2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

[Ed Edwards]

oops, double post

 

[UZThD]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
UZThD: "I do agree that major tenets must cohere."

Amen, Brother UZThD -- Preach it!

UZThD: "But probably I would not agree that holding to pretrib is essential if one holds to the deity of Christ or some other major doctrines. IF that Is THAT your opinion, then state your evidence."


It is not my opinion.

===


If that is not your opinion, then why do you say that pretrib is "inseparable" from other doctrines ? If competent scholars as Hodge or Shedd or Grudem or Erickson or Ladd can believe in Christ's deity but at the same time not be pretrib, are not the two doctrines separable?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Before i say something, i'd like to explain:
I believe in the virgin birth. There should be no way
you can twist what i say below to mean otherwise.
(But i'm sure some may try )

Is the vigin birth an essential doctrine?
No, the virgin birth of Christ is NOT an essential
doctrine.

The following logic is NOT my logic, but that others:
Christ could have been the savior of the
world without being born of a virgin. In fact, it would
have been better by some logic if Jesus had not been
born of a virgin: how could Jesus be tempted like me
if he was NOT born with the curse of original sin upon Him?
I was born with the curse of orignial sin upon me -- Jesus
is NOT like me if He was born of a Virgin.

If believing in the Virgin Birth of Christ was essential,
then Romans 10:9 would read:

Romans 10:9 (VBV = Virgin Birth Vesion):
if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord,"
and "Jesus is the SON OF THE BleSSED VIRGIN"
and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead,
you will be saved.

The Virgin Birth is "inseparable" from other doctrines,
however, it is NOT an essential doctrine.

The pretribulation rapture/resurrection is an integral part
of the other nine major Doctrines; the pretribulation rapture/resurreciton
is NOT an essential doctrine.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Postrib pre-mill outline:

0. church age continues -- you are here
1. Tribulation time
2. Second Advent of Jesus event (1Thess 4, Rev 19)
2.A The FIRST resurrection (Rev 20) of the blessed and holy at Christ's appearing in Rev 19 - Is the same as the resurrection at Christ's return in 1Thess 4.
2.B. Saints taken to heaven as promised in John 14
3. literal millennium spent in heaven with Christ (Rev 20)
4. Second Resurrection (Rev 20)
5. Lake of Fire destruction of the wicked (Rev 20)
6. new heaven & new earth (Rev 21)

In this view the First Resurrection John sees (Rev 20) which is at Christ's Rev 19 appearing is the SAME resurrection that Paul describes at Christ's appearing in 1Thess 4. The resurrection of the righteous.

In this view the sequence of Rev 19, 20 and 21 is literal and plain. No gimmicks!

The question is asked as to how this fits with the future predicted in 2Thess 2:1-7 where the "man of sin" causes all to fall that do not "have a love of the truth".

The answer is -- "perfectly".

In Both Matt 24 and 2Thess 2 we see the same thing presented PRIOR to the return of Christ in the air to "receive us to Himself" and take us to that "place He has prepared for us" in His Father's house.

In Matt 24 we read this

23 "" Then if anyone says to you, "[/b]Behold, here is the Christ[/b],' or " There He is,' do not believe him.
24 ""For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
25 ""Behold, I have told you in advance.

And THEN we see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven - (as described in Matt 24 FUTURE to th writing of that Gospel).

In the same way - before the return of Christ we ALSO see the deception that is predicted (future to Paul's day)

2Thess 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

The falling away of vs 1-4 came with the fall of the Christian church into the form of the RCC, and persecution of the saints by the church during the dark ages.

But the "Great deception" described in both 2Thess 2 and in Matt 24 that comes at the end and BEFORE the return of Christ - has yet to take place.

So to add to the sequence above ...

0. The Christian church continues -- You are here

1. The great apostacy of the dark ages (2Thess 2:2-4)
2. The Seven last Plagues (Rev 16)
3. The GREAT deception - (Matt 24, 2Thess 2)
4. The 2nd Coming (the return of Christ APPEARING in the air) (Rev 19, 1Thess 4)
5. The resurrection of the Righteous (John 5, Rev 20, 1Thess 4) which is the FIRST resurrection.
6. Saints raptured up in the air to be with Christ (1Thess 4)

7. The literal millennium - (Rev 20)
8. The 2nd resurrection (John 5, Rev 20) of "wicked only" over whom the 2nd death DOES have power.
9. The Lake of Fire event (Rev 20)
10. The New heavens and New Earth (Rev 21)

Exactly as the Bible described it - in the same order -- all literally true.

