Distortion of Scripture

Expecting a miracle?

James 2:24
People are justified (declared righteous before God) by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone. Genuine faith will produce good works, but only faith in Christ saves.

 

P-Nut & DHK,

bmerr here. So according to you guys, salvation is by faith apart from works, but this faith which has no works produces works. Do I have that right?

If so, then we are saved by what the Bible describes as dead faith, but from this dead, saving faith, springs works which make it genuine, living faith. And you imply that I make no sense!

In reference to your illustration, DHK,

In order for this to be true, I would have to assume that you have no wife, sons, or any other family or friends that could possibly accompany you to your house. Is this the case? Do you not have any other family or friends?

(I'm sorry if it is the case. I know that sometimes tragic events can leave a man bereft of family and friends, and would not stoop so low as to open "old wounds".)

What I'm getting at is that I would have to investigate to see if there were anyone else that might come home with you besides your daughter.

I have not taken 1 Pet 3:21 out of context, either. Do we need to go over this again? It says,

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

Just for fun, let's look at the verse without the parenthetical portion, and then look at the part in paretheses by itself.

"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

The portion of the verse in parentheses is an explanation of what baptism is, and is not. First, what baptism is not,

(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh...)

Baptism is not the removal of dirt and other impurities from the body.

(...but the answer of a good conscience toward God}

Baptism is the answer (inquiry, appeal - marginal reading ASV) of a good conscience toward God.

So baptism saves us through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

Another statement you made is confusing, DHK.

What are these things, and with these things in mind, how can you still believe salvation is by "faith alone"?

In Christ,

bmerr

 

"... how can you still believe salvation is by "faith alone"?

I think we would all agree that salvation is a gift from God. That pretty well implies He is just giving it to us without our earning it. As such it is acceptance by faith of God's gift which allows us eternal life. I think we would also all agree that the indwelling of the Spirit changes a person.

A person whose life demonstrates NO WORKS is not unsaved BECAUSE of a lack of works - but one might speculate that the person who has NO WORKS never really had an indwelling of the Spirit.

No contradiction here.

 

Exactly, bravo. "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works , which God prepared in advance for us to do." We are created in Christ Jesus for the purpose of doing good works. We have to be in Christ before we can do good works.

"Dead faith?' Come on bmerr, get a grip will ya!

 

P-Nut,

bmerr here. Well, that's what James says faith without works is - "dead".

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" (James 2:14 - rhetorical question, implies a negative answer - no.)

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" (James 2:17)

"As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James 2:26).

Thus my restating of your position, that being that we are saved by a dead faith. It's not Biblical. It doesn't even make common sense.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

Faith without works is a mere intellectual acceptance of certain truths without trust in Christ as Savior. Faith with works is genuine and comes from the faith that saves. Intellectual faith is dead and cannot save you. James was referring to a counterfeit faith that doesn't produce good works.

Which one do you have?

 

bmerr,

"Thus my restating of your position, that being that we are saved by a dead faith. It's not Biblical. It doesn't even make common sense."

"Sola fide" is a reductio ad absurdum. Salvation by "faith alone" was never meant to imply that works are not important, particularly as they are signs of a new man. The significance of sola fide is in the fact that it is our faith in God that saves us; it is God's grace and not the merit of our works which brings about our salvation. Without God's generosity, even our rituals (praying a certain way, being dunked in water, going to a church that doesn't use instruments) mean NOTHING.

 

No one has ever been saved by mere mental acceptance of truth. no one has ever been saved by a mere feeling or spirit. The faith that saves always ACTS. It Always has, and always will be the case! Hebrews 11:6. An obedient active faith is the ONLY faith that saves. Romans 15:26, Hebrews 5:8,9, John 3:36, II Thes. 1:6-9.

