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2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by prophecynut, Aug 14, 2005.

  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    oops, double post
     
  2. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

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    ===


    If that is not your opinion, then why do you say that pretrib is "inseparable" from other doctrines ? If competent scholars as Hodge or Shedd or Grudem or Erickson or Ladd can believe in Christ's deity but at the same time not be pretrib, are not the two doctrines separable?
     
  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Before i say something, i'd like to explain:
    I believe in the virgin birth. There should be no way
    you can twist what i say below to mean otherwise.
    (But i'm sure some may try :( )

    Is the vigin birth an essential doctrine?
    No, the virgin birth of Christ is NOT an essential
    doctrine.

    The following logic is NOT my logic, but that others:
    Christ could have been the savior of the
    world without being born of a virgin. In fact, it would
    have been better by some logic if Jesus had not been
    born of a virgin: how could Jesus be tempted like me
    if he was NOT born with the curse of original sin upon Him?
    I was born with the curse of orignial sin upon me -- Jesus
    is NOT like me if He was born of a Virgin.

    If believing in the Virgin Birth of Christ was essential,
    then Romans 10:9 would read:

    Romans 10:9 (VBV = Virgin Birth Vesion):
    if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord,"
    and "Jesus is the SON OF THE BleSSED VIRGIN"
    and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead,
    you will be saved.

    The Virgin Birth is "inseparable" from other doctrines,
    however, it is NOT an essential doctrine.

    The pretribulation rapture/resurrection is an integral part
    of the other nine major Doctrines; the pretribulation rapture/resurreciton
    is NOT an essential doctrine.
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The question is asked as to how this fits with the future predicted in 2Thess 2:1-7 where the "man of sin" causes all to fall that do not "have a love of the truth".

    The answer is -- "perfectly".

    In Both Matt 24 and 2Thess 2 we see the same thing presented PRIOR to the return of Christ in the air to "receive us to Himself" and take us to that "place He has prepared for us" in His Father's house.
    And THEN we see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven - (as described in Matt 24 FUTURE to th writing of that Gospel).

    In the same way - before the return of Christ we ALSO see the deception that is predicted (future to Paul's day)

    The falling away of vs 1-4 came with the fall of the Christian church into the form of the RCC, and persecution of the saints by the church during the dark ages.

    But the "Great deception" described in both 2Thess 2 and in Matt 24 that comes at the end and BEFORE the return of Christ - has yet to take place.

    So to add to the sequence above ...

    0. The Christian church continues -- You are here

    1. The great apostacy of the dark ages (2Thess 2:2-4)
    2. The Seven last Plagues (Rev 16)
    3. The GREAT deception - (Matt 24, 2Thess 2)
    4. The 2nd Coming (the return of Christ APPEARING in the air) (Rev 19, 1Thess 4)
    5. The resurrection of the Righteous (John 5, Rev 20, 1Thess 4) which is the FIRST resurrection.
    6. Saints raptured up in the air to be with Christ (1Thess 4)

    7. The literal millennium - (Rev 20)
    8. The 2nd resurrection (John 5, Rev 20) of "wicked only" over whom the 2nd death DOES have power.
    9. The Lake of Fire event (Rev 20)
    10. The New heavens and New Earth (Rev 21)

    Exactly as the Bible described it - in the same order -- all literally true.

    Resurrection Counting

    Some are asking why John writing at Patmos - looking into the future -- is seeing the Rev 20 event at the Rev 19 2nd coming as the "FIRST resurrection".

    They wonder why that is the FIRST resurrection in the future for NT saints.

    They ask Why John looking into the future at "things which must shortly come to pass" did not see - "The resurrection of Christ" and also the OT saints raised in Matt 27 or the resurrection of Jarius' daughter etc.

    Yet it is actually quote obvious and clear why those PAST resurrections do not appear as THE FIRST one in the FUTURE as John looks down to the end of time.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    BobRyan: //2. Second Advent of Jesus event (1Thess 4, Rev 19)

    //2.A The FIRST resurrection (Rev 20) of the blessed and holy at Christ's appearing in Rev 19 - Is the same as the resurrection at Christ's return in 1Thess 4."

