believe, belief, faith, believe "in"

Romans 4:8-13 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Circucision was never a sign of belief. To compare the Old Covenant to the New Covenant is ridiculous. Baptism never took the place of circumcision. You don't find that parallel in the Bible. Circumcision was not a sign of belief as a baby could not believe when he was circumcised. Baptism is not a sign of belief as a baby (infant baptism) cannot believe when he is baptized. Both are ridiculous pictures.
"Believe and be baptized." Belief or faith is an essential to salvation. It was in the Old Testament. It is in the New Testament. The above Scripture demonstrates it to be so. Both circumcision and baptism had and have nothing to do with salvation.
DHK

 

DHK, if I told you that I was considering baptism (immersion, in water) and asked for your advice, would you tell me to do it or not?

Would you say, "Yes, God wants you to be baptized." or would you say, "Do it if you want to, it doesn't really make any difference?"

I ask because you seem to be adamantly, even rabidly, opposed to baptism, holding it in very low esteem. (Your comparison of baptism to taking out the garbage.)

 

I like this, pastors in most of your congregations dominate and rule the congregation, not letting the elders guide the church.

 

Ummmmmm I think that the Bible says salvation doesnt ONLY come from "believing". Just because it DOES say that we must believe, that in no way implies that is the ONLY thing we must do.


Rom. 6:
1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?


Rom. 6:
12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.


Rom:6:
22: But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.


The end of sin is NOT everlasting life. it is DEATH.


Rom. 6:
14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


If you read that a police car is WHITE... and in another place you read that a police car is BLACK... would you concentrate on the place that said it is white? and would you keep pointing to that one statement INSISTING that this book SAYS it is white? of course not.

That is just silly. Jms:2:14: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

You can claim you "believe" on Jesus all you want to, but if this faith isnt genuine, leading to a change of life then your belief is worthless.

Ti:3:8: This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works . These things are good and profitable unto men.

Ti:1:16: They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

You claim to "believe" in Jesus... do you believe this? 2Cor:9:8: And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work

Do you BELIEVE all His promises? and if you DO then wouldnt you demonstrate that belief by how you act?

Phil:4:13: I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

do you believe THAT??

1Jn:4:4: Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jn:5:4: For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1Jn:5:5: Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

do you believe THAT??

Romans 8:
6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10: And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

do you believe God can put His Spirit in you and enable you to overcome the flesh? do you believe God can change your mind to stop being carnally minded and at enmity with the law of God?

Or do you merely believe Jesus died for you?


Jn:14:12: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also


Claudia

 

Sorry, I don't think I understood the import of your question.
First, I have no idea what a "Cabool Christian" is so I don't know where you are coming from, that is, what your theological beliefs are. That puts me at a disadvantage, in answering your question.

However, the most important thing to remeber is that baptism has absoultely nothing to do with salvation. It is important. I never said it wasn't. It is just not important to salvation.

It is important because Jesus commanded it in the Great Commission:
Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Baptism is the first step of obedienc after a person is saved. It is not part of salvation. It is done in obedience to the command of Christ symbolizing what Christ has already accomplished in the life of the believer.

The very word baptism means immersion. Baptism is always done by immersion. In fact if baptism wasn't by immersion the picture of baptism would be destroyed, for it symbolizes a burial to the old life, and a rising again to a new life in Christ. Pouring or sprinklin cannot symbolize a burial.
Baptism is important as a step of obedience in the Christian life. It is heresy when considered as part of salvation.
DHK

 

It's a very simple question.
If I told you that I was considering being baptized, what advice would you give me?

The name of the church that I attend is Cabool Christian Church. Understanding the name of my church doesn't tell you anything about my theological beliefs, but why would you need to know anything about my beliefs to answer my question?

DISCLAIMER:If you can only answer one of my questions, please disregard this one in favor of the one at the top of the page.

Is obedience of all kinds 'heresy when considered as part of salvation,' or just baptism?

 

How can I answer that question without knowing what you believe. That is why I asked more about your church.

