Seventh Day Adventist Question

Dear Bob,
Please tell me how it came about you arrived at a different interpretation of Gal.4:10 than that of your Church?
Then please tell me how it is received by your fellow-believers - your Church, I mean.
What is your feeling and experience of the matter between you and your Church that centainly had to have developed?

Then do compare the present subject - of your Church-dogma of an 'Investigative Judgement'.
What will come of this?
I can only pray God for guidance.

 

Have you been talking with yourself again GE? How did you spin this around to Gal 4:10??

 

I love it when you just quote "you" to make your case rather than turning to what that Bible actually says.

It says a lot about "you" but nothing about what the Bible teaches.

Why do you do that so much?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Again we have "pure GE" but no scripture in context AT ALL!

So having seen your pontification of what you WISH had been written in the text - lets go READ IT - for a change.

As we READ THE TEXT - we see NONE of your own pontification IN THE TEXT GE!

It is because of THIS that you never actually QUOTE the text and SHOW IT saying anything like what you "wished" had been written there.

The more you are encouraged to state your views the LESS Bible that you reference because it does not actually SAY what you have posted.

READ your own posts - SEE how FAR they are from scripture?

In Christ,

Bob

 

There is one more 'good' thing about this present discussion, Bob, between you and me. You see, I intend to publish it in book-form and in cyber-space, as an illustration of SDA-thinking (or non-thinking) regarding the Seventh Day Sabbath. This thread initiated the relevance between the 'investigative judgement' and God's unfinished works through and in Christ, so that God cannot yet find His rest on the Seventh Day, but must first complete what Jesus had left uncompleted and could only start to finish after 1844. That's why the SDA's cannot accept Jesus rose from the dead "In the Sabbath's fulness" - besides of course Mrs White said He rose on the Sunday.

 

I asked Ascund if I may post his post on this thread. He has not given me permission to. I am nevertheless going to do it without his permission - I don't think he will mind.

Originally posted by ascund:
Hey BobRyan

...
You need a medal of some sort for some TEN THOUSAND POSTS with eyes blinded to the truth and fists clenched around a Christ-denying human-centered self-righteous theology.

Congrats!
Lloyd

 

Said Bob Ryan,

"So having seen your pontification of what you WISH had been written in the text - lets go READ IT - for a change.
quote:
Hebrews 8:5
They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.""

You use another 'Version' - a false prophet-version. It says everything the one you at first used, says not!
It says, "They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven." Your initial Translation said "... of heavenly things". The disagreement is glaring - and you just love it!
The Translation says the Law prophesied what would happen in Jesus on earth - how He would come and make atonement. It could not show it forth properly - only in part - the death-part; therefore it is said to be a shadow.
Your new 'version' is that what was shown or shadowed forth was in the heavens, that is to say, was not on earth - in other words, it could not have been what Jesus would come and do on earth - not the atonement He made, but anything else not true nor real - lie upon lie. Obviously one of those New Age Versions, that deny Christ. This is a perfect example of such denial of Him.

 

You, Bob Ryan, are the one who pontificates your own view - and that of your Church - its false doctrines.
You are the one who cannot read, because you cannot even see the disagreements between the two versions you have used - or don't want to see it.
I therefore repost my previous post, for you to READ this time - and then try answer me, please!


posted October 20, 2005 06:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BR: (Sept 24, 2005)
“The text does NOT say that MOSES WAS SHOWN the copy - the SHADOW -- rather it says that Moses MADE the copy - the SHADOW of heavenly things.
See how all the problems vanish when one accurately separates what GE SAID from what GOD said??”

GE:
“The text” referred to, is, Hebrews 8:
4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;
5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, SEE, He says, ""THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.
(Emphasis BR)

Bob Ryan:
“The text does NOT say that MOSES WAS SHOWN the copy - the SHADOW”

Hebrews 8:
“The pattern which was shown you”

Bob Ryan:
“it says that Moses MADE the copy”

Hebrews 8:
“Moses was to erect the tabernacle; Make ALL THINGS according to the pattern” (Emphasis GE)

Bob Ryan:
“Moses MADE ... the SHADOW of heavenly things”

Hebrews 8:
“priest(s) … serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things … according to the Law”

Bob Ryan:
“See how all the problems vanish when one accurately separates what GE SAID from what GOD said??”

GE: Me wonder ...

 

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Is this going to be a rant against the NASB??!!

I am just taking my same post - and offering it to you "again" GE.