Resurrection Counting

Some are asking why John writing at Patmos - looking into the future -- is seeing the Rev 20 event at the Rev 19 2nd coming as the "FIRST resurrection".

They wonder why that is the FIRST resurrection in the future for NT saints.

They ask Why John looking into the future at "things which must shortly come to pass" did not see - "The resurrection of Christ" and also the OT saints raised in Matt 27 or the resurrection of Jarius' daughter etc.

Yet it is actually quote obvious and clear why those PAST resurrections do not appear as THE FIRST one in the FUTURE as John looks down to the end of time.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

BobRyan: //2. Second Advent of Jesus event (1Thess 4, Rev 19)

//2.A The FIRST resurrection (Rev 20) of the blessed and holy at Christ's appearing in Rev 19 - Is the same as the resurrection at Christ's return in 1Thess 4."

//2.B. Saints taken to heaven as promised in John 14/

The Second Advent of Jesus Event is NOT described in 1 Thess 4.
1 Thess 4:13 - 5:11 describe the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
of the Church Age saints. Note no mention is made of
the armies of heaven (Rev 19) or the destruction
of the beast (Rev 20) in 1 Thess 4:13 - 5:11 ,

For your postribulation rapture only schema to be correct
Revelation 20:5b must read (add-in all caps and bolded):

This is the first AND ONLY resurrection.

but it reads:
Rev. 20:5b (HCSB): This is the first resurrection.

There is a big difference between "first and only"
and "first". "First and only" can mean only one,


2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 doesn't make sense if 1 Tessalonians 4:13 - 5:11
isn't talking about the pretribualtion rapture/resurrection.

-----------------


The Thessalonians were familiar with
this saying of Jesus which we now find
recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.

But some said of their friend "He got
sick and died before Jesus came to
get him, poor soul."

Paul addresses this problem in
a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
one of the most comforting passages in the
Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning those who have fallen
asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so God will bring with Him
those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means
precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up (raptured)
together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
brethren, you have no need that I should
write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
so that this Day should overtake
you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation through our
Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
one another, just as you also are doing.

Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
in a second letter:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition,

The falling away that comes first
is the Rapture!
Then the man of sin is revealed, the
antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
begins.

While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
English versions before the KJV used a
form of "departure" - again, the idea of
someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
not come, except there come a departing first, and that
that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,


There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
the rapture.
Here are some things that could happen
before the rapture but they do NOT
have to happen.

1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
(the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
Tribulation period)
3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
on Mount Zion north of and alongside
the Dome of the Rock.

But again, these things do not HAVE
TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
happen after the rapture; they could happen
before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
rapture.

--------------------------

The only confusing part for many is that the
DAY OF THE LORD in 1 Thess 5:2 is unequal to
the DAY OF THE LORD in 2 Peter 3:10.

The DAY OF THE LORD in Thess 5:2 is the whole
Tribulation Period.
The DAY OF THE LORD in 2 Peter 3:10 is the
Millinnial Kingdom of Christ.
The DAY OF CHRIST (KJV) or DAY OF THE LORD
in 2 Thess 2:2 is the Second Advent Event
at the close of the Tribulation Period when Jesus
comes back to defeat the Antichrist and set up
the physical Millinnial Kingdom of Christ.

The Second Advent Event happens 7-years after
the renewal of the 7-year Covenent; the Second Advent Event
happens 3½-years after the AOD = Abomination of
Desolation, event. The Second Advent Event is scheduled,
given the pretribulation rapture date (unknown to us now),
you can tell the day of the Second Advent Event.
Only the Pretribualtion Rapture/resurrection is a secret
(ahead of time, after the time, it is no secret).

