Distortion of Scripture

bmree,

You said...

You have just articulated a false gospel. A gospel of works, because you have added the work of "repenting of my sins" and the work of "water baptism by the authority of Christ" to faith.

God says...

"It is by grace that you are saved, through faith. And that not of yourself, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast"

"Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God."

"even the rightiousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe."

"to demonstrate at this time His rightiousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

"knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ Jesus and not by the works of the law, for by the works of the law no flesh will be justified."

I could go on and on for hours of course. God thunders justification through faith alone from the entirety of His scriptures.

You do. It is not mental affirmation of facts. I believed all of the correct facts concerning Jesus Christ for decades as a Catholic and was no more born again than Satan himself.

I am talking about what God affirms, and is that we are justified by faith alone, not intellectual ascent to facts alone.

Not in the least.

No they wouldnt. They had intellectual ascent. We are justified by faith alone, and after that the fruit of our justification and new birth will become evident by the fruit which will appear in our lives.

The fruit flows from our justification, but has no part in our attaining justification.

Not meaning that we are required to add works to our faith to be justified. That turns the saving gospel into a false gospel. That is precisely what God was adressing through Paul in Galaciens when God said that if anyone comes along with a different gospel than justification through faith alone let him be accursed.

That pretty serious.

"Works" in relation to the saving gospel means anything in the form of our "doing" that we add to embracing Christ through faith.

God bless,

Mike

 

D28Guy,

bmerr here. Then was James wrong in his reasoning? Or can one be saved without being justified?

In Christ,

bmerr

 

No, You are wrong in your reasoning.
Simple reason: The Bible doesn't contradict itself.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

The second reason: You fail to take into consideration the purpose for which James is writing and the theme of the Book of James.
The theme: Practical Christian Living.
He is not writing about salvation, like Paul is in Romans 4.

You fail even to understand the context of the second chapter, the key verse of which, I posted above (vs. 18). James challenges others and tells them that he will demonstrate his faith by his works. His works has nothing to do with his salvation; they are a result of it. They come because he is saved--after he is saved. They in no way are a part of his salvation. Understand what he is saying. Salvation without works is not salvation at all, but only because salvation (by faith alone) so changes a person that works will be very evident in his life. That is what James is all about. And that is what James is teaching, in spite of the spin you are trying to put on it. All the verses have to harmonize together, and all the Books of the Bible have to harnonize together. Your interpretation does not.
DHK

 

Bmerr,

The book of James fits perfectly and beautifully with the truth of justification through faith alone.

James is speaking of someone who *claims* to have faith but is devoid of any fruit that proves his faith is legitimate.

God bless,

Mike

 

D28guy,

bmerr here. Believe it or not, I can go along with this:

I would agree that one who decides to become a Christian ought to behave differently than those of the world around him.

But here's the glitch in my understanding of your position: regardless of whether James speaks of salvation, or practical Christian living, the idea of "justification by faith alone" is flatly denied in this chapter. James 2:24 is the only place in all of Scripture that places the words "faith" and "only" side by side in a sentence.

James writes to those he calls, "My brethren" (1:2). At some point, James was convinced that his audience was of the same heart and mind as he was. What would cause him to think of these people as brethren, if they were not demonstrating appropriate works?

At what point would he start calling them "brethren", when he knew that "not everyone that saith unto me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" (Matt 7:21)?

What had they done to be counted as brethren?

James main point in this chapter IMO, is that faith is perfected (made complete) by works, and that faith without works is dead. There is no such thing as Biblical faith apart from works. That's the thrust of Hebreews 11. This NT writer tells us that "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" (11:6). He also points to OT examples of faith to give us a picture of the kind of faith that pleases God.

Not one of the examples given shows someone simply believing without doing what God said to do.

"By faith Abel offered...by which he obtained witness that he was righteous..."

"By faith Noah...prepared an ark..."

"By faith Abraham...obeyed..."

That's what the Bible means when it talks about faith.

So, getting back to James, what did the recipients of his letter do to become known as "brethren? How were they justified?

In Christ,

bmerr

 

That's incorrect. James is indeed talking about salvation, the kind of faith that saves...

"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works. Can faith save him?" (James 2:14). This a rhetorical question, and James proceeds to answer "no" with the rest of the passage--if one does not have works one cannot be justified/saved.

"Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead" (James 2:17). Such a dead "faith" doesn't justify (which is confirmed in verse 24) but only, as Paul says, a faith working through love (Gal 5:6). This is the way in which faith "avails" (as Paul says) and "profits" (as James says) and both are mentioned in the context of salvation/justification.

And of course, James, inspired by God, specifically says in verse 24: "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only". So James and Paul and Peter and John all agree with each other and with Christ that salvation/justification is not granted to faith "alone"--to a naked or a dead "faith"--but only to faith which works through love, a faith which is proven and made perfect by loving acts of obedience.

[ August 03, 2005, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: Doubting Thomas ]

 

DHK,

bmerr here. Yeah, what he said.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

That's incorrect. </font>[/QUOTE]No it is not incorrect. You understanding of this passage is very much incorrect.

What was James teaching here? Remember the theme of the book? Practical Christian Living.
"Can faith save him"
The meaning here is: "Can their Christian faith, that is their Chrisianity, if not outwardly practiced, physically save those that are hungry. The word faith refers to Christianity, or more to the point "Baptist faith," for example. The word save, refersy to a physical salvation, as in keeping them from starvation. It is not speaking of salvation at all. He is speaking of the good works of a Christian. See how easy it is to misunderstand the context in which James is writing. If a Christian stands around and does nothing, does no good works at all, doesn't try to help anyone, etc., James questions if he is really a Christian in the first place. True Christianity brings forth the fruit of the Spirit. It brings forth good works. But good works never brings forth salvation.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
The devils (demons) believe also, and yet are not saved. What is the difference. There's is only a mental assent of existence. They do not believe in the saving power of God, in fact they rebel against God.
Belief in God is far more than mental assent. It is a living faith that produces works. This chapter is not about salvation per se. It is about works which are a result of a living faith in Christ.
If you just have a mental assent, lip service toward God, and no works, then your faith is dead. It is not the faith that comes from your heart, that God demands (Rom.10:9). It is mere profession without possession. Works is the product of saving faith.

The key verse:
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
--Our faith is demonstrated by our works. Our works are never part of our faith.

Peter, James, and Paul all agree that a man is justified by faith and faith alone. This wonderful truth is repeated over and over again in Scripture in almost every book of the Bible including the Old Testament books.
Again, to understand the statement you cannot take it out of its context as you just did, but read in its context of practical Christian living, and realize that a man is justified by faith alone, and the proof of that justification is in its works.
DHK

 

No, yours is, and this is easily demonstrated.

Wow...that is a horrendous distortion of the context. Here's the verse again:
"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works. Can faith save him?"(James 2:14) The one in question (about whom can be saved by faith or not) is the one who claims to have faith but doesn't have works. "Someone", "him", and "he" all refer to that same individual. That question (and that "saving") has nothing to do with physically "saving" the hungry--ie, someone else.

As indeed he should.

Yet, one is never saved without good works.

Hear Paul:
"(God) who 'will render to each one according to their deeds': eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory honor and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil" (Romans 2:6-9).

True (except for your third sentence), and without these works any alleged faith is dead and therefore unable to justify/save.

True, but James also states that such works perfect faith (v.22) and that without these works there is no justification since there is no living faith.

Only half right. They agree that one is justified by faith alright, but not faith alone. Works do not passively flow from one simply because he or she at one time made a heart-felt declaration of faith in Christ and invited Him into his heart. (If it was passive or automatic, then Paul would never have to command Christians to be "careful to maintain good works"--Titus 3:8). Less still is one finally and ultimately justified because of a one-time faith "experience". The life of faith must be continuous and ongoing, being constantly demonstrated by and completed by works of love for it to avail for salvation. (Peter wrote that one must be diligent to add to faith virtue, knowledge, self-control, perserverance, godliness, brotherly kindess, and love so that one's election would be sure and so that he wouldn't stumble and that an entrance would be supplied to him into the everlasting kingdom [2 Peter 1:5-11]. Diligence implies effort not passivity.)

So you see, faith and faithfulness go hand and hand. One cannot separate the two and fallaciously maintain that one is justified by faith apart from loving acts of obedience.

 

Look at the context again.
James 2:15-17 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
15 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

What does it profit if your "so-called" Christian faith is not able to be put in action and even help those that are in need. You, DT, call yourself a Catholic, like my next door neighbor. I don't see him involved in helping the needy and doing any good works. Nor do I see his life evidenced by the fruit of the Spirit. I suppose he would call himself a Christian just because he is a RC. But there is no evidence in his life that he is. His faith is dead, devoid of any works. He may call himself a Christian but doesn't act like one. he doesn't even go to church. I doubt if he could find the gospel of John if given a Bible.
Even so faith if it hath not works is dead being alone
Call yourself a Christian all you like (like he does). But if your life does not demonstrate it by its works, I doubt if you are.

