believe, belief, faith, believe "in"

The reality in your illustration is that Jimmy didn't trust his father, and that is why he didn't jump into his arms. It has nothing to do with baptism. It would have nothing to do (had Jimmy jumped) with his obedience or disobedience to further commands. The disobedience to the act of baptism has nothing to do with the trust one puts in his father. Your illustration fails miserably.
DHK

 

bmerr, in your profile you state: "Jesus built only one church" please tell me what church is the only one recognized by Jesus.

 

Conditions needed to gain salvation in the Church of Christ:


Though God's part is the big part, man's part is also necessary if man is to reach heaven. Man must comply with the conditions of pardon which the Lord has announced. Man's part can clearly set forth in the following steps:

Hear the Gospel. "How shall they call on him whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Romans 10:14).

Believe. "And without faith it is impossible to be well pleasing unto him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek after him" (Hebrews 11:6).

Repent of past sins. "The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked; but now he commandeth men that they should all everywhere repent" (Acts 17:30).

Confess Jesus as Lord. "Behold here is water; What doth hinder me to be baptized ? And Philip said, if thou believeth with all thy heart thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" (Acts 8:36-37).

Be baptized for the remission of sins. "And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).

Live a Christian life. "Ye are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light" (1 Peter 2:9).


http://church-of-christ.org/who.html#howto

 

bmerr

The reason why you don't understand faith is because you are still striving to obtain it. Someone told you faith would be given when performing the ritual of water baptism, and you believed. You are being deceived


I just noticed there are 6 conditions, 6 is man's number.

 

Take out the book of Acts? Is that really your approach to scripture? Take out what you don't like?

Acts is filled with examples of conversion. You want to ignore the book with all the examples and instructions given to individuals being converted. What better book to learn about conversions than the book that records all the conversions under the New Covenant. Where else are there any other actual examples of conversion?

The epistles were written to Christians. They were not written to alien sinners telling them how to become a chirstian. That is not the purpose of the epistles. The epistles give instructions on how to live the Christian life.

Thankfully, there is information concerning conversion in the epistles.

Romans, a wonderful book. Yes, various aspects of becoming a Christian are covered, including baptism. Romans 6 is the most informative book on what takes place during our baptism.

Ro 6:2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!
16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

The epistles inform us that we are baptized into Christ. You can find no other way into Christ. (Rom 6:3-4, Gal 3:27)


In Him (Christ) is where we have redemption (Eph 1:7, Rom 3:24). In Christ is where every spiritual blessing is (Eph 1:3). There is no condemnation in Christ (Rom 8:1), we are a new Creature in Christ (II Cor 5:17), God's childern are in Christ (Gal 3:26) and salvation is in Christ (II Tim 2:10).

If all these good things are in Christ, how do we get INTO Christ, according to the epsitles? (Rom 6:3-4, Gal 3:27).

The gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus (I Cor 15:1-4). How do we obey the death, burial and resurrection (gospel)? Rom 6:3-4 says we do that in baptism.

In general, Acts is where we need to go to learn about conversions and the epistles are where we need to go to learn how to live the christian life.

 

This is exactly what the Oneness Pentecostals said when they wanted to prove that tongues was essential to salvation; just as you want to prove that baptism is essential to salvation. But your premise is wrong. Doctrine does not come essentially or primarily from a book of history. It comes from a book of doctrine. The book of Romans was just that. It was a doctrinal book explaining in detail the doctrine of salvation to the Romans.
Examples of individuals getting saved hardly give you the theology of how to be saved. There is a difference.

There is no possible way that you can use Romans chapter 6 to justify baptism as a part of salvation. It says the opposite. It is a picture of salvation, purely symbolic.