 

[BobRyan]

Bobryan said

2. Second Advent of Jesus event (1Thess 4, Rev 19)

2.A The FIRST resurrection (Rev 20) of the blessed and holy at Christ's appearing in Rev 19 - Is the same as the resurrection at Christ's return in 1Thess 4."

2.B. Saints taken to heaven as promised in John 14

We see that "second advent" is not in scripture as a "term" so we simply "observe" it by seeing that at the return of Christ we have the resurrection of the saints AND the "receiving of the saints up to Christ" (Rapture of the church) as promised in John 14. This is also described in Rev 19 as the bride made ready for the bride groom!

So in fact the rapture of the church (1Thess 4) and the time when the bride is joined once again to Christ (Rev 19) - are the same event.

The only way out of that obvious conclusion is to simply deny it without any real evidence in support of that denial -- as in

Ed Edwards

The Second Advent of Jesus Event is NOT described in 1 Thess 4.
1 Thess 4:13 - 5:11 describe the pretribulation rapture/resurrection

#1. The tribulation is not mentioned in 1Thess 4 as coming after or before the event. The focus is ONLY on the appearing of Christ when He returns and the resurrection that accompanies that event. As seen in Rev 19 and 20.

1Thess 4 does not mention the state of the wicked world at the time of the second coming OR the lapse of 2000 years from Paul to the end. Many many things are ignored to just focus on the singular event of Christ's appearing and the resurrection of the saints future to the day of Paul.

The FIRST resurrection in the future - that John sees (in Rev 20:4-5)

Ed Edwards says

For your postribulation rapture only schema to be correct
Revelation 20:5b must read

This is the first AND ONLY resurrection.

Nope.

For the scenario described - Rev 20 just has to say of that future scene "THIS" is the FIRST resurrection.

Which it does.

THEN there HAS To be ANOTHER ONE so that the FIRST becomes the FIRST of "more than one".

That is what "needs" to happen and that is what we see in Rev 20.

"THE REST of the dead did not COME TO LIFE until AFTER the 1000 years".

This point is devastating to many of the other views that seek to make the resurrection of 1Thess 4 "NOT the FIRST resurrection" in the future to John's day when writing on Patmos.

Obviously.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Ed Edwards
The only confusing part for many is that the
DAY OF THE LORD in 1 Thess 5:2 is unequal to
the DAY OF THE LORD in 2 Peter 3:10.

Confusing only in that it is "not true".

2Peter 3 speaks to the destruction of the world at the 2nd coming as does 1Thess 5 as does Daniel 2.

In all three cases the end of earth's kingdoms is brought about by the establishment of Christ's kingdom which STARTS as the 1000 year period in heaven where the saints have been taken to "My Father's house where there are many dwelling places" John 14.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[prophecynut]

quote:Ed Edwards
The only confusing part for many is that the
DAY OF THE LORD in 1 Thess 5:2 is unequal to
the DAY OF THE LORD in 2 Peter 3:10.

Although both occur within the day of the Lord, there is a big difference, Thess. is the Rapture while 2 Pet. is renovation of the earth by fire in preparation for the new heavens and new earth and the eternal state. As verse 10 says, "the heavens will disappear with a roar: the elements will be destoyred by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare." 2 Pet. cannot happen at the beginning of Tribulation or at the Second Coming because there would be no people on earth to fulfill the prophecies during the Tribulation and the Millennium.

 

[Ed Edwards]

I'm studying Daniel 9-12 for my Sunday School
lesson tomorrow (only an hour, i'll never
have time to cover the subject )

Here are some new thoughts:

Dan 9:24 (KJV1769 Edition with Strong's numbers):
Seventy7657 weeks7620 are determined2852 upon5921 thy people5971
and upon5921 thy holy6944 city,5892 to finish3607
the transgression,6588
and to make an end2856 of sins,2403
and to make reconciliation3722 for iniquity,5771
and to bring in935 everlasting5769 righteousness,6664
and to seal up2856 the vision2377 and prophecy,5030
and to anoint4886 the most Holy.6944, 6944

Note that I have interperted this to mean 5 primary ANDs
and 1 secondary AND (seperating vision & Prophecy)

the 6944 word repeated twice is translated as "the most HOly".
So 'qôdesh qôdesh' must refer to Messiah Jesus.