Your right the name doesn't tell me anythng. in our society today, about 90% of Americans consider themselves Christians, but the truth is that only about 10% actually are. So you claim to come from a Christian Church? Is it J.W., Mormon, Catholic, Church of Chrust, Children of God, Zorastrian, SDA, Armstrongism, etc. Just what is it that you believe? How can I accurately answer your question without knowing what you believe.
I did my best in the above post that I gave to you. My answer was as clear as possible. If there was something there that you did not understand please free to question me about it.

The one at the top of the page is: "What advice would you give me (concerning baptism)? Impossible to answer unless you give me more information about yourself and the denomination that you belong to, or the beliefs that you hold to.

Yes, obedience to all kinds would be heresy in the respect that any "work" that would add to the "work" of Christ would take away from the sufficiency of Christ to atone for our sins. Was not his blood sufficient enough to wash away our sins? The Bible ssys it was. (1John 1:7) "The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin," not baptism or any other work.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

There is absolutely no work (of obedience or otherwise) that can save you.
One is saved through faith and faith alone in the shed blood of Jesus Christ. As it says in the Scripture above: "For by grace are you saved through faith." Not baptism nor any other work; simply by grace through faith, and nothing more.
DHK

 

Your misunderstanding of my question goes deeper than I thought. I am not actually seeking advice from you about baptism. I am trying to find out what you would teach to someone who is commonly called a "seeker". This person probably has NO religious background. He is learning. He hasn't read the Bible, or at least not much of it. He has heard some of the basics of Christian belief, but doesn't have it all sorted out yet. He hears you are a Baptist, so, naturally enough to him, he asks you about baptism. Do you tell him that this is something God wants us to do, or do you tell him not to worry about it?

So, in your understanding of salvation, is one required to repent of their sins?

Yes, just as you claim to come from a Baptist Church.

None of the above. I am a follower of my Lord Jesus Christ. He is my Lord, my Master, my Savior, my Creator, my Friend.

What do I believe? I could not possibly tell you everything I believe, but I will tell you a few things. If there are any specifics, ask away.

First and foremost I believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
I believe that God manifests Himself as Father, Son, and Spirit in a way that I do not fully comprehend, but nevertheless accept.
I believe that God created all things.
I believe that Jesus came to earth in the form of a human male, fully God and fully man.
I believe that God loves us.
I believe that Jesus' death was the perfect sacrifice, paying the penalty for the sin of all mankind, and that His death was God's plan from the beginning.
I believe that there is one body and one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
I believe that Jesus lived a sinless life.
I believe that He was betrayed, crucified, buried, returned to life after 3 days, and then to heaven.
I believe that all who belong to Jesus will be resurrected to eternal life.
I believe that it is by grace that we are saved through faith, not of our selves, it is a gift of God, not as a result of works. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand.
I believe that faith without works is dead.
I believe that the love of God far exceeds our wildest imaginations.
I believe . . . many things!

 

Thanks for the info. Now I understand your question better. Every person must understand salvation first. Baptism is completely meaningless for an unsaved person. One can be baptized a multitude of times, but if they are not saved it doesn't matter any way. It also has no effect on salvation. That is, it is not part of salvation, and cannot forgive one's sins.

So the most important thing for your friend is to make sure that he is saved. Forget about being baptized. Is he saved? Is he born again of the Spirit of God. Does he know for sure that his sins are forgiven, and that he is on his way to heaven?
If not then you have to teach him the way of salvation:

1. That he is a sinner--
For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Rom.3:23, 9-12)>

2. That the consequence of sin is eternal death, or separation from God eternally in a place called Hell. (Rom.6:23; Heb.9:27; Rev.20:11-15)

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
--If you work, you work for a wage, that is a set amount of money that you deserve at the end of each month. You work for it; you deserve it. It is your wage. And so the Bible says we deserve or earn, eternal death, because of our sin. We have sinned. The consequence of that sin is eternal death, or separation from God for all eternity. Eternal life is contrasted with death or eternal death. Thus death here is not just physical death.