Where in the world do you come up with that stuff?

Lets go back to THE TEXT and avoid your rambling for a few minutes.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Moses MADE the Copy according to Heb 8 after being SHOWN the pattern.

GE spins this to say "The PATTERN IS merely the COPY so Moses made a copy of a copy".

GE's wording is NOT in scripture at all!

See?

The Bible "says" --

GE if you are going to try to spin your own imagination into the text of Heb 8 -- I suggest you actually follow "the details" I have given in my post on Heb 8 "Closely" otherwise debunking your views once published will be even easier than it has been here.

You should at least give your followers a little something to go on. The value of these discussions can be very great indeed if you will kindly get BACK to the Text of scripture and stop posting rant after pointless textelss rant.

And "oh yes" did I quote that SAME version for Heb 8 on Sept 17??

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3369/4.html#000050

Why "yes I did"! How about that!

(That is to be expected since my own files/notes on Heb 8 were made years ago and then posted here).

In Christ,

Bob

 

So where did this conversation begin? It began with these sides opposed:

Bob Ryan said:
Stopping all of Christ's work in atonement at the Cross - denies His atoning work in Heb 7-10 and rejects the teaching on Atonement that God gives in Lev 16.

GE:
Jesus’ atonement ‘stopped’ - i.e., was perfected - in resurrection from the dead. Ephesians 1:19f

BR:
Please note the missing data to support that claim -
Eph 1:19, “and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might.”
#1. This says nothing about ignoring God's instruction on Atonement in Lev 16.
#2. It says nothing about the process of atonement of Lev 16 being “completed at the resurrection”.
#3. It says nothing about the ‘High Priestly work’ of Lev 16 being negated or completed PRIOR to Christ's High Priestly work EXPLICITLY identified in Heb 7-10 that is EXPLICITLY stated as STARTING after the resurrection.

Quote, originally posted by Gerhard Ebersöhn:
and Hebrews is ABSOLUTELY clear on this.

Notice the contradictory facts IN the text of Hebrews that would deny the statement above.
#1. Hebrews 7-8 DOES say Christ STARTED His High Priestly work ONLY AFTER going to heaven.
#2. Hebrews 8 DOES say that Christ WAS NOT functioning in High Priestly roles while on earth. (See vs 4).
#3. Hebrews 7-10 DOES point to Christ's work AFTER the Cross FOR US - JUST as the Lev 16 model given By God - predicts!!

Ignoring inconvenient details is not the way to build a doctrinal position.

Christ finished making a "Sacrifice for sin" at His death.
For this reason we see in 1John 2:2 that the "Atoning Sacrifice" (NIV) is COMPLETE at the cross.
JUST as Lev 16 SHOWS - that atoning sacrifice IS The core and basis of the Atonement process. But this gives us NO excuse to ignore and deny the role of the High Priestly work of Christ IN ATONEMENT as DESCRIBED in Lev 16 and EXPLICITLY identified in Heb 7-10!
So the point remains.

Quote, originally posted by Gerhard Ebersöhn:
EVERYTHING at and of Christ's Second Coming is DEPENDANT upon his FINISHED work in and through resurrection "from the dead", and its IMMEDIATE and INSEPARABLE "exaltation" to the right hand of God Almighty "in heavenly places".

This is the ‘common ground’ that both agree on. It can not be used as support for the ‘differences’.
BOTH views AGREE that the Atonement is FINISHED by the time of the 2nd coming because Christ's work as High Priest has ended at then AS WELL as the Atoning Sacrifice being completed at the Cross.
BOTH views accept that the Atoning Sacrifice is the core and foundation for the process of Atonement as God instructs in Lev 16.

Quote, originally posted by Gerhard Ebersöhn:
Atonement had been DONE; and it had been OBTAINED FULLY; and what is most wonderful about this, is that atonement “IS FINISHED” “TO-US-WARD”

Nice ‘waxing eloquent’ - poor exegesis, no text.


GE:
No further comment at this point in time, it’s too wearisome; and being Sabbath now, I wish to take a rest in the surety of a finished atonement “for evermore” – for me too, yes, in Christ, while once for all in resurrection from the dead.

Hey, Bob Ryan,
back after a good night's sleep.
“Quote, originally posted by Gerhard Ebersöhn:
EVERYTHING at and of Christ's Second Coming is DEPENDANT upon his FINISHED work in and through resurrection "from the dead", and His IMMEDIATE and INSEPARABLE "exaltation" to the right hand of God Almighty "in heavenly places".