This element is to be finished in the 70th week of Daniel.
The 70th week of Daniel cannot be resurrection week,
for the Jews 'thy people' rejected Jesus as their Messiah.
The Tribulation is God's plan to win the Jews to Himself.
The Tribualtion is future.

From Strong's: //H6944
קדשׁ
qôdesh
ko'-desh
From H6942; a sacred place or thing; rarely abstractly sanctity: - consecrated (thing), dedicated (thing), hallowed (thing), holiness, (X most) holy (X day, portion, thing), saint, sanctuary.

\o/ Praise Messiah Yeshua \o/

 

[Ed Edwards]

BobRyan: " ... the 1000 year period in heaven ... "

quite franly i believe the 1,000 year period is physical
on a physical earth and a physical Jesus will rule a physcial
world from a physical throne in a physical Yerusalem.

I'll never convert to a-millinnial (a-mill) who
spiritualize the millinnial kingdom of Christ
and many of whom spiritualize the second coming
of Christ in power and glory to defeat the Antichrist.

The pretribulation rapture/resurrection is
real, physical, and coming to the world
in your area soon!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
quote:Ed Edwards
The only confusing part for many is that the
DAY OF THE LORD in 1 Thess 5:2 is unequal to
the DAY OF THE LORD in 2 Peter 3:10.

Although both occur within the day of the Lord, there is a big difference, Thess. is the Rapture while 2 Pet. is renovation of the earth by fire in preparation for the new heavens and new earth and the eternal state. As verse 10 says, "the heavens will disappear with a roar: the elements will be destoyred by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare." 2 Pet. cannot happen at the beginning of Tribulation or at the Second Coming because there would be no people on earth to fulfill the prophecies during the Tribulation and the Millennium.

So the day of the Lord is 1,000 years long.

Why can't i include the 7-year tribulation
for a 1,007 day of the Lord?

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan: " ... the 1000 year period in heaven ... "

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:

quite franly i believe the 1,000 year period is physical

Me too.

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
a physical Jesus will rule

Me too.

Jesus will rule a physical UNIVERSE from a physical throne in a physical Heavenly Jerusalem.

And that UNIVERSE will include the desolated earth.

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
I'll never convert to a-millinnial (a-mill) who
spiritualize the millinnial kingdom of Christ

Good for you.

I sorta assumed that you had.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Ed, since you brought up Daniel 9 -- and the idea that a contiguous Bible timeline prophecy can be cut, shopped, scattered and injected with undefined units of time...

Let's go there.



Daniel 9

Daniel's Prayer for His People

1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of Median descent, who was made king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans--
2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.
[/quote]

Daniel 9 starts with a 70 year timeline prophecy given by Jeremiah. This timeline prophecy of 70 years – LIKE ALL timeline prophecies in scripture, is contiguous! IF Daniel had the problem of “undefined units of time inserted into the timeline” he could have no predictable use of the timeline as a time “ruler” with a start and end point and a duration that is EXACTLY as specified in the prophecy. Hence we so no “shattering and scattering” of Bible timelines – not even the 70 years of Jeremiah!.

=================================================================================


Seventy Weeks and the Messiah


Dan 9: 24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city,

Here in Daniel we find the 70 week prophetic time span of (70 prophetic weeks, 490 literal years). This time span is explicitly quantified by the number 70 (70weeks) just as the other time span of Daniel 9 - the 70 year time span in Dan 9:2 was explicitly quantified by the number 70.

In the remaining verses of Daniel 9 we will see the single time span of 70 weeks detailed into a timeline covering the entire 490 year period.

This prophetic timeline that forms that complete contiguous time span of 70 weeks works exactly as all other Bible time spans with numeric values encompassing the entire span of time. The 70 years of Jeremiah mentioned in Dan 9:2 show a prophetic span of time without gaps. The 400 years of Genesis 15:13 also show a span of time that is reliable and valid for calculating and predicting events in the timeline associated with that span of time.