There is a penalty for my sin. It is eternal death. But it is a penalty I cannot pay. And it is a punishment that I don't want.

But there is good news:
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
The Old English word "commendeth" simply means demonstrated. God demonstrated his life toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. What grace! What love! Read John 3:16. There is no one in this world that God loves any more than you (or your friend). He loved you enough to die for you, to shed his blood for the penalty of your sins, a penalty that you could never pay. But he could pay it, because he as perfect man could die: the sinless for the sinners. He being God could die for the sins of all generations. He was wholly man and wholly God at the same time. He died for your sins. He was victorious over sin and death by his resurrection.

What does God require:
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
--Simply to believe on what Christ has done. Pray and take him as your Saviour (your friend). Believe and you shalt be saved.

After salvation find a good Bible-believing church (like IFB), and get baptized (immersed), because of the commandment of Christ. Usually baptism is a requirement for church membership in most denominations. But it is a picture of the believer's death to his old life of sin, and his new life with Christ.
Forget about baptism until you or your friend know for sure that you are saved. Then get baptized.
DHK

 

I asked:

You danced all around the question, but I guess your last sentence is your answer.

You never did answer this one:

Again, it's a simple question. Yes or no will do.

 

Well that's a new definition if I've ever heard one! Belief is mental assent. It is to accept as true. Not everyone who believes repents. Remember, even the demons believe. Do they repent?

Repentance is turning away from sin. It can be a logical consequence of belief, but is not the same thing.

Let's consider the example of Abraham, which Paul discusses in Romans 4. "For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”"

Now, according to your definition, Abraham's belief included repentance. But just what was it that he believed? Verse 18 tells us: "In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.""

God told Abraham that he would become the father of many nations, and Abraham believed Him. This belief was credited to him as righteousness. Repentance was in no way involved in Abraham's belief.

Now you might say that that was Old Testament, and therefore doesn't have any bearing at all on our belief today, but if we finish the chapter we see that it does.

"No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification."

So belief does not include repentance, yet repentance is required for salvation.

You said:

and

How do you reconcile these two disparate statements?

 

Belief just doesnt' mean a mental assent. That is a common misconception. Let me give you some examples.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
--Demons believe in Christ and all that he has done. But they will not enter into heaven. There is a difference between saving faith and intellectual faith or even mental assent. That is why it says in Rom. 10:9:
If thou shalt believe in thy heart..."

Believing in your heart is more than just mental assent. I believe in Nero, Shakespeare, Churchill, the Queen of England, and many other historical figures. I give mental assent to their existence, and the things that they accomplished in history. But mental assent cannot save. Only Christ can save. And belief in him must be a saving belief, that is a belief that is from the heart.

No, it is not technically the same thing. You have defined it correctly. It is a turning from sin, and a turning toward God. We repent from sin; but we also repent toward God. But this takes place at the time of salvation, concurrent with the time of belief. At the time that I believe, I also repent. It is expressed in what some would call the "sinners prayer," or some prayer that exprsses the same type of thought. I repent as I express my belief in Christ as my Saviour.

Does the Bible have to tell the entire store explicitly every time? No. Inherent in Abraham's belief was repentance. What had he repented from. He had repented from the worship of his fathers idolatrous gods which were on the other side of the river. This is the way that Joshua put it:

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Abraham came from an idolatrous land. When God revealed himself to him, he believed him and left the idolarous gods immediately. He left the Ur of the Chaldees. Inherent in his belief was repentance, as evidenced by his action to leave an idolatrous land immediately.

This passage does not deal with salvation, or repentance. It deals with Abraham's daily walk with God. He walked by faith. He was strong in faith. It gives us a definition of faith here: strong in faith "being fully persuaded that what God had promised he was full able to perform." That is faith. And Abraham exercised that faith everyday, as he put his trust daily in the promises of God.