 

Partly right. Salvation is by faith apart from works. That part is right. It is almost a direct quote from Eph.2:8,9.
"But this faith which has no works produces works."
Maybe; maybe not.
Was the thief on the cross baptized? Did he ever do any good work after he believed?
Secondly, Do we dare put outselves in the place of God and judge the heart?
As a general rule we observe the fruit (works) and make a judgement about one's salvation. But our judgements are fallible. We are not God. Just because you don't observe the works doesn't mean that the person isn't saved.
"The Lord knows them that are His," the Bible says.
And guess what! He doesn't go by the standards of the COC.

You put your own definitions to words that the Bible has not so defined. We are saved by faith. Never mind redefining them according to COC theology. Just stick with simple Biblical defintions, and if you need a dictionary for help then so be it.
What is faith? Faith is confidence, or trust in the word of another: biblically in the Word or promises of God.
It is demonstrated and described very well by Paul using Abraham as an example:

Romans 4:20-21 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
--Verse 19 says that Abraham was not weak in faith.
Verse 20 says that Abraham was strong in faith.
Verse 21 defines his faith--fully persuaded that what God had promise he was able also to perform.
That is faith--confidence in the promises of God.

In reference to salvation, I put my faith, (trust) in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ that he will (as he promised he would) grant unto me eternal life and forgive me of all my sins. I am fully confident that he will. And the moment that I did put my faith in him, I was fully confident that he had forgiven me my sin, and granted me eternal life.
The Scripture says:

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

So, try not to make such a big deal about dissecting the word "faith" when the Bible doesn't. It is a simple word, with a simple definition.

In order for this to be true, I would have to assume that you have no wife, sons, or any other family or friends that could possibly accompany you to your house. Is this the case? Do you not have any other family or friends?

(I'm sorry if it is the case. I know that sometimes tragic events can leave a man bereft of family and friends, and would not stoop so low as to open "old wounds".)

What I'm getting at is that I would have to investigate to see if there were anyone else that might come home with you besides your daughter. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, you try needlesly to complicate a simple illustration. I avoided other details just to keep the illustration simple (guessing that you would jump at the chance to bring in all the red herrings you could). It was a simple illustration. Why couldn't you keep it that way? We were examing the way English grammar works, not the details of an extended family. In other words, it is a statment I might of said to my wife which would have made perfect sense to her.

This is where your mistake is.
Baptism all throughout the passage is purely symbolic. It doesn't save anyone. The answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection by Jesus Christ saves. That is what the passage says, not baptism. Baptism is purely symbolic. "The like figure unto..." It tells us it is symbolic. It tells us that it is a good conscience toward God by the resurection of Jesus Christ that brings salvation. Why are you making it something different.

It is parallel to verse 20:
Water destroyed. Baptismal waters are symbolical of destruction--leaving the old world behind, as Noah left the old world behind.
Noah was saved by being in the Ark (Christ)
We are saved by being in Christ (our Ark),
Noah was safe in the Ark, and disembarked on dry land picturing the resurrection.
Baptism pictures the resurrection, or it pictures our resurrection as we come out of that polluted world of sin, and live in newness of life with the resurrected Jesus Christ.
Baptism doesn't save. It is a picture of what Christ has done in our lives. To say that baptism saves is to contradict all of Scripture, and to contradict the very picture that Peter is painting here.
DHK

 

DHK,

bmerr here.

I can go along with this. One question: How does the Bible say that we get "into Christ"?

In Christ,

bmerr

 

John 15:1-7 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Romans 10:13-17 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

We are born again, "get into Christ," as you say, by calling on the name of the Lord. It is through His Word. His Word is the agency by which one is born again, or saved. The gospel is the Word of God, which is preached, and believed, and received by faith.
DHK

 

P-Nut,

bmerr here. Please understand that I'm not trying to be a wise guy, but your post flips and flops back and forth so much in so short a time, that I've got to break it down.

Okay. Faith apart from works, then, does not save. Am I understanding you correctly?

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you mean works of obedience, as opposed to works of the Law, or works of merit. Would it be acceptable to restate this as "Obedient faith is genuine?"