Romans 6:3-4 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

At the time of one's baptism there is a picture. We are baptized into his death. Christ died. As Christ died, our old life of sin was put to death at the time of our conversion.
Christ was raised from the dead. As Christ was raised from the dead, so we are also raised from that water that we should walk in newness of life. That is what it says in verse 4. "We should walk in newness of life." That is what baptism, believer's baptism, symbolizes. It does nothing for you except get you wet. It cannot save. It cannot remit your sin. It is step of obedience in the Christian's life, and that is all. Nowhere does it say that baptism saves, or washes away sin. That is a pagan superstition.
DHK

 

mman

Would you please provide a link to your denomination or church if you have one, I'd like to check your doctrinal statement. Thank you.

 

"mman" and "bmerr"

Are you two associated in any way with each other?

 

I'm not exactly sure what you are talking about? There is not a doctrinal statement other than the Bible. Each congregation of the Lord's Church is autonomous, ruled by elders as set forth in scripture. I have never met bmerr nor talked with him directly. We are simply two individuals who have studied the same scriptures and come to the same conclusions.

 

DHK,

bmerr here. God's plan of salvation from the book of Romans? No problem. Let me say up front that I don't have my Bible with me at the moment. Circumstances this morning resulted in my leaving it at home, so Scripture quotes and references may need some correction.

In God's plan of salvation, there are six parts from beginning to end. All of these can be found in the book of Romans, which has been suggested by DHK.

1. Hear - "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Rom 10:17

2. Believe - "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Rom 10:9

3. Repent - "Know ye not that it is the goodness of God that leadeth thee to repentance?" Rom 4:2? (or there abouts)

4. Confess - (with Rom 10:9 above) "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" Rom 10:10

5. Baptism - "Know ye not that so many of you as were baptized into Christ were baptized into his death?" Rom 6:3

"If we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall also be in the likeness of his resurrection." Rom 6:5

6. Live faithfully - know ye not that his servants ye are, to whosoever ye yield yourselves servants to obey? (Rom 6:16? has words to this effect. Sorry the quote is not exact.)

"What? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid." Rom 6:1

Like I said, some correction may be required for the quotes and references, but there's God's plan of salvation from the book of Romans.

The book of Acts is, indeed a book of history. However, it is also a book of doctrine, since the Bible teaches us by direct statement, by example, and by implication.

The claim that the book of Acts is a "transitional" book is often made by those whose judgement is clouded by denominational bias. While it is the case that there are some things recorded in Acts that were only for the infant church (miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, for example), the doctrines taught by the apostles have been in effect since Acts 2, when the kingdom was established.

To suggest that Paul did not teach baptism as a prerequisite to salvation due to some imagined "transition" between Acts 2 and Acts 10 makes such satatements as are found in Rom 6:3-5, 17-18; Gal 3:26, 27; Eph 5:26; Titus 3:5, and elsewhere seem nonsensical.

That's the kind of thinking that betrays the general Biblical ignorance and doctrinal bias that has spawned the vast sea of man-made denominational organizations, which serves to confuse many to the point that they give up on Christ altogether.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

P-nut,

bmerr here. No time for a long answer right now. Let me say for starters that there are several names for the church found in the NT. The existence of one of these names on the "sign out front" of a place of assembly is not a guarantee that the doctrines taught therein are in accordance with Scripture.

Jesus said He would build His church (Matt 16:18). That church, or body (Eph 1:21, 22) is comprised of faithful congregations the world over. For instance, the letters to the seven churches of Asia in Revelation. Each was "to the church at (fill in the blank)".

The congregation with whom I worship is called the church of Christ at Needmore. A few decades ago, one could safely assemble with most any group known as the church of Christ and be sure to hear the apostles' doctrine. Sadly, this is no longer the case.

I've really got to go, but I'll get back with you later.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

P-nut,

bmerr here. I'ts later, so I'll try to finish what I started.

There's actually another thread talking about marks of the NT church, but with all the folks talking about Baptist church succession, and others trying to bring us all back under the Mosaic Law with their sabbath-keeping, maybe we can start over right here for a bit.