    //2.B. Saints taken to heaven as promised in John 14/

    The Second Advent of Jesus Event is NOT described in 1 Thess 4.
    1 Thess 4:13 - 5:11 describe the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
    of the Church Age saints. Note no mention is made of
    the armies of heaven (Rev 19) or the destruction
    of the beast (Rev 20) in 1 Thess 4:13 - 5:11 ,

    For your postribulation rapture only schema to be correct
    Revelation 20:5b must read (add-in all caps and bolded):

    This is the first AND ONLY resurrection.

    but it reads:
    Rev. 20:5b (HCSB): This is the first resurrection.

    There is a big difference between "first and only"
    and "first". "First and only" can mean only one,


    2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 doesn't make sense if 1 Tessalonians 4:13 - 5:11
    isn't talking about the pretribualtion rapture/resurrection.

    -----------------


    The Thessalonians were familiar with
    this saying of Jesus which we now find
    recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

    But he that shall endure unto
    the end, the same shall be saved.


    But some said of their friend "He got
    sick and died before Jesus came to
    get him, poor soul."

    Paul addresses this problem in
    a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
    one of the most comforting passages in the
    Bible.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

    13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning those who have fallen
    asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
    have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
    rose again, even so God will bring with Him
    those who sleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
    that we who are alive and remain until
    the coming of the Lord will by no means
    precede those who are asleep.
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend
    from heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
    And the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain
    shall be caught up (raptured)
    together with them in the clouds to meet
    the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
    always be with the Lord
    .
    18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
    5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
    brethren, you have no need that I should
    write to you.
    2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
    in the night.
    3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
    then sudden destruction comes upon them,
    as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
    And they shall not escape.
    4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
    so that this Day should overtake
    you as a thief.
    5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
    We are not of the night nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
    and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
    8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
    putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
    and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
    9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation through our
    Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
    we should live together with Him
    .
    11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
    one another
    , just as you also are doing.

    Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
    had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
    in a second letter:

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

    1 Now, brethren, concerning
    the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    and our gathering together to Him,
    we ask you
    ,
    2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
    either by spirit or by word or by letter,
    as if from us, as though the day of Christ
    had come
    .
    3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
    for that Day will not come unless
    the falling away comes first,
    and the man of sin
    is revealed, the son of perdition,

    The falling away that comes first
    is the Rapture!
    Then the man of sin is revealed, the
    antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
    begins.

    While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
    English versions before the KJV used a
    form of "departure" - again, the idea of
    someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
    rapture/resurrection

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible):
    Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
    not come, except there come a departing first, and that
    that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,


    There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
    the rapture.
    Here are some things that could happen
    before the rapture but they do NOT
    have to happen.

    1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
    2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
    (the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
    Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
    Tribulation period)
    3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
    on Mount Zion north of and alongside
    the Dome of the Rock.

    But again, these things do not HAVE
    TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
    happen after the rapture; they could happen
    before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
    HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
    rapture.

    --------------------------

    The only confusing part for many is that the
    DAY OF THE LORD in 1 Thess 5:2 is unequal to
    the DAY OF THE LORD in 2 Peter 3:10.

    The DAY OF THE LORD in Thess 5:2 is the whole
    Tribulation Period.
    The DAY OF THE LORD in 2 Peter 3:10 is the
    Millinnial Kingdom of Christ.
    The DAY OF CHRIST (KJV) or DAY OF THE LORD
    in 2 Thess 2:2 is the Second Advent Event
    at the close of the Tribulation Period when Jesus
    comes back to defeat the Antichrist and set up
    the physical Millinnial Kingdom of Christ.

    The Second Advent Event happens 7-years after
    the renewal of the 7-year Covenent; the Second Advent Event
    happens 3½-years after the AOD = Abomination of
    Desolation, event. The Second Advent Event is scheduled,
    given the pretribulation rapture date (unknown to us now),
    you can tell the day of the Second Advent Event.
    Only the Pretribualtion Rapture/resurrection is a secret
    (ahead of time, after the time, it is no secret).
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    We see that "second advent" is not in scripture as a "term" so we simply "observe" it by seeing that at the return of Christ we have the resurrection of the saints AND the "receiving of the saints up to Christ" (Rapture of the church) as promised in John 14. This is also described in Rev 19 as the bride made ready for the bride groom!

    So in fact the rapture of the church (1Thess 4) and the time when the bride is joined once again to Christ (Rev 19) - are the same event.