So now the obedient faith, (if I may use that term), which is genuine, is brought forth by the faith that saves, though that faith is separated from any work.

If I wasn't confused already, this is where you lose me. At the beginning of your post, you said that, "Faith without works is a mere intellectual acceptance of certain truths...", thus describing what you term "Intellectual faith", which you said was dead, and cannot save.

Then you said that faith with works was genuine, but that genuine faith (with works) came from the faith that saves, which aparently has no works, which causes it to fall into the category of "intellectual faith", that you said was dead and cannot save.

Am I misunderstanding your post? Please tell me I am. You seem to differentiate between a faith with works, which is genuine, and a faith without works, which you called intellectual faith which cannot save.

Basically you've boiled it down to two types of faith: one with works ("genuine")
one without works ("intellectual")

All the while maintaining the position of salvation by "faith only", or faith without works. Do you not see that saving faith must be one type or the other? It either must be dead faith (without works), or living, perfected faith (with works). There is no "Door # 3" for it to be in.

[Reminder: When I speak of "works", I mean obedience, not works of the law, or works of merit. Nobody's earning anything.]

So, like I said earlier, your position seems to be salvation by dead faith ("intellectual" - without works) producing genuine faith (with works).

I'm getting frustrated just trying to make sense of your belief! How do you keep a straight while trying to defend such a doctrine? It makes no sense at all, not to mention the fact that it simply is not what the Bible teaches.

My faith is one that manifests itself in obedience to the commands of God which pertain to me under the New Testament of Jesus Christ.

If you want to try to clarify your position, please do.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

DHK,

bmerr here. You can't bring yourself to say it, can you? The phrase "into Christ" is found in the NT, and I'm pretty sure you know where, but you can't say what the Bible says without saying what mman, Frank, and I have been saying, so you dance around, trying to find another way to get "into Christ".

People are either "in Christ", or they're not. Inside or outside. The Bible tells those on the outside how to get on the inside, but it seems as though you can't bring yourself to say what it says. Is this the case, or do you really not know?

In Christ,

bmerr

 

Do not the words of Christ Himself apply? Or do you just rely on Paul
What does "in me" mean?
It means "in Christ" since Christ said it. He repeats it many times throughout this same passage. Read it carefully. "He that abides in me," You must abide, or remain in Christ. How do you get "into Christ?" Read the chapter and find out? It has nothing to do with baptism. I quoted all those verses for your sake. They tell you how to get into Christ. Why don't you believe the Bible?
DHK

 

Charles,

bmerr here.

So far, so good. Salvation is certainly a gift that we do not earn. I do not believe that fact neccessarily rules out the possibility of conditions that must be met in order to receive the gift.

An illustration might go like this: A young man (Bob) learns that his rich old uncle (Chip) has died and left 2 million dollars to him in his will. However, in order for Bob to receive his inheritance, he must not be a drug user (illegally, of course). It so happens that Bob is a clean-living young man, and does not use illegal drugs. He presents himself to the executor of Chip's will, and shows the negative results of a recent urinalysis. Having met the aforementioned condition, Bob recieves a check for 2 million dollars from uncle Chip's estate.

Now I ask you: did Bob earn 2 million dollars by not using drugs? Obviously not. Did Bob meet the required condition to recieve 2 million dollars? Yes, he did.

Likewise, when one meets the conditions of faith, repentance, confession, and baptism, he does not earn anything, he merely meets the conditions that God has set for man to become the children of God.

It's not the deeds of the Mosaic Law, it's not works of merit. It's simply faith manifesting itself in obedience.

I will admit up front that I don't have the issue of the Spirit's indwelling (literal or figurative) all worked out yet. I've seen pretty convincing arguments for both positions. However, the method of the Spirit's work (direct, or indirect) is pretty clear to me.

I guess what I'm getting at is your statement, "I think we would also all agree that the indwelling of the Spirit changes a person". If you mean that one's behavior will change as he brings himself into line with the Bible, then, yes, I could agree with that.

