Event vrs Process Justification

Hey Bob

Your statement:

needs help!

Sinners do choose to accept Christ. Sinners should also choose to persevere in the faith. In this we both agree. However, we disagree as to the reason and the conclusion.

The reason you choose to persevere is your hope in self-righteous obedience such that God will reward you with final justification. This is not biblical. The bilical lexical analysis shows that justification is a permanent event. I choose to persevere to reap the rewards of my faithfulness. Note that rewards and destiny are not the same - please do not confuse them.

The conclusion for us is quite different as well. For you, failure to persevere means eternal damnation, kicked out of God's family, or other such concepts never once mentioned in the Bible. For me, failure to persevere means that all my rewards will be burned up in the fires of judgment ala 1 Cor 3:11-15 YET I WILL STILL BE SAVED (see verse 15).

One of us can quote Bible. One of us uses fear and philosophy.

Lloyd

 

Hey Bob

Huh? </font>[/QUOTE]Common now. I didn't expect that I would have to explain your own theology to you as well!

But here goes. You embrace the Trentine view of salvation. Initial justification by faith; imparted grace to enable your to works of obedience; upon which you will be rewarded with final justification.

Lloyd

 

Hey

It takes much more effort to counteract a string of verses abused by context and violated by human-centered philosophy that it does for you to simply list them. Hence, I'll have to do them one at a time.

First, you note that no one doing unrighteousness will inherit the Kingdom of God. This is but a half truth - hence totally wrong.

What you have right is that our self-righteousness cannot be the basis of pleasing God. However, you are wrong to think that you could find it within yourself to please God by your conformity to Christ. Justification is not by your righteousness.

This leads into the point that you deny (perhaps unwittingly). Christ's righteousness alone pleases God. What you miss is that at the moment of salvific faith, God forgivess all sins and IMPUTES Christ's righteous to the believer. I am the very righteousness of Christ by God's active forensic declaration. I'm not worthy of such grace and mercy, but this is the biblical record. The lexical analysis easily identifies justification with God's active imputation. Romans 4 is the chief chapter.

Second, you miss verse 11. Justification and sanctification are a historic event. Did you not see that this happens IN CHIRST? There is no reference to self-righteous works of obedience!

You also must not have read my stuff on the three definitions of sanctificaiton and hence didn't realize how big of mistake your were making. It is a terrible way to divide God's Word by failing to comprehend the three definitions of sanctification: setting aside, consecreation and purification.

You also failed to take note of the tenses. Did you not notice that Paul no longer associates any of this unrighteousness to those who were justified and sanctified? The second half of your post demolishes the implications of the first part! It is because you do not comprehend the difference between self-righteousness and Christ's righteousness.

You would say "Yea! Yea!" to Christ's righteousness and turn right around and deny HIM by trying to add your own itsy bitsy bit. This is a sordid affront to Jesus' righteousness.

Bob - I'm ashamed of your post. It is not based on an honest investigation of God's Word. Instead, all you did was string a bunch of Bible verses together. They were yanked out of context, violated by your theological redefinitions and forced to support something that clearly isn't there.

With this kind of hermeneutic, anything is possible. More of fixing your errors later.
Grandkids just showed up.


Lloyd

 

Hey Bob

Are you serious here? You embrace a conditional salvation that depends on your good works, faithfulness and endurance. If you do these things you will be (or stay) saved.

There are only two views of salvation. One is a process; the other is an event. If it is an event, then it is historic.

Event justification is OSAS. Process justification denies Christ.

Lloyd

 

Hey Bob

Wrong Bob. It shows the difference between relying upon your own self-righteousness versus Christ's righteousness.

But such where you - - get it?
Lloyd

Had you chosen the honorable and direct approach you would have quoted vs 9 and then IN DETAIL tried to SHOW how the "BE NOT DECEIEVED" point (the CENTER of the entire chapter MOTIVATING right behavior) was somehow in harmony with your bogus position.

Instead you IGNORE the salient point and simply "pontificate".

As this post shows - we can all resort to such "tactics".

But where then is the dialog?

[/QUOTE]

 

Hey! There might be hope for you! Did you note that this is the theme starting with 1:18 and ending at 3:19? Self-righteousness will not please God for justification. Only Christ's perfect righteousness pleases God.

If you try to add your own dross to Christ, you preach heresy. So when you come to the last part, certainly you see that there is no successful human example - don't you??

3:19 clearly shows that EVERY mouth will be stopped. Who can claim to be successful when ISA 64:6 says that even our best deeds are filthy rags?

Bob - you do big wrong trying to present rags to God.

Jesus is the WAY; not you.
Lloyd

 

Hey Bob

This must be more quoting scripture out of context for you. Isn't this what you were so proud of a while back?