    The only way out of that obvious conclusion is to simply deny it without any real evidence in support of that denial -- as in

    #1. The tribulation is not mentioned in 1Thess 4 as coming after or before the event. The focus is ONLY on the appearing of Christ when He returns and the resurrection that accompanies that event. As seen in Rev 19 and 20.

    1Thess 4 does not mention the state of the wicked world at the time of the second coming OR the lapse of 2000 years from Paul to the end. Many many things are ignored to just focus on the singular event of Christ's appearing and the resurrection of the saints future to the day of Paul.

    The FIRST resurrection in the future - that John sees (in Rev 20:4-5)

    Nope.

    For the scenario described - Rev 20 just has to say of that future scene "THIS" is the FIRST resurrection.

    Which it does.

    THEN there HAS To be ANOTHER ONE so that the FIRST becomes the FIRST of "more than one".

    That is what "needs" to happen and that is what we see in Rev 20.

    "THE REST of the dead did not COME TO LIFE until AFTER the 1000 years".

    This point is devastating to many of the other views that seek to make the resurrection of 1Thess 4 "NOT the FIRST resurrection" in the future to John's day when writing on Patmos.

    Obviously.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Confusing only in that it is "not true".

    2Peter 3 speaks to the destruction of the world at the 2nd coming as does 1Thess 5 as does Daniel 2.

    In all three cases the end of earth's kingdoms is brought about by the establishment of Christ's kingdom which STARTS as the 1000 year period in heaven where the saints have been taken to "My Father's house where there are many dwelling places" John 14.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. prophecynut

    prophecynut New Member

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    quote:Ed Edwards
    The only confusing part for many is that the
    DAY OF THE LORD in 1 Thess 5:2 is unequal to
    the DAY OF THE LORD in 2 Peter 3:10.

    Although both occur within the day of the Lord, there is a big difference, Thess. is the Rapture while 2 Pet. is renovation of the earth by fire in preparation for the new heavens and new earth and the eternal state. As verse 10 says, "the heavens will disappear with a roar: the elements will be destoyred by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare." 2 Pet. cannot happen at the beginning of Tribulation or at the Second Coming because there would be no people on earth to fulfill the prophecies during the Tribulation and the Millennium.
     
  9. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    I'm studying Daniel 9-12 for my Sunday School
    lesson tomorrow (only an hour, i'll never
    have time to cover the subject :( )

    Here are some new thoughts:

    Dan 9:24 (KJV1769 Edition with Strong's numbers):
    Seventy7657 weeks7620 are determined2852 upon5921 thy people5971
    and upon5921 thy holy6944 city,5892 to finish3607
    the transgression,6588
    and to make an end2856 of sins,2403
    and to make reconciliation3722 for iniquity,5771
    and to bring in935 everlasting5769 righteousness,6664
    and to seal up2856 the vision2377 and prophecy,5030
    and to anoint4886 the most Holy.6944, 6944

    Note that I have interperted this to mean 5 primary ANDs
    and 1 secondary AND (seperating vision & Prophecy)

    the 6944 word repeated twice is translated as "the most HOly".
    So 'qôdesh qôdesh' must refer to Messiah Jesus.

    This element is to be finished in the 70th week of Daniel.
    The 70th week of Daniel cannot be resurrection week,
    for the Jews 'thy people' rejected Jesus as their Messiah.
    The Tribulation is God's plan to win the Jews to Himself.
    The Tribualtion is future.

    From Strong's: //H6944
    קדשׁ
    qôdesh
    ko'-desh
    From H6942; a sacred place or thing; rarely abstractly sanctity: - consecrated (thing), dedicated (thing), hallowed (thing), holiness, (X most) holy (X day, portion, thing), saint, sanctuary.


    \o/ Praise Messiah Yeshua \o/
     
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    BobRyan: " ... the 1000 year period in heaven ... "

    quite franly i believe the 1,000 year period is physical
    on a physical earth and a physical Jesus will rule a physcial
    world from a physical throne in a physical Yerusalem.

    I'll never convert to a-millinnial (a-mill) who
    spiritualize the millinnial kingdom of Christ
    and many of whom spiritualize the second coming
    of Christ in power and glory to defeat the Antichrist.

    The pretribulation rapture/resurrection is
    real, physical, and coming to the world
    in your area soon! [​IMG]
     
  11. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    So the day of the Lord is 1,000 years long.