Its builder and founder is Christ (Matt 16:18)

Its date of inception is the first Pentecost after the resurrection of Christ (Acts 2)

Its sole authority for doctrine and practice is the Bible, specifically the NT, while recognizing eternal principles taught in the OT.

Its organization is that each congregation is under the care of a plurality of elders, whose qualifications can be found in 1 Tim 3 and Titus 1:5-9. Other Biblical names for this office are bishop (1 Tim 3:1), overseer (Acts 20:28), or pastor (Eph 4:11). These men watch as they that must give an account (Heb 13:17), and have authority only as a group, not as individuals. The "single pastor" system adopted by most denominational bodies is without Scriptural support.

Under these elders are deacons, men who are special servants without authority, to assist the elders in specific duties. Their qualifications are listed in 1 Tim 3:8-10, and also include those found for elders in the preceding verses.

Beyond these are the saints, all of whom should (but sadly, many do not) strive to meet the qualifications of elders and deacons, as these are reasonable goals for any Christian, whether serving as and elder or not.

Preachers, or ministers are men who have demonstrated the desire and ability to rightly divide the word of truth, and have the necessary personality and the desire for public speaking. They may be formally trained, but this is not required. They are usually referred to as "Brother so-and-so", and the ones I have met usually avoid the titles so sought after by their counterparts in the denominational world.

The whole 1st century organization can be found in one verse, Phil 1:1,

"Paul and Timotheus (preachers), the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints (members) in Christ Jesus which are at Phillipi, with the bishops and deacons:"

In worship, we do only what there is authorization for in the NT. Basically, there are five acts of NT worship.

1. Preaching/teaching (Acts 20:7, 8)

2. Praying (1 Cor 11:4)

3. Observing the Lord's Supper each 1st day of the week (Acts 20:7)

4. Singing a capella (Eph 5:19; Col 3:16)

5. Giving (1 Cor 16:2)

If you have any other questions, let me know. If I don't know the answer, I know lots of people smarter than I am.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

They are in complete harmony, but not in the way that you interpret them "wresting them to your own destruction" as Peter says.

Peter says no such thing. Their sins were remitted. On that basis were they baptized. The word "for" is a bit tricky there.

Purely symbolic. Baptism does nothing but get you wet. It is a picture. Read Rom.6:3,4 again. It says plainly
"that LIKE as Christ was raised up from the dead."
The word LIKE denotes a similie, which is a figure of speech denoting a symbolic picture. Baptism does nothing but get you wet. It is a picture of our death to our old sinful life, and our resurrection to a new life in Christ, just as the verses say. Learn how to read. Read verses 3 and 4 again.

That is simple isn't it. So why do you add to the word of God, baptism and make this a heresy. Do you enjoy spitting in the face of God and telling him that his blood is not enough, not sufficient enough to pay for his sins? Do you enjoy telling the Saviour off, by saying that you have to add to His atoning work and add your baptism to that sacrificial work because his blood wasn't good enough to atone for your sins? What blasphemy is this you believe in!!! It is absolute damnable heresy!

I have never in my life seen any blood at baptism. Do you let blood at baptism? Do people cut themselves putposely? Does the water turn itself into blood? How many other superstitions do you believe? You are like the Hindus who believe that the Ganges River washes away their sin. You have the same belief--pure paganism.

Paul makes it plain that Romans 6 is symbolic. Read the passage.

Every person is baptized into Christ at the point of Salvation by the Holy Spirit. So??
{qb]

Right. Redemption is through his blood. It is his blood that washes away our sin; not baptism. I wish that you would understand this great and wonderful truth, instead of adding to the Word of God, for which a person can be condemned for. iJohn 1:7 makes it very clear that the blood of Jesus Christ washes away all our sin--not baptism!

Yes, there is no hint of baptism in the gospel. In fact in the first chapter of 1Corinthians, Paul makes the point quite forcefully that God sent him to preach the gospel, Christ crucifed. Then he says quite clearly that God sent him not to baptize. Baptism is not part of the gospel, has nothing to do with salvation. Paul never put any emphasis on baptism while preaching the gospel. Christ sent him NOT to baptize. It is not important in the work of salvation. That much is very clear.