Let's not confuse the issue. Saving faith, that brings one to salvation must include repentance. But the Lord requires all of his children (once they have been saved) to walk a life of faith. That is a different matter. He also requires confesson of sin on a daily basis in order to remain in communion with him, in fellowship with him. Confession of sin includes repentance from sin. It is only connected in this way in that it is fairly difficult to walk a life of faith with unconfessed sin in your life:
Consider:
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Consider also:
Psalms 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:
--Sin in my life will keep me from God. He won't even hear my prayers as long as their is unconfessed sin in my life.

You said:

and

How do you reconcile these two disparate statements? [/qb][/QUOTE]Repentance is absolutely necessary for salvation. Without it you cannot be saved. Repentance is included in saving faith. When I believe on the sacrificial work of Christ, then at the same time I am repenting of my old life of sin and accepting a new life in Christ. It is a change of mind. A change of attitude with respect to God. I no longer wil be rebellious to God, living for the devil and self, but rather will be obedient to God, and live according to his dictates.

Living a life of faith, walking by faith is separate from repentance. We are now talking of the Christian life. There is a difference.
DHK

 

Ah, now here is a statement on which we agree! (I prefer focusing on agreements whenever possible.)

It appears that when you were talking about 'belief' you were using it interchangeably with 'faith'. I do not believe that these terms are synonymous. Faith is a step beyond belief, it is belief put into action. An illustration may help:

A crowd is gathered to watch a tightrope walker cross a deep canyon. It is a little windy, so not everyone believes that he can do it. Some say confidently that of course he can, he does such things all the time. As the crowd watches, the performer steps onto the cable on the far side of the canyon from them, pushing a wheelbarrow. He crosses with hardly a bobble, and the crowd cheers wildly. "Who believes I can do it again?" he asks. Everyone raises their hand, yelling, "I do!" Then he asks, "Who will get into the wheelbarrow?"

Faith is getting in the wheelbarrow.

This is why James tells us that faith without works is dead. True faith is belief put into action. This is why Abraham is Paul's prime example of faith. He didn't just say he believed, he obeyed. That is faith.

Obedience is essential to salvation, because faith requires it. Refusing to obey demonstrates a lack of faith.

Absolutely! We are told to repent, so when we do, that is obedience. Without such obedience one cannot be saved.

Well, yes. 'Saving faith' as you put it is only the first step in the Christian life. There is a whole journey following. But we cannot make the journey without the first step, can we?

 

One certainly does! Your profile tells me that you are 65 years old and live in WA. I believe what you say because you have given me no reason to doubt you (so far) and logic tells me that little or nothing could be gained by you lying about such things. Besides that, I am generally a trusting person.

However, if you included in your profile that you were part of the crew of the last shuttle mission, I would not believe you. Some probably would, but I would not. At that point I would also begin to doubt the other information you have given.

I choose to believe that people tell me the truth unless there are circumstances that cause me to doubt them. Assuredly, this is partly due to my personal life circumstances and history, but at a point in my past I chose to act this way towards people.

Because the choice was mine, I bear responsibility for the consequences of that choice.

 

Ah, now here is a statement on which we agree! (I prefer focusing on agreements whenever possible.)

It appears that when you were talking about 'belief' you were using it interchangeably with 'faith'. I do not believe that these terms are synonymous. Faith is a step beyond belief, it is belief put into action. An illustration may help:

A crowd is gathered to watch a tightrope walker cross a deep canyon. It is a little windy, so not everyone believes that he can do it. Some say confidently that of course he can, he does such things all the time. As the crowd watches, the performer steps onto the cable on the far side of the canyon from them, pushing a wheelbarrow. He crosses with hardly a bobble, and the crowd cheers wildly. "Who believes I can do it again?" he asks. Everyone raises their hand, yelling, "I do!" Then he asks, "Who will get into the wheelbarrow?"

Faith is getting in the wheelbarrow.

This is why James tells us that faith without works is dead. True faith is belief put into action. This is why Abraham is Paul's prime example of faith. He didn't just say he believed, he obeyed. That is faith.