    Why can't i include the 7-year tribulation
    for a 1,007 day of the Lord?
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Me too.

    Me too.

    Jesus will rule a physical UNIVERSE from a physical throne in a physical Heavenly Jerusalem.

    And that UNIVERSE will include the desolated earth.

    Good for you.

    I sorta assumed that you had.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Ed, since you brought up Daniel 9 -- and the idea that a contiguous Bible timeline prophecy can be cut, shopped, scattered and injected with undefined units of time...

    Let's go there.



    Daniel 9


    Daniel's Prayer for His People

    1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of Median descent, who was made king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans--
    2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.
    [/quote]

    Daniel 9 starts with a 70 year timeline prophecy given by Jeremiah. This timeline prophecy of 70 years – LIKE ALL timeline prophecies in scripture, is contiguous! IF Daniel had the problem of “undefined units of time inserted into the timeline” he could have no predictable use of the timeline as a time “ruler” with a start and end point and a duration that is EXACTLY as specified in the prophecy. Hence we so no “shattering and scattering” of Bible timelines – not even the 70 years of Jeremiah!.

    =================================================================================


    Seventy Weeks and the Messiah


    Dan 9: 24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city,

    Here in Daniel we find the 70 week prophetic time span of (70 prophetic weeks, 490 literal years). This time span is explicitly quantified by the number 70 (70weeks) just as the other time span of Daniel 9 - the 70 year time span in Dan 9:2 was explicitly quantified by the number 70.

    In the remaining verses of Daniel 9 we will see the single time span of 70 weeks detailed into a timeline covering the entire 490 year period.

    This prophetic timeline that forms that complete contiguous time span of 70 weeks works exactly as all other Bible time spans with numeric values encompassing the entire span of time. The 70 years of Jeremiah mentioned in Dan 9:2 show a prophetic span of time without gaps. The 400 years of Genesis 15:13 also show a span of time that is reliable and valid for calculating and predicting events in the timeline associated with that span of time.

    IF (as some suppose in recent times) a time span could be injected with "undefined gaps of time" - then the Jews might still be in Babylon using the 70 years of Daniel 9:2 infested with gaps. Or the Hebrews might still be enslaved in Egypt using the 400 years of Genesis 15:13 and injecting "undefined gaps of time" into it.

    Inserting gaps into time spans that are numerically quantified as we see with the 70 years and the 70 weeks - voids the entire span of time as a reliable source of information and prophecy. IF a builder contracts to build your house in 3 months but then injects "undefined gaps of time" between the 2nd and 3rd month - the entire 3 month contract is made void. IT could be 3 years or 3 decades as long as "gaps of time of undefined duration' are allowed.

    IN the same way - inserting such "Gaps of time" would extend out the 7 day timeline of Genesis 1-2:3 to any length of time one is inclined to interject. Injecting gaps into quantified time spans is classic eisegesis.

    All agree that "for your people" refers to the Jews as the "Holy nation, royal priesthood, chosen by God" - the Hebrew nation church of Israel. The time span is specifically assigned to Israel - literally.


    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Dan 9:24
    (continued)
    Kalah (3615) to finish the transgression, Tamam(8552) to make an end of sin,

    Tamam (8552) "end", "finish" "complete", "spent"
    Kalah (3615) "finish" (Ezra 1:1) "Fulfill" Gen 15 "complete" - "come to an end"
    [/b]

    Here Daniel predicts that during this 490 year span of time - they will complete the measure of their sin and guilt.

    The sense of Kalay in Dan 9 used in prophecy and tied to a length of time for sin (a time span) is the same as we find it in Genesis 15 -

    Gen 15:
    13 God said to Abram, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, where (17) they will be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years.
    14 "But I will also judge the nation whom they will serve, and afterward they will come out with many possessions.
    15 "As for you, (20) you shall go to your fathers in peace; you will be buried at a good old age.
    16 "Then in (21) the fourth generation they will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet (Kalah)complete."

    Just as the Amorites were given a 400 year time span to fill up the measure of their iniquity - so Israel is given 490 years from the time of the decree listed in Daniel 9 to complete their measure of iniquity.