IF (as some suppose in recent times) a time span could be injected with "undefined gaps of time" - then the Jews might still be in Babylon using the 70 years of Daniel 9:2 infested with gaps. Or the Hebrews might still be enslaved in Egypt using the 400 years of Genesis 15:13 and injecting "undefined gaps of time" into it.

Inserting gaps into time spans that are numerically quantified as we see with the 70 years and the 70 weeks - voids the entire span of time as a reliable source of information and prophecy. IF a builder contracts to build your house in 3 months but then injects "undefined gaps of time" between the 2nd and 3rd month - the entire 3 month contract is made void. IT could be 3 years or 3 decades as long as "gaps of time of undefined duration' are allowed.

IN the same way - inserting such "Gaps of time" would extend out the 7 day timeline of Genesis 1-2:3 to any length of time one is inclined to interject. Injecting gaps into quantified time spans is classic eisegesis.

All agree that "for your people" refers to the Jews as the "Holy nation, royal priesthood, chosen by God" - the Hebrew nation church of Israel. The time span is specifically assigned to Israel - literally.


In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Dan 9:24 (continued)
Kalah (3615) to finish the transgression, Tamam(8552) to make an end of sin,

Tamam (8552) "end", "finish" "complete", "spent"
Kalah (3615) "finish" (Ezra 1:1) "Fulfill" Gen 15 "complete" - "come to an end"
[/b]

Here Daniel predicts that during this 490 year span of time - they will complete the measure of their sin and guilt.

The sense of Kalay in Dan 9 used in prophecy and tied to a length of time for sin (a time span) is the same as we find it in Genesis 15 -

Gen 15:
13 God said to Abram, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, where (17) they will be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years.
14 "But I will also judge the nation whom they will serve, and afterward they will come out with many possessions.
15 "As for you, (20) you shall go to your fathers in peace; you will be buried at a good old age.
16 "Then in (21) the fourth generation they will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet (Kalah)complete."

Just as the Amorites were given a 400 year time span to fill up the measure of their iniquity - so Israel is given 490 years from the time of the decree listed in Daniel 9 to complete their measure of iniquity.

Matt 23:
31 "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
32 "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.

The measure of guilt was fast filling in the days of Christ - He predicts they will fill it up in that generation

Matt 23
33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

Paul declares that they had already filled up their measure of sin and iniquity by the time of his ministry.

1 Thess 2
14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews,
15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men,
16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.

========================================================

Daniel 9:24 (continued)
to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy [/I]

This 70 week prophetic span of time (490 literal years) would bring in the Messiah and fulfill all righteousness - fulfilling all vision and prophecy pertaining to Israel and the Messiah during this 490 year span of time.

The final atonement for sin - through the Messiah - fhe focus of the nation's festivals and religious services..

1John 2:2 – Christ is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and the sins of the whole world.

To bring in "everlasting righteousness"
Matt 3:15 - Christ "fulfilled all righteousness" when He came.

Romans 3:
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

The completion of all vision and prophecy pertaining to the Messiah and the nation of Israel.
All prophecy and vision pertaining to Israel's Messiah - the Savior of the World

1 Peter 1:
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

 

[BobRyan]

b]Daniel 9:24[/b] and to anoint the most holy place.

During this 490 year span of time the Most Holy place in heaven - the temple built by God "without hands", Christ (the Messiah the Anointed one) would anoint the most holy place.

Hebrews 9:
18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood.
19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
20 saying, "" THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU.''
21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood.
22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.

Christ is seen in Hebrews 9 to anoint the most Holy Place and to offer the “one sacrifice” that obsoletes all others. Putting an end to sacrifice and offering. His alone is the only real sacrifice for the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sins.

 

[BobRyan]

Daniel 9:
25 "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

Christ (Hebrew Messiah) – is the “anointed one”. This was fulfilled at His baptism.

And so when Christ begins His ministry He announced that prophetic time had been fulfilled
Mark 1:15 - "The Kingdom of God is at hand – the time is fulfilled"

Acts 10
36 ""The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)
37 you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed.
38 "" You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
39 ""We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross.

Christ is the anointed one – anointed by the Holy Spirit.

John 1
32 John testified saying, "" I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him.
33 ""I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, "He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.'
34 ""I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God.''