Obedience is essential to salvation, because faith requires it. Refusing to obey demonstrates a lack of faith.</font>[/QUOTE]Your illustration is only partly correct. To believe and to have faith are the same thing. The Bible does say that Abraham was justified by faith (and faith alone) without works.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
--Abraham was justified by faith, even before he did any of his works. It clearly says "He believed God." That was the reason he was justified. Read the context of the Scripture Romans 4:1-5.

Obedience is not essential to salvation in the way that you speak of. Only faith. Simply believe and thou shalt be saved. (Acts 16:31) The Bible is very clear on this fact. Obedience is a result of salvation, not a requirement thereof.

The first step is baptism. Repentance is a change of mind with respect to one's attitude toward God. It therefore cannot rightly be called a work. It is also part of believing. You can't believe without repenting. What are you believing if you are not repenting? That doesn't make a lot of sense, unless of course you don't understand the Biblical concept of repentance??
DHK

 

DHK,

bmerr here. Fair enough. Let's take another look at what's going on. Why did these men drag Paul and Silas before the magistrates? Why were they angry with Paul and Silas?

16:19 "And when her masters saw that the hopoe of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,"

These men didn't give a hoot about what Paul and Silas may have been preaching. They were angry because they could no longer exploit the woman with the spirit of divination. Paul and Silas had negatively affected their cash flow. The charges were false, as was the case when the Judaizers brought charges against Paul (Acts 21:28-30, and others).

It can't be proven if PJ had heard the gospel before Paul and Silas were put in his charge or if he hadn't. However, it seems logical to say that if he had heard the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, then he would have had no need to ask what to do to be saved.

The text tells us that "...Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them" (16:25)

It seems significant that the Holy Spirit saw fit to record just who heard the praying and singing of Paul and Silas.

Something else you seem to have missed is what PJ saw upon bveing wakened from sleep. The text says he saw that "...the prison doors open..."

Now, let's look back at the events that took place, and see if it can be determined just what PJ heard from Paul and Silas.

- It's about midnight

- Paul and Silas sing and pray

- The prisoners hear them

- A great earthquake shakes the foundations of the prison

- The prison doors are opened, everyone's bands are loosed

- PJ awakes out of his sleep

- PJ sees the prison doors are open

It's quite plain that Paul and Silas' praying and singing took place while PJ was asleep. He heard none of it.

I'd be interested in your source of this information.

He just might have, but as I said earlier, it can't be proven from the text.

No, it is not "evident" that PJ had heard the gospel, least of all while he was sleeping. Again, I submit to you that if he had heard the gospel message, he would have known what to do to be saved.

Just as the Samaritans knew what to do when Phillip :...preached Christ unto them..." (Acts 8:5, 12).

Just as the eunuch knew what to do when Phillip "...preached unto him Jesus..." (Acts 8:35-39).

Your argument is spurious. Your reasoning is unreasonable. Your position is false.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

Contrary. They did "give a hoot" about what Paul and Silas was preaching. The very message of Paul and Silas took away their "gains." They certainly understood the message, as they followed her and Paul around day by day, and gradually watched their income dwindle away.

The probability is high that he heard the gospel. Few people get saved the first time they hear the gospel, very few people. I have known people to sit through every Sunday service of an gospel preaching church for more than a year before getting saved. I know of a young woman who went to a Bible College for four years, and after four years of studying the Word of God, she got saved on her graduation day. The fact is, that not until the Holy Spirit works in person's heart convicting them of sin will a person trust Christ. Some get saved the first time they hear; some after they have heard over a thousand times. It must be a work of God; a work of the Holy Spirit.
When we have an invitation at the end of a service sometimes a person may come forward and request the same request as the Philippian jailor: "How may I be saved," though he has heard the gospel many times before. Someone will then take him aside and show him the gospel as Philip did with the Ethiopian Eunuch. The Holy Spirit must be working in the individual to bring salvation.

It doesn't say he heard none of it. It doesn't say how long Paul and Silas had been singing. It doesn't say how long the Philippian jailor had been sleeping. One can't assume that the jailor had been sleeping all the time that Paul and Silas had been singing and praying. You are making too many assumptions.
DHK