If you mean that the Holy Spirit mysteriously changes a person directly, then I could not agree.

Is faithfulness not required, then? It seems as if one minute you're saying "saving faith produces good works", and now you say that salvation actually may not manifest itself in good works. So did the guy with no works ever really get saved? Can one be sure of his salvation if he has no works to act as evidence of his faith? It's like you're chasing your tail or something.

I beg to differ, sir. There are contradictions everywhere you turn. Salvation produces good works, but it might not. We're saved by faith without works (which the Bible says is dead), but one without works, might not have really been saved, after all.

On the whole, it's vastly different from the Bible.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

John 15 does not tell us HOW one gets into Christ?
How is one clean throught the word? To state a thing to be so does not tell us HOW? One is saved by grace through faith. WHEN is one saved by grace through faith? again, to state a thing as fact does not always reveal the how or when. I agree we are saved by grace through faith. The new testament of Christ is a system of justification by faith. However, WHEN is one justified by grace through faith. See Gal. 3:26,27. There is only one way into Christ. The one way is WHEN one is baptized into Christ

 

bmerr,

We're saved by faith without works (which the Bible says is dead), but one without works, might not have really been saved, after all.[B/]

What do you think Paul means when he says that we are saved by faith and not works less any man should boast?

I'll tell you. He means that the salvation comes from the fact that God is gracious enough to give it to us, though we do not deserve it. He wants to show that while the trye believer will manifest works, the works have nothing to do with meriting salvation. You are saved because you acquiesced to Christ, not because you fulfilled requirements. And seriously bmerr, how do you get past that verse anyway?

Your "uncle Chip" story is elucidating. If salvation is analagous to the inheritance in that story then you see salvation as something we get if we meet certain stipulations. That's a very consistent old testament theology (which makes sense since the COC is a very old testament-like church). Keep the law and you get the reward. Simple enough.

But Jesus and Paul describe something different. God wants to indwell us (Jn 14:23). We don't have a list of stipulations regarding our receipt of salvation - all we have to do is ask. In truth uncle Chip didn't make any demands about what his nephew must do to get the inheritance - he just had to ask for it!

If baptism and going to worship in a buidling that says COC could save someone then why did Jesus have to come ?

 

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
--The washing of regeneration referring again to the washing of the Word of God in John 15:3, and the renewing of the Holy Spirit are the two means which God uses in bringing a person to salvation. Baptism gets a person wet. It is a work, as this verse indicates, a work of righteousness to be sure, which means doing the right thing--the right thing after salvation; but it does not save. Not by works of righteousness which we have done are we saved--but according to his mercy. Salvation is all of the grace of God. It is a gift. There is no possible way that the work of baptism could ever be involved.

If you truly agree with this statement then baptism is automatically out of the question. Baptism is a work. If salvation is by grace through faith, then it is impossible for the work of baptism to be involved. Consider:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

You believe that baptism is a part of salvation. The Bible says that salvation is by grace through faith.
Both cannot be true because baptism is a work. If works are involved then grace is no more grace. It is only grace when there are absolutely no works involved. Therefore you practice a works-based religion which is not the faith of the Bible, but a man-made religion.

The only way into Christ is by faith in Christ.
Philip came to Christ. What did Philip say? Show us the way, and it will satisfy us. Jesus answered and said unto him:
"I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes unto the Father but by me."
Jesus did not say to Philip: Go and be baptized, that is the way.
Jesus never preached baptism. His message was always centered around Himself. Seven times in the Book of John he said "I am..." His ministry centered around himself. Why? Because He is the only way. Salvation is centered around Christ. The only way into Christ is through faith in his shed blood. Baptism has no part in salvation.
DHK

 

ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding!!!
There's your "resurrection", following the "death" of the old man that occurs when we are "baptized by the Spirit into the Body" (converted through faith), which the water ceremony symbolizes.
In your system, a spiritually dead person just starts doing certain things, and is then passed from death to life. That is not how it works.