    The measure of guilt was fast filling in the days of Christ - He predicts they will fill it up in that generation

    Paul declares that they had already filled up their measure of sin and iniquity by the time of his ministry.
    ========================================================

    Daniel 9:24 (continued)
    to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy
    [/I]

    This 70 week prophetic span of time (490 literal years) would bring in the Messiah and fulfill all righteousness - fulfilling all vision and prophecy pertaining to Israel and the Messiah during this 490 year span of time.

    The final atonement for sin - through the Messiah - fhe focus of the nation's festivals and religious services..

    1John 2:2Christ is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and the sins of the whole world.

    To bring in "everlasting righteousness"
    Matt 3:15 - Christ "fulfilled all righteousness" when He came.


    Romans 3:
    21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
    22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;


    The completion of all vision and prophecy pertaining to the Messiah and the nation of Israel.
    All prophecy and vision pertaining to Israel's Messiah - the Savior of the World

     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    b]Daniel 9:24[/b] and to anoint the most holy place.

    During this 490 year span of time the Most Holy place in heaven - the temple built by God "without hands", Christ (the Messiah the Anointed one) would anoint the most holy place.
    Christ is seen in Hebrews 9 to anoint the most Holy Place and to offer the “one sacrifice” that obsoletes all others. Putting an end to sacrifice and offering. His alone is the only real sacrifice for the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sins.
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Christ (Hebrew Messiah) – is the “anointed one”. This was fulfilled at His baptism.

    And so when Christ begins His ministry He announced that prophetic time had been fulfilled
    Mark 1:15 - "The Kingdom of God is at hand – the time is fulfilled"

    Christ is the anointed one – anointed by the Holy Spirit.

    Here we see the timeline broken down into discrete segments - each following the other. 7 weeks (49 years) assigned to the rebuilding of Jerusalem - followed by 62 weeks making a total of 69 weeks (483 literal years) and the beginning of the mission of the "anointed one" the Messiah.

    And so when Christ begins His ministry He announced that prophetic time had been fulfilled
    Mark 1:15 - "The Kingdom of God is at hand – the time is fulfilled"

    And so begins Christ's 3.5 year ministry in fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy.

    So far the exact matching anti-type fulfillment in the NT is far more "explicit" in fulfilling the prophetic components of Daniel 9 - using this explicit and direct approach - than all other proposed solutions. None of them contain the direct references and language for Daniel 9 as we have seen here so far.
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    But what happens "after the 483 years" - "after the 69 weeks" - "after the 7 plus 62 weeks" of prophetic time?

    Again - using the Explicit language of the text - instead of the suppositions so common today.

    After 7+62 weeks (After the 69 weeks) – comes the 70th week. In that Week the Messiah is cut off. Still many views depend on ignoring this key fact and reading “instead” that “at or near the END of the 69th week the Messiah is cut off”

    Isaiah sees this same crucifixion event.

    Instead of pointing us to an undefined gap of time as the event that follows "AFTER" the 69 weeks - Daniel's prophecy Continues on the SAME timeline - through the 490 years timeline. The 69 weeks takes us TO the advent of the Messiah and then After that 483 year boundary - comes the events of the Messiah in that last week - in the last 7 years in the week that follows the 69th week -- and what follows is the cross.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Certainly it is agreed that "After the 69th week" Christ was crucified - in fact He was crucified in the midst of the 70th week which also meant the sacrifices were at an end.

    Notice here that there are TWO actors. The Messiah (who will be cut off) and the PEOPLE of the prince who is to come.

    AND after that - (in fact long after that) - the city and the sanctuary were destroyed by the people of Rome - the Roman army (70 A. D) but that is another event AFTER the 69th week and After the cross and After even the 70th week.

    But in the NT - it is the Jews THEMSELVES that bring about the destruction of the city according to Christ's own statements. The people of the Prince who is to come - Messiah the Prince - His people are the Jews and the NT declares that THEY were the "People" that would not let God spare the city.

    In John 1 we are told that the "people of Messiah the Prince" are the Jews. "HE came unto His own and His own received Him not". Isaiah 9:6 foretells the same message of the Messiah as coming prince - Dan 9:25

    In Mat 23:37-38 we are told that Christ came to save the city and the nation but the "people of the prince" would not have it.
    When Christ weeps over the city He says - the city is destroyed because of a specific reason relating to the people of the prince..
    Daniel uses the symbol for war "a flood" and declares that war and desolation are "Decreed". Indeed Moses did predict that just such a result would occur.