This is the ‘common ground’ that both agree on. It can not be used as support for the ‘differences’.
BOTH views AGREE that the Atonement is FINISHED by the time of the 2nd coming because Christ's work as High Priest has ended at then AS WELL as the Atoning Sacrifice being completed at the Cross.
BOTH views accept that the Atoning Sacrifice is the core and foundation for the process of Atonement as God instructs in Lev 16.

GE:
How gravely are you mistaken!
There is NO ‘common ground’ that both ‘views’ agree on. “It” – i.e., this my statement here given and quoted by you, cannot be used as support for any agreement – it is the crux of all ‘differences’ between us, so here is it again, EVERYTHING at and of Christ's Second Coming is DEPENDANT upon his FINISHED work in and through resurrection:- “FROM THE DEAD”, and His IMMEDIATE and INSEPARABLE “exaltation”:- “FROM THE DEAD”, to the right hand of God Almighty “in heavenly places”.
That means a final atonement made and finished in and with and by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead – an atonement according to your ‘view’ not even begun then, and not even begun until eighteen hundred plus years after.

So, “both views” do not “agree that the Atonement is FINISHED by the time of the 2nd coming because Christ's work as High Priest has ended at then AS WELL as the Atoning Sacrifice being completed at the Cross” – for whatever this muddled statement may hold!
The thing cannot “(have ended)” at two points in time and in two places at once. The Atonement is FINISHED in Jesus’ High Priestly office “when God raised Him from the dead” (upon which the future “2nd coming” depends, because Christ ended and perfected His work as and of High Priest, “then”, “once for all” and “forever” as the Scriptures says. Christ’s “Atoning Sacrifice being completed at the Cross”, one may surely hold for having “STARTED” what God then “finished” “when He raised Christ from the dead”.

Even your assumption “BOTH views accept that the Atoning Sacrifice is the core and foundation for the process of Atonement as God instructs in Lev 16”, betrays your failure to see the disagreement between the two ‘views’ as well as priesthoods, namely that the types of the Levitical system could only foreshadow the death of the Lamb of God, and not His atoning life as “the core and foundation” of our Atonement. The types of the Levitical system could only foreshadow the death of the Lamb of God – the rest was up to faith. As God instructs in Lev 16, these are types only, for the effective atonement came only after, in that God made reconciliation in Christ in the resurrection of Him from the dead – a fact – the fact of atonement – Hebrews indicates by the many metaphors it uses for Jesus' resurrection.

With the first priesthood “the life is in the blood”; life was by faith, through the death of the sacrifice. Faith, by the TAKING of life admitted the sinner’s sin and guilt – it could “not make the comers thereunto perfect”.

But with the Priesthood of the “Better Covenant”, the Sacrifice “drew near” before the Throne of Mercy by His own blood and death. Therefore, with the Priesthood of the “Better Covenant”, atonement is in the LIFE! “I HAVE, the power to lay down MY, life, and, to take it up again.”
Ultimately, Jesus could not be High Priest if He was not High Priest ON EARTH, first.

The Law required it must be the high priest that shall make sacrifice – that shall ACQUIRE BLOOD by TAKING LIFE OUT, for to make an end of atonement in the most holy place.
That same Law required by faith it must be the High Priest of God that shall make Sacrifice of Himself – the High Priest of God that shall ACQUIRE LIFE by the TAKING IN THE BLOOD of His own, into the Most Holy Place for to make an End of Atonement at the right hand of the power of God-in-the-heavens, “which He worked when He raised Christ from the dead”.
Soli Deo Gloria!

Then the earthly priests made atonement by going in into the most holy (like into death) and by coming forth out of the most holy (as out of death) “having made an end of atonement” – they, still mortals, still sinners; but He, going in into death Most Holy being “made a sinner for us”, but coming forth out of death Most Holy of His into life, immortal, sinless, exalted and glorified “above every name that is named not only in this world, but also in that world which is yet to come”. “Coming out” exalted and glorified even above all names of His own whereby He was called before God raised Him from the dead. Thus, High Priest Humbled and Debased to Death going in, now High Priest Appointed and Exalted to Life coming forth – but never, not High Priest, never, not making an end of atonement, never, not bringing in all into accomplished end and will and pleasure of God.