Also, don't forget, that in that story, the person started out "clean", and had nothing to do but show up in that state. So of course, he didn't "earn" anything! But in real life, it is not like that. We would all be addicted drug users. What we need is pardon and to be changed, not simply commanded to stop/change (in our own power), and then rewarded accordingly (which would be "earning", and in which case none of us would make it). Such an illustration betrays the COC's Pelagianism: man is basically good, but simply deceived by false churches!

 

Charles,

bmerr here. I'm fine with Eph 2:8,9. I try not to "get past" any passage of Scripture without bringing myself in line with it. I do, on the other hand, question the popular interpretation of it, as it tends to lead to many other Scriptures being avoided, or having their plain meaning explained away.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

What I want to do is define some of the terms Paul uses in this text, so we know exactly what he was saying.

First off, what's "grace"? I started another thread with this question, but there hasn't been much input so far. The only descriptive passage I'm familiar with is Titus 2:11, 12, which reads,

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Here grace is described as what teaches men how to live. A common description of grace is "unmerited favor". Certainly Divine instruction would fall into that category, but since the teaching aspect is what the Bible says about grace, perhaps we should apply that meaning to Eph 2:8 as well.

Secondly, I want to understand what Paul meant by "faith". The "hall of faith" in Heb 11 gives several examples of Biblical faith, the kind of faith that is pleasing to God. More often than not, those listed in Heb 11 are said to have done something by faith. Abel offered, Noah prepared, etc.

Since we know that faith comes from hearing God's word (Rom 10:17), we know that the things they did were done because God had told them what to do. Based on this, I would understand Paul to mean a faith that obeys God's instructions.

Third, I would want to know what Paul was referring to by "works". Much of Paul's efforts were centered on combatting the teachings of the Judaizers. These false teachers were trying to bring Gentiles under the bondage of the Mosaic Law by saying things like, "Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved" (Acts 15:1).

Much of the book of Romans emphasizes the fact that "...by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight..." (Rom 3:20). There was a lot of conflict between Christians of Jewish heritage and those converted from the Gentiles in the early church. The epistles to the different churches spend alot of time trying to straighten these conflicts out.

Additionally, there are seemingly contradictory statements from James and Peter (James 2:17-26; Acts 2:35), which plainly state that man must do some work to be justified or be accepted of God.

Of course, we all have confidence in the fact that the Bible does not contradict itself, and that things that look like contradictions are simply evidence of our incomplete, or erroneous understanding.

It has been my conclusion that Paul is referring to works of the Law, and good works for the purpose of earning God's favor (meritorious works). There are good works done by the unrighteous for the sole purpose of soothing their guilty conscience. If you will, an effort to score "brownie points" with God. These are of no avail. Likewise, the Jews' attempt to be righteous by keeping the Mosaic Law was also fruitless.

But Peter and James both say that man must work to be justified. Obedience seems to be the only option that allows all three to say what they said, and not be in conflict with one another.

So "not of works", meaning Mosaic Law keeping, or doing good works to merit God's favor, while leaving room for obedience.

Lastly, "gift". Salvation is only available to man because God, in the Person of Jesus, gave of Himself to make it possible. It would be totally out of reach for man had God not given His only begotten Son. For Him to require man to meet some conditions in order to avail himself of the gift of salvation does nothing to take away from it being a gift. Even faith is a condition, otherwise all men would be saved.

Sorry this has been so long, but to sum it up, my take on Eph 2:8, 9 might go like this:

For by God's instruction are ye saved through faithful obedience; not some plan of your own; it is only possible for you by God's gift of Jesus: Not by keeping the Law, or doing enough good works, lest any man should claim to have earned it.

Though some will likely be quick to blow this off as some "COC brainwashing" or something, I would ask you to give careful consideration to this. If I'm off, it won't be the first time.

In Christ,

bmerr