    The "house left desolate" Matt 23:38 is a direct fulfillment of what "is decreed" by God
    1Kings 9:6-7, Jer 22:5, Micah 3:11-12, Ezek 11:21-23.
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Dan 9:27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, NASB

    (Shall make a covenant Stronger – firm?)

    NKJV 27Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;

    YLT – Youngs Literal Translation
    27And He hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week,


    ”He hath strengthened a covenant” – this “HE” is a reference to vs 26. In vs 26 we have only two choices – it can be “Messiah the Prince” or it can be the other actor in vs 26 “The PEOPLE of the prince who is to come”. The fact that this is singular means that it can not be “THE PEOPLE of the prince who is to come”. So that leaves only “the MESSIAH” as the proper antecedent to the pronoun “he”.

    Daniel is told that the period of "strengthening" the covenant last for the entire 7 years - for the entire 70th week that follows the 69th week. The historicist messianic view presented here promotes the full 7 year period as the time when the covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-32 (Hebrews 8:8-12) is being "Confirmed" and strengthened.

    Christ says explicitly that the work of the Messiah is very much tied to the covenant

    At the start of Christ’s ministry – at the sermon on the mount Christ provides the blessings (Matt 5:3-11) and the curses (Matt 7:13-27) and affirms His own Law already given (Matt 5:21-48) declaring them to be unbreakable – He adds even deeper “stronger” meaning to the ones already in place (Matt 6:19-7:11)

    This is in direct parallel to Moses giving the Covenant to Israel with the blessing and curse and the Law of God defined.

    (Notice that IN the words of the New Covenant - the Law of the New Covenant is the existing moral code defining sin and rebellion -- Christ the Creator’s moral law known and in force at the time of Jeremiah )

    #1. God’s Law- is still in place even in the New Covenant – it is that same law “Written on the heart”.

    #2. This covenant is in place while God’s promise to Israel is in place that He would forgive them for their rebellion and would not cast them off.

    #3. Christ comes to strengthen that Covenant – already in place – with promises to Israel already in place – with the Jer 31 promise of the city of Jeremiah's day rebuilt – already in place in Christ's day.

    Peter shows this strengthening of existing salvation covenants, laws and promises in his letter to the church. Peter declares that this is the subject of the OT – this the great

    Peter declares salvation’s covenantal promises of the OT to be “made more sure” in the fact of “seeing Christ” ministry during the time of His first coming.

    Matt 26:28 "This is My blood of the Covenant", which is shed on behalf of Many for the forgiveness of sins"

    1Cor 11:25 "This cup IS the New Covenant in My blood".

    2Cor 3 tells us that it is the New Covenant alone that is "the ministry of righteousness" and "the covenant that gives life" .

    Galatians 1:6-9 tells us that there has been only one gospel. And the message of the New Covenant alone is life, forgiveness and restored fellowship with God as we see it in Heb 8:8-12).

    At the start of Christ's ministry we have the covenant "strengthened" in the form of the Long promised Messiah of the New Covenant finally arriving.

    In the middle of "the week" of seven years we have the New Covenant "strengthened" in the form of the atoning sacrifice being made.

    Then in the last 3.5 years we have it "strengthened" in the form of the full message of the atoning sacrifice of the Messiah preached in its fullness to the Hebrew nation church - the "Holy Nation" "Royal Priesthood" - "People for God's own possession".

    At each step the covenant is strengthened until it reaches its complete zenith of proclamation to the Hebrews.
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The abominations begin with the rejection of the Hebrew nation of it's own king and Messiah and the curse pronounced on themselves "His blood be upon us and upon our children" Matt 27:24-25. And it completes with the work of the pagan Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem and making a "complete destruction" in 70 A.D.

    This is a view endorsed by the NT apostles and rejected by NT Jews.

    Acts 2:23
    22 ""Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know
    23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
    24 "" But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

    Acts 4:8-10
    7 When they had placed them in the center, they began to inquire, ""By what power, or in what name, have you done this?''
    8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "" Rulers and elders of the people,
    9 if we are on trial today for a benefit done to a sick man, as to how this man has been made well,
    10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead by this name this man stands here before you in good health.

    1 Thess 2
    14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews,
    15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men,
    16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.

    Acts 5:28-30
    27 When they had brought them, they stood them before the Council. The high priest questioned them,
    28 saying, "We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man's blood upon us."
     
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