How is his "faith" his Catholicism, going to "save" those hungry people from starvation. It is not. He has not works. He doesn't care.

Just like the thief on the cross wasn't saved without good works, or those who trust Christ near the hour of their death are not saved without good works? Are you another one that believes in such a cruel God that you also would condemn such ones to Hell. I am glad I don't serve your God. I don't judge the heart. God does. Only generally speaking can we say that good works is a product of salvation. We can dogmatically say that good works is not a part of salvation, and one can be saved without them. For the Bible says that we are justified by faith. Not by works. The Bible is clear on this subject.
"Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God." (Rom.5:1) The Bible doesn't contradict itself. Do you believe this verse or not?

Paul was warning the unsaved Jew of what would happen if they did not repent. Verse 7 is a contrast. It means that those who already have eternal life will patientlt continue in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality. This is the fruit of the saved.

Works do not justify. Check Romans 5:1

Also:
Romans 3:27-28 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Again, You need to understand the theme of the book. The works are the product of a faith that is right with God. They are the product, not part of the salvation. Salvation is not of works, never was.

Show me that through Eph.2:8,9
This passage has "faith alone" written all over it. Why don't you give me a good explanation for it.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What are you talking about? Mumble Jumble?
A work is a work is a work. And there are no works involved in salvation which is entirely by faith. Works have nothing to do with faith. People work every day. What does faith have to do with a carpenter or a bus driver? The good works of a Christian are no different. What faith does it take to go and comfort the sick, give to the poor? It doesn't take faith at all. They are just good works. Salvation is by faith, not of good works.

It is a nice thought but it is not Biblical. It is a mark of a false religion.

So what? None of that has to do with our salvation. All of that has to do with our walk with Christ.

No, just because you have created a false dichotomy doesn't make it true.
DHK

 

Doubting Thomas,

"For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith. And that not of yourself, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast."

Thats the point we are making. Why do disagree with us one minute...and agree the next? Why do you "falter between two opinions?"

"For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith. And that not of yourself, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast"

"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God"

Yes we can.

"For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith. And that not of yourself, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast"

"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God"

Your choice is to either agree with what God says and let the scriptures fit together like a hand in a glove, or continue to "falter between two opinions" and have scriptures that contradict one another and cause "grace to no longer be grace".

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

I cannot agree more with this statement.

Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" - Mark 16:16

Peter said, "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" - Acts 2:38

Paul was told, "Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins" Acts 22:16

Peter said, "Baptism doth now also save us" - I Pet 3:21

Paul said, "For by grace have you been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast" - Eph 2:8-9

Paul also said, "for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." - Gal 3:26-27

All of these statements are true and fit together perfectly. One verse does not negate another, but rather is in harmony and full agreement.

Titus 2:11 says, "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,"

Does this mean all men will be saved? Of course not. Most men will be lost according to Matt 7:13-14.

In fact, Jesus said in Matt 7:21, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Faith alone cannot save. These people are sincere, but sincerely wrong.

Question, Did God give Jericho to the childern of Israel? (Josh 6:2)

Did they have to "do" anything to receive that gift?

By faith the walls of Jericho fell down (Heb 11:30). Do you really believe the walls would have fallen down without obedience to God's instructions? Remember, they fell by faith.

I know this seems like foolishness, but Jesus said in words so plain that you truly have to have help to MISUNDERSTAND them, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved". Did he really mean that or did he mean to say something else?

 

DHK,

bmerr here. Sir, you've done it again! You make the claim that the Bible says something that it simply does not say. Only this time, you actually give the Scripture you misquote, and expose youreself as one adding to the word of God. Don't you know that's dangerous?

Here's what I mean:

Honestly, sir! Where do you see the phrase, "faith alone" in that (or any other) verse? It's not here.

Prov 30:5, 6 says,

5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

No comment needed.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

This verse was posted...

And Bmerr said...

You know, I would almost think I was watching comedy central...if it werent so mind bogglingly sad.

Bmerr...do you honestly...HONESTLY...expect any clear thinking person to buy such nonsense as you just posted.