Matt 3
The Baptism of Jesus

13 Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him.
14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?"
15 But Jesus answering said to him, "Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he permitted Him.
16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."

Here we see the timeline broken down into discrete segments - each following the other. 7 weeks (49 years) assigned to the rebuilding of Jerusalem - followed by 62 weeks making a total of 69 weeks (483 literal years) and the beginning of the mission of the "anointed one" the Messiah.

And so when Christ begins His ministry He announced that prophetic time had been fulfilled
Mark 1:15 - "The Kingdom of God is at hand – the time is fulfilled"

And so begins Christ's 3.5 year ministry in fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy.

So far the exact matching anti-type fulfillment in the NT is far more "explicit" in fulfilling the prophetic components of Daniel 9 - using this explicit and direct approach - than all other proposed solutions. None of them contain the direct references and language for Daniel 9 as we have seen here so far.

 

[BobRyan]

But what happens "after the 483 years" - "after the 69 weeks" - "after the 7 plus 62 weeks" of prophetic time?

Again - using the Explicit language of the text - instead of the suppositions so common today.

Dan 9:26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing,

After 7+62 weeks (After the 69 weeks) – comes the 70th week. In that Week the Messiah is cut off. Still many views depend on ignoring this key fact and reading “instead” that “at or near the END of the 69th week the Messiah is cut off”

26"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off (NASB)

26"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, (NKJV)

26And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, YLT

26And after the sixty-two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,(DARBY)

26And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off (ESV)

Isaiah sees this same crucifixion event.

Isaiah 53
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?

Instead of pointing us to an undefined gap of time as the event that follows "AFTER" the 69 weeks - Daniel's prophecy Continues on the SAME timeline - through the 490 years timeline. The 69 weeks takes us TO the advent of the Messiah and then After that 483 year boundary - comes the events of the Messiah in that last week - in the last 7 years in the week that follows the 69th week -- and what follows is the cross.

 

[BobRyan]

Dan 9:26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, AND the People of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

Certainly it is agreed that "After the 69th week" Christ was crucified - in fact He was crucified in the midst of the 70th week which also meant the sacrifices were at an end.

Notice here that there are TWO actors. The Messiah (who will be cut off) and the PEOPLE of the prince who is to come.

AND after that - (in fact long after that) - the city and the sanctuary were destroyed by the people of Rome - the Roman army (70 A. D) but that is another event AFTER the 69th week and After the cross and After even the 70th week.

But in the NT - it is the Jews THEMSELVES that bring about the destruction of the city according to Christ's own statements. The people of the Prince who is to come - Messiah the Prince - His people are the Jews and the NT declares that THEY were the "People" that would not let God spare the city.

In John 1 we are told that the "people of Messiah the Prince" are the Jews. "HE came unto His own and His own received Him not". Isaiah 9:6 foretells the same message of the Messiah as coming prince - Dan 9:25

In Mat 23:37-38 we are told that Christ came to save the city and the nation but the "people of the prince" would not have it.

Matt 23:
37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and YOU were unwilling.

When Christ weeps over the city He says - the city is destroyed because of a specific reason relating to the people of the prince..

Luke 19:41-44 "Because You did not know the time of your visitation".

Daniel uses the symbol for war "a flood" and declares that war and desolation are "Decreed". Indeed Moses did predict that just such a result would occur.

Dan 9:26 And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

The "house left desolate" Matt 23:38 is a direct fulfillment of what "is decreed" by God
1Kings 9:6-7, Jer 22:5, Micah 3:11-12, Ezek 11:21-23.

 

[BobRyan]

Dan 9:27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, NASB

(Shall make a covenant Stronger – firm?)

NKJV 27Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;

YLT – Youngs Literal Translation
27And He hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week,


”He hath strengthened a covenant” – this “HE” is a reference to vs 26. In vs 26 we have only two choices – it can be “Messiah the Prince” or it can be the other actor in vs 26 “The PEOPLE of the prince who is to come”. The fact that this is singular means that it can not be “THE PEOPLE of the prince who is to come”. So that leaves only “the MESSIAH” as the proper antecedent to the pronoun “he”.

