to misunderstand it is Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, he that believeth not shall be condemned."

Did Jesus really mean this or did he mean something else?

 

Either you believe the heresy that the blood of Jesus Christ was not sufficient enough to pay the penalty for your sins, and you insult our Saviour by saying "Jeus I am just helping you along to atone for the sins of the world by my baptism," or there is an obvious alternative explanation to the above verses, other than the COC interpretation which you have given. I prefer to believe the latter.
DHK

 

Very interesting comment. I did nothing to explain the verses, yet they don't come to the conclusion you want them to after reading them. I did not spin them, explain them, just presented them. You don't like their obvious meaning, so you look for an "alternative explanation". Why not accept them for what they say.

You are the one insulting Jesus. He plainly said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."

You say, that is not true. You say, "He that beliveth is saved and shall be baptized". You don't believe or accept Jesus' plain statement in Mark 16:16 do you? You are forced to search for an alternative obscure meaning, rather than accept the plain teaching.

Even though it has been stated MANY times before, I will do it again. The blood of Jesus washes away our sins. Nothing else can!

How do we come in contact with the blood? Through belief only? Where is the scripture to support that idea?

What do the scriptures say? Where did his blood flow? At his death? Romans 6:3-4 says that we are baptized into his death. Nowhere else do the scriptures say we come in contact with His death.

Lets go another route. Heb 9:22 says that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. We know it is His blood and not the blood of bulls and goats (Heb 10:4). Matt 26:28 plainly states that his blood was shed "for the remission of sins". That same phrase, "for the remission of sins" is used in Acts 2:38. It tells us that baptism is "for the remission of sins", again tying baptism to the blood and remission of sins.

Lets try another route. Eph 1:7 says "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace". In whom? Christ. How do we get into Christ? Again, back to baptism (Rom 6:3-4, Gal 3:27).

You have the misconception that baptism is a work. You state that we are saved by faith, apart from works. I wholeheartly agree. We are saved by faith apart from works. There is nothing we can do to earn our salvation, not even one moment of it.

We must, however, correctly understand biblical faith. Heb 11 if devoted to biblical faith. Their actions did not earn the results, but were done because God gave them instuctions and they obeyed. Read Gal 3:26-27. It says we are childern of God by faith because we have been baptized INTO Christ.

Lets go another route, what else did Jesus' blood do? It purchased the church, according to Acts 20:28. Christ is savior of the body (Eph 5:23) which is the church (Eph 1:22-23, Col 1:18). How do we get INTO the church? We are baptized into the church that was purchased with his blood (I Cor 12:13). Christ adds to the church those who are being saved (Acts 2:47). Baptism adds us the the church, again tying the water to the blood.

When Philip taught the Eunuch, he preached Jesus which included water baptism (Acts 8:35-36). See how nicely this all ties together. Baptism washes away our sins. Isn't that exactly what Saul was told to do after believing and praying for 3 days,"And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord Acts 22:16." Why did this believer have sins to be washed away after 3 days of praying? Only because he had not come in contact with the blood of Christ.

You see, it is not the water, but the blood of Jesus. Not because God owes us anything or we earn anything in baptism, but by our faithful obedience. You cannot lay out a logical, whole truth, explaination using scriptures of how we obtain the remission of sins, how we get into Christ, or how we get into the Church without mentioning baptism (water) and the blood.

Did you ever wonder why blood and water came forth from Jesus' side (John 19:34). Isn't it obvious! We are baptized into his death (Rom 6:3-4), baptized into Christ (Rom 6:3-4, Gal 3:27), we are baptized into the body/church (I Cor 12:13, Acts 2:41,47), all of which are tied to His blood.

 

The steps for salvation are given in the text above –
#1. The Word.
#2. Confess AND Believe (with the heart)
#3. Saved!

It is OUT of that new believing relationship that one CONTINUES to study the bible and to find out about acts of obedience such as “Baptism”.

But someone may ask “Why not a lost unbeliever that simply reads about Baptism and then decides for it WITHOUT actually yet believing, without being born again without being in fellowship with Christ – but still as an unsaved lost person?”

Paul already gave that answer to the church in Corinth.

By contrast to the born again “Believer” who IS enabled to read with insight and obey – 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him;

 

And that explains the fact that we see the thief on the cross spiritually alive and discerning even without Baptism and it explains the Acts 10 outpouring of the Holy Spirit on those who heard and who believed even BEFORE Baptism. (Not to mention the OT saints listed in Heb 11 that were never baptized)

 

Mar 16:16 (KJV1611 Edition):
He that beleeueth and is baptized, shalbe saued,
but he that beleeueth not, shall be damned.

This scripture has to be added to
made it say:

He that beleeueth and is baptized, shalbe saued,
but he that beleeueth AND IS BAPTIZED
not, shall be damned.

I generally try to stay away from adding
to the scripture

Jesus saves, not baptism.

 

Earl, what does this scripture say it takes to be saved?

What does it say it takes to be condemned?

Which part of it do you not believe?

 

How do you know he was not baptized? Multitudes were baptized under John's baptism, why are you so certain he wasn't one of them. Regardless, the thief was under the old covenant.

The new covenant could only be valid after the death of Christ, not before (Heb 9:17 ...it never takes effect while the one who made it is living).

 

Bob,

Is Romans 10 the only place where you find verses dealing with salvation?

Are the other verses relevant?

Obviously, you think repentance is unnecessary and irrelevant. It is not in your list.

The bible doesn't teach us everything about a subject in one verse. While each verse is true, you have to have all God said about a topic to have the whole truth.

Example, Did Jesus baptize people? John 3:22 - After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He remained with them and baptized.

John 3:26 - And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified—behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!”

If you read this verses at the exclusion of all others, then you would come to the WRONG conclusion that Jesus, himself, was baptizing people.

How do I know? Because John 4:2,-2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples),

You see, one truth has to be laid upon another to have the whole truth.

The simple fact is that there are other passages to lay on top of Rom 10.

Acts 2:38 - Tells us baptism is for the remission of sins

Acts 22;16 - Baptism washes away our sins.

Mark 16:16 - Baptism is a prerequisite for salvation

I Pet 3:31 - Baptism saves us

Rom 6:3-4 - We are baptized into Christ

Gal 3:26-27 We are children by faith because we have been baptized

The passages you listed in Rom 10 are true, but so are these. They compliment what is said in Rom 10, not contradict or invalidate.

So many people want to put their blinders on and ignore the plain teaching, holding on to one passage at the exclusion of all others. Until all are accepted and embraced, you can never have the whole truth.

Mark 16:16, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved and he that believeth not shall be condemned.

Did Jesus really mean this or did he mean to say something else?