Therefore, He cannot have “remained on earth” else He had to have been a failure in having “made an end of atonement” while on Earth an High Priest.
So insisting Jesus had not been High Priest while on earth He worked the salvation of His Own, is to deny at all He worked the salvation of His Own. It is to deny He is High Priest on the Throne of Majesty in the heavens, NOW!

 

</font>[/QUOTE]

Is this going to be a rant against the NASB??!!

I am just taking my same post - and offering it to you "again" GE.

Where in the world do you come up with that stuff?

Lets go back to THE TEXT and avoid your rambling for a few minutes.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]

 

lets go READ IT - for a change.

Bob Ryan:
“The text does NOT say that MOSES WAS SHOWN the copy - the SHADOW”

Hebrews 8:
“The pattern which was shown you”

Bob Ryan:
“it says that Moses MADE the copy”

Hebrews 8:
“Moses was to erect the tabernacle; Make ALL THINGS according to the pattern” (Emphasis GE)

Bob Ryan:
“Moses MADE ... the SHADOW of heavenly things”

Hebrews 8:
“priest(s) … serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things … according to the Law”

Bob Ryan:
“See how all the problems vanish when one accurately separates what GE SAID from what GOD said??”

lets go READ IT - for a change.

 

Bob Ryan says:
"Moses MADE the Copy according to Heb 8 after being SHOWN the pattern."

Then he has the audacity to allege,
"GE spins this to say "The PATTERN IS merely the COPY so Moses made a copy of a copy".

Man!

 

Bob Ryan,
"You (GE) should at least give your followers a little something to go on."

GE:
No sir! I, have no followers. Mine, is a confession of good old established Reformed Protestant Faith - which has me, as a follower of it, not ashamed to say, but thankfull and most humble!

 

Bob Ryan:
"That is to be expected since my own files/notes on Heb 8 were made years ago and then posted here."

That's your problem, dear Bob!

 

Come to reason GE - and respond to the unnanswered point please.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Try to stick with a point and prove it to be true.

After wading through your respost after repost - where you quote 'me' primarily -- I am trying to find your central point.

i found this from your requote at the top of this page 11 --

#1. I point out that the Atonement view I am showing from Lev 16 DOES base the atonement on the essential elements of Christ as the ATONING SACRIFICE (at the cross) and Christ as our HIGH PRIEST in heaven NOW appearing FOR US in heaven (see Heb 7-10).

I simply said that BOTH views are pointing to the sacrifice of Christ. And using THAT as a differentiator (on your part) is illogical, nonsensical "making stuff up" (how else can I say it)

#2. In your own response you do not quote Lev 16 or Hebrews - you quote "you" as you "make stuff up".

You gleefully insert "final atonement made and finished in and with and by the resurrection of Jesus Christ " which is a quote of NOTHING (in fact it is you quoting YOU) and this IS your central point!!???

I am just saying that your methods are not well reasoned.

In Christ,

Bob

 

First of all. there isnt any place in the Bible saying that God resting on the Seventh Day from creating everything has ANYTHING to do with having us "rest" from doing good works. That would be completely SILLY. And it is a human created idea, just as is the Sunday Sabbath... not in Scripture at all. Everywhere you look in the Bible it tells us to do good works, why would God creating everything and getting all done doing it have anything to do with now we are supposed to not worry about doing good works? Its absurd.

Mt:5:16: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Eph:2:10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

2Tm:3:17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Ti:2:7: In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

Ti:2:14: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Ti:3:8: This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Ti:3:14: And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Heb:10:24: And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

1Pt:2:12: Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Secondly, God COMMANDED His people to KEEP the Sabbath and to refrain from sin and to do good works in old testament times as well.

It makes no sense at all that you would act as if God makes the 10 commandments and then right in the middle of them, in the 4th commandment He tells us not to worry about even keeping them because He "did everything" for us already.

Its sad how people just create their own doctrines with no biblical support at all and then traditionally hand them down to others.

 

Quoting CladiaT,
"there isnt any place in the Bible saying that God resting on the Seventh Day from creating everything has ANYTHING to do with having us "rest" from doing good works. That would be completely SILLY."

Who ever said or maintained THAT?
I say, Jesus Christ - quote, Hb.4:4, "Finished all the works of GOD, on the Seventh Day" - which works included the work of God none less, of High Priestly atonement ON EARTH.
I'm not the one who negates God's Law of Commandments in Ordinance of Sabbath keeping inter alia. It is the one who dnies Christ's finishing of all the works of God who denies that!