Daniel is told that the period of "strengthening" the covenant last for the entire 7 years - for the entire 70th week that follows the 69th week. The historicist messianic view presented here promotes the full 7 year period as the time when the covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-32 (Hebrews 8:8-12) is being "Confirmed" and strengthened.

Christ says explicitly that the work of the Messiah is very much tied to the covenant

At the start of Christ’s ministry – at the sermon on the mount Christ provides the blessings (Matt 5:3-11) and the curses (Matt 7:13-27) and affirms His own Law already given (Matt 5:21-48) declaring them to be unbreakable – He adds even deeper “stronger” meaning to the ones already in place (Matt 6:19-7:11)

This is in direct parallel to Moses giving the Covenant to Israel with the blessing and curse and the Law of God defined.

(Notice that IN the words of the New Covenant - the Law of the New Covenant is the existing moral code defining sin and rebellion -- Christ the Creator’s moral law known and in force at the time of Jeremiah )

Jer 31
31 "" Behold, days are coming,'' declares the LORD, ""when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,'' declares the LORD.
33 ""But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,'' declares the LORD, "" I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 ""They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, "Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,'' declares the LORD, ""for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.''

35 Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:
36 "" If this fixed order departs From before Me,'' declares the LORD, ""Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever.''
37 Thus says the LORD, "" If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done,'' declares the LORD.

#1. God’s Law- is still in place even in the New Covenant – it is that same law “Written on the heart”.

#2. This covenant is in place while God’s promise to Israel is in place that He would forgive them for their rebellion and would not cast them off.

#3. Christ comes to strengthen that Covenant – already in place – with promises to Israel already in place – with the Jer 31 promise of the city of Jeremiah's day rebuilt – already in place in Christ's day.

Jer 31
38 ""Behold, days are coming,'' declares the LORD, ""when the city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate.
39 ""The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah.

Peter shows this strengthening of existing salvation covenants, laws and promises in his letter to the church. Peter declares that this is the subject of the OT – this the great

1 Peter 1
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven things into which angels long to look.

Peter declares salvation’s covenantal promises of the OT to be “made more sure” in the fact of “seeing Christ” ministry during the time of His first coming.

2 Peter 1
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, ""This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased''
18 and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.

Matt 26:28 "This is My blood of the Covenant", which is shed on behalf of Many for the forgiveness of sins"

1Cor 11:25 "This cup IS the New Covenant in My blood".

2Cor 3 tells us that it is the New Covenant alone that is "the ministry of righteousness" and "the covenant that gives life" .

Galatians 1:6-9 tells us that there has been only one gospel. And the message of the New Covenant alone is life, forgiveness and restored fellowship with God as we see it in Heb 8:8-12).

At the start of Christ's ministry we have the covenant "strengthened" in the form of the Long promised Messiah of the New Covenant finally arriving.

In the middle of "the week" of seven years we have the New Covenant "strengthened" in the form of the atoning sacrifice being made.

Then in the last 3.5 years we have it "strengthened" in the form of the full message of the atoning sacrifice of the Messiah preached in its fullness to the Hebrew nation church - the "Holy Nation" "Royal Priesthood" - "People for God's own possession".

At each step the covenant is strengthened until it reaches its complete zenith of proclamation to the Hebrews.

 

[BobRyan]

Dan 9:27 and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

The abominations begin with the rejection of the Hebrew nation of it's own king and Messiah and the curse pronounced on themselves "His blood be upon us and upon our children" Matt 27:24-25. And it completes with the work of the pagan Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem and making a "complete destruction" in 70 A.D.

This is a view endorsed by the NT apostles and rejected by NT Jews.

Acts 2:23
22 ""Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know
23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
24 "" But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

Acts 4:8-10
7 When they had placed them in the center, they began to inquire, ""By what power, or in what name, have you done this?''
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "" Rulers and elders of the people,
9 if we are on trial today for a benefit done to a sick man, as to how this man has been made well,
10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead by this name this man stands here before you in good health.

1 Thess 2
14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews,
15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men,
16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.

Acts 5:28-30
27 When they had brought them, they stood them before the Council. The high priest questioned them,
28 saying, "We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man's blood upon us."