But quoting scripture out of context is no prize. The first unit shows that this is only a potential for all. If you choose your own self-righteousness, then you will be judged accordingly - - - and then sent to hell for not being perfect!

Context rules!
Lloyd

 

Hey BobRyan

Well, I see that you think these rewards are for justification. Wrong. Christ's judgment seat is for believers. Look at 1 Cor 3:11-15. The believer who builds on Christ with worthless works will have them all burned up AND YET STILL BE SAVED.

Bob - you must not confuse justification leading to destiny with sanctification leading to rewards. This is a big error.

Lloyd

 

Hey Bob

It appears as if you have forgotten the basic Bible building blocks.

Justification
__ God alone is active.
__ humans ares strictly passive.

Sanctification
__ God alone sets believers aside
__ Humans are active in purification.

So the recompensed for deeds in the both = BOTH the good AND the bad is but a half truth.

You've failed to identify that it belongs to sanctification. Once you figure that out, then one can see that recompensed is an aspect of rewards.

Do not try exegesis without those basic building blocks.
Lloyd

 

Hey Bob

Nice list of sanctification verses. Your every posts shows further ignorance of the distinction between justificaiton and sanctification.

Heb 6 - sanctification. It's a warning. Where is the word "lost"? I see the word "impossible" and "better." You fall all over those.

You do a good job demonstrating your confusion. Why don't you try something genuine - like one verse. But no - you wouldn't do that because you like to run from one sanctification verse to the next blissfully ignorant of your error.

Didn't you read the basic lexical building blocks?
Lloyd

 

Hey Bob

Time for your next lesson. The Greek Perfect Tense! “The Greek Perfect Tense denotes the present state resultant upon a past action” (Machen, New Testament Greek for Beginners, p187).

“The perfect tense is the tense of complete action. Its basal significance is the progress of an act or state to a point of culmination and the existence of its finished results. That is, it views action as a finished product. … It implies a process, but views that process as having reached its consummation and existing in a finished state” (Dana and Mantey, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p200).

We must notice that the Greek Perfect Tense has no implications that the continued action of a past result will cease. The English words that are used to translate the Greek Perfect in the following passages are underlined and bolded. These words carry the idea of a continued, completed, consummated, unending state.

“That which is born of the Spirit is spirit” John 3:6. This certifies that once one is born of the Spirit, then the results of this birth continue unendingly!

“A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven” John 3:27. This certifies that once God has given salvation, then the results of this giving continue unendingly!

“he who hears my word and believes in Him who sent me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life” John 5:24. This verifies that the act of passing from death to life continues unendingly!

“And we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ” John 6:69. This confirms that the position of believing continues for ever!

“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand” John 10:39. This corroborates the result of being given by God continues eternally!

So just before Jesus died he cried out “It is finished!” John 19:30. This shows that Christ’s accomplishments on the cross endure forever and they don’t need to be lost and reapplied.

“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God” Romans 5:1,2. This verifies that our access to God endures unendingly. It also confirms that our standing in grace continues eternally!

“For he who has died has been freed [justified] from sin” Romans 6:7. This validates that our freedom from sin (justification) continues without abatement!

“To the church of God which is at Corinth to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus” 1 Corinthians 1:2. This shows that sanctification never ceases!

“But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)” Ephesians 2:4,5. This declares that the result of salvation is eternally unending!

“For by grace you have been saved through faith” Ephesians 2:8. This emphasizes that salvation is once for all!

“That Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints . . .” Ephesians 3:17. This shows that our salvation is eternally rooted and grounded!

“Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies . . .” Colossians 3:12. This shows that our being loved by God will continue unendingly!

“This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works” Titus 3:8. The ace of believing continues on forever.

“By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” Hebrews 10:10. This verse has two ways of emphasizing eternal security. First, the Greek perfect affirms that our sanctification is an eternal process. Second, the author ends the verse with a “once for all” phrase to further underscore the certainty of the statement.

“to an inheritance incorruptible an undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you” 1 Peter 1:4. Not only does God make the reservation, but he never cancels it either!

“having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever” 1 Peter 1:23. The act of being born again continues unendingly!

“To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ” Jude 2. This insists that our sanctification continues unendingly and that we are preserved in Christ unfalteringly forever!


B. The double negative is used to highlight or underscore the impossibility of the stated action occurring. “The combination of the double negative occurs 96 times. With the light that the papyri have thrown upon this doubling of the negatives we can now say unreservedly that the negatives were doubled for the purpose of stating denials or prohibitions emphatically. … people used the doubling of negatives for making categorical and emphatic denials” Dana & Mantey, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p266,267.

“I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never [never] hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never [never] thirst” John 6:35.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never [never] perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand” John 10:28.

“And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never [never] die” John 11:36.

“For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no [no] more” Hebrews 8:12.

For Jesus himself said, “I will never [never] leave you nor [never] forsake you” Hebrews 13:5.

Lloyd