I'm serious...there are intelligent people on these boards. Not dullards...sharp people. Bright people.

Dont you know how such a response as yours there causes you to come across? Its almost as if you dont want to be taken seriously or something.

Sadly,

Mike

 

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 3:27-28 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 4:6-7 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Romans 4:23-25 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

There are hundreds, literally hundreds of other verses--both Old Testament and New, that teach the same thing: that a man is justified by faith and faith alone; as all of the above teach. It does not have to use the very word "alone" to teach alone. "Alone" is taught in these verses by the very implication that nothing else is added. That truth is self evident. There is no mention in all of these verses. The sum totality of Scriptures declare unto us that baptism has nothing to do with salvation. To say that it does is heresy, if not pagan superstition.
DHK

 

Still waiting for the verse (any verse) that says we are justified by "faith alone". Again, the only verse that has "faith alone" in the context of justification is James 2:24 which specifically states that one is "justified by works and not by faith alone." It's truly amazing the lengths people will go to distort scripture in order to deny this. ("Stunning", I tell you!)

Very sadly,
DT

 

Mark 16:16. It seems, according to DHK, that Jesus was a heretic and pagan. Bad luck, Lord...

Thanks, DHK, but I'd rather stick with what Jesus says if you don't mind

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

DHK,

The reasoning you are using is flawed at its' core. Here is your statement:

Let me summarize my understanding of the "logic" you're using. Since only faith is mentioned in the verses you cited, then the conclusion is that they teach salvation by "faith only".

If this is the case, then I'm going to start sleeping in on Sundays, go back to drinking heavily on the weekends, see if I can get back into the local music scene, cursing and swearing, and generally start living like a heathen again.

Why would I do that? one might ask. Simple: because the Bible contradicts itself. (Please bear with me, I'm using "faith only" reasoning).

I figure if the Bible contradicts itself even ONE TIME, then it's not worthy to be trusted, and there is no God.

You see, DHK gave a wonderful list of verses that say we're saved by faith, and since no other conditions are given in these verses, then they obviously teach that we're saved "by faith only".

But I read in 1 Pet 3:21 that "...baptism doth also now save us...", and there are no other conditions listed in that verse, so it obviously teaches that we are saved by "baptism only".

And if that weren't bad enough, Romans 8:24 says that we're "saved by hope", and since no other conditions are listed, it must obviously teach that we're saved "by hope only".

So it's at least a triple contradiction, based on seeing these verses as the "faith only" crowd seems to.

Fortunately, this reasoning is anything but logical. The Bible says in Ps 119:160 (ASV 1901), "The sum of thy word is truth..." In order to discern the whole truth of God's word on any subject, we must find all of what it says in reference to that subject.

Time does not permit me to give all that the NT says concerning salvation, but the conditions of pardon have been given numerous times. Suffice it to say for now, that "faith without works is dead".

In Christ,

bmerr

 

I regret that you don't believe that the English language has synonymns, or perhaps you just haven't studied the English language. I don't know which. There are different ways of saying things. But to hang your theology on one specific English word, when there are so many others that mean the same thing, is very sad. It is even self-comdemning. Sad, but true.

If you know that I have only one daughter.
And I tell you: I came home without my daughter.
It means I came home alone.
How profound.
Justification without works means justification by faith alone. (whether or not the alone is added--to add it would simply be redundant). The Lord was a good grammarian. He didn't see fit for the sake of Catholics to be so redundant throughout the Scriptures. Justification by faith repeated over and over again, means: justification by faith alone. Ask the Lord. He will tell you. He told me. That is all I need to know. Don't try to confuse yourself by contradicting the Bible.
DHK

 

Bmerr,
Give me a post when it makes sense.
The Bible gives many commands. We all know that, and we all agree with that. But not all commands are related to salvation. You have chosen to take a Scripture here and a Scripture there--out of its context of course, and try and make a point with it.
The fact is that the one major them all throughout the Bible is that a man is justified by faith, and faith alone. There are other commands in the Bible, unrelated to salvation. There are even other things that are related to salvation. That doesnt' change this one great theme. Nothing but faith alone in the shed blood of Jesus Christ can justify a man. You can pull all the references you want out of the Bible, but it won't change this fact.

The Bible says: "There is no God" in Psalm 14:1. Do you believe this also? It does.
You do the same thing with 1Pet.3:21.
DHK