He that believeth not is not condemned. No mention there of not being baptized. The Bible harmonizes. It doesn't harmonize with your interpretation because you have to force it to do so. Paul was sent to preach the gospel, not to baptize.

The new birth begins at salvation when one trusts Christ as Saviour. It has nothing to do with baptism, never did. Read John 1:12.

That is a comparison of the unsaved life to the saved life. The saved life begins when one trusts Christ as Saviour. It has nothing to do with baptism. Baptism is not even mentioned in the passage.

What a perversion of Scripture. You are reading baptism into a passage of Scripture where there is no baptism. It is speaking of obedience to God, and submission to his authority by the power of the Holy Spirit. They obeyed doctrine. That is, the Word of God. It doesn't say rites and rituals.

I do. Just not your warped interpretation of it.
DHK

 

Just a simple observation:
When the Bible says there is but one condition to salvation:
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved,"
You divide that up into a six step process. That is wrongly dividing the word of truth, and thus end up with heresy.
DHK

 

DHK,

bmerr here. This is from a conversation with TexasSky dealing with the same objection based on the same Scripture.

Let me guess, "There's no mention of Paul commanding the jailor to be baptized!"

Well, there is no specific command to be baptized in the text, that is true. However, the fact that the jailor was baptized implies that he was commanded to do so.


In Christ,

bmerr

 

mman,

bmerr here. On the "Baptism prior to the 1520's" thread, Bob Edwards (I think) made a statement such as this in reference to Frank:

"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of time, and it annoys the pig."

I think there may be application for that statement on this thread, too.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

Your explanation tells me that you have not read the chapter. Is that so? Are you familiar with the story of the conversion of the Philippian jailor?
Let's look at some facts that are often over-looked.
1. Why were Paul and Silas in jail?
2. Was the jailor aware of the charges?
3. Do you think he would have been aware of the message that Paul was preaching that got him in jail in the first place??
4. What were Paul and Silas doing in the jail at midnight, just before the jailor came trembling before them bringing them out of the jail?

Here is some of the context that you are missing:

Acts 16:20-21 And brought them to the magistrates, saying, These men, being Jews, do exceedingly trouble our city,
21 And teach customs, which are not lawful for us to receive, neither to observe, being Romans.

How did Paul and Silas trouble the city, and what customs did they teach which the Romans would consider unlawful. Both questions can be answered with the preaching of the gospel. The preaching of the gospel turned people away from their official "pagan" religion and unto Christ, and thus "troubled" their city (from their point of view).
Seocnldly, other gods were allowed to be worshiped in the city by the Romans, but they were not allowed to be proclaimed publicly. Paul was in violation of this law. He was publicly proclaiming Christ, and they made this accusation against him in connection with troubling the city.

Now with all the preaching that Paul had done, don't you think that the jailor just might have heard the gospel before Paul and Silas were even sentenced there??

It is very evident that the jailor heard the gospel both outside and inside the jail before the miracle of the prison doors even opened. He had already heard the gospel being preached. Then in Acts 16:30 he asks again: "What must I do to be saved?" They answer him very simply: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." The jailor was not ignorant of the happenings of the city. He knew what was going on. He knew of Jesus Christ even before Paul entered into the jail. No matter what your view is here, Paul gave him the gospel. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved."
That is what it takes to be saved. One is saved by faith and faith alone. Eph.2:8,9 verifies it. Anyone who adds baptism to that message is perverting the message of Christ into a false gospel which Paul says: "Let him be anathema."
DHK

 

DHK

Please read Romans so you tell me Paul spends all that time demostrating that one ritual, circumcision, is of no avail in the new covenant only to tell them they have to replace it with another ritual, baptism, which you claim is of no avail.

Please explain