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Event vrs Process Justification

ascund

New Member
Hey Bob

Your statement:

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Just as the sinner did something in CHOOSING to accept Christ for justification so ALSO the sinner must Persevere - must choose to DO something to engage in Sanctification.
needs help!

Sinners do choose to accept Christ. Sinners should also choose to persevere in the faith. In this we both agree. However, we disagree as to the reason and the conclusion.

The reason you choose to persevere is your hope in self-righteous obedience such that God will reward you with final justification. This is not biblical. The bilical lexical analysis shows that justification is a permanent event. I choose to persevere to reap the rewards of my faithfulness. Note that rewards and destiny are not the same - please do not confuse them.

The conclusion for us is quite different as well. For you, failure to persevere means eternal damnation, kicked out of God's family, or other such concepts never once mentioned in the Bible. For me, failure to persevere means that all my rewards will be burned up in the fires of judgment ala 1 Cor 3:11-15 YET I WILL STILL BE SAVED (see verse 15).

One of us can quote Bible. One of us uses fear and philosophy.

Lloyd
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
In Hebrews 12 we are told to "pursue sanctification".

Here are other things to "pursue"

Romans 14:19
So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.

1 Corinthians 14:1
Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

This is not describing "a passive observer".

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by ascund:

The reason you choose to persevere is your hope in self-righteous obedience such that God will reward you with final justification.
Huh?
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Lloyd --

For you, failure to persevere means eternal damnation, kicked out of God's family, or other such concepts never once mentioned in the Bible.
Tell me something -

Did you remove Matt 18 from "your" Bible?

Did you remove "1 Cor 9" from "your" Bible?

Did you remove ALL the texts that talk about endurance from "your" Bible?

Did you find a bunch of texts that say "Failure to persevere is life everlasting????"

Did you find a bunch of texts saying that "failure to pursue sanctification is eternal life" in Heb 12?

Did you find "eternal life promised" in HEb 6 for those that fall back?

What about "eternal life" For those in Gal 5 that "Fall from grace".

How in the world do you "turn a blind eye" to all of scripture on the subject of perseverance and endurance AND THEN argue that scripture promises "ETERNAL LIFE to those that FAIL TO Persevere"??!!

Wouldn't it be more "correct" to just admit that you "speculate" that scripture WOULD HAVE said that if it had just focused a little more on your own POV? So FAILING that - you simply make it up -- pure conjecture taken from texts that say "no such thing"??

Because I am sure that IF you HAD such a text that SAID "Failure to persevere is life eternal" you would have quoted it lonnnnnnnnnng time ago.

(And I would have read it a long time ago).

One of us can quotes Bible. One of us runs from it - fears the "details" and uses fear conjecture, speculation and blue-sky philosophy.

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Speaking of the many opportunities for LLoyd to "run and hide' when scripture is quoted -- here's some more...

Lloyd promises that "failure to persevere" is eternal life!

By "contrast" The BIBLE warns us about just such a deception.


Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.

Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it

Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.


Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY
from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
and of which I Paul was made a minister.


Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to 'he who overcomes'.

Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the
Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."

Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one
who has endured to the end who will be saved."


2Peter 1:10-11
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true
knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as
you practice these things, you will never stumble;

11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
Stated that REAL Examples of such failure exist.


2Peter 2:20-22

18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality,
those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it,
to turn away from the holy commandment
handed on to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "" A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,'' and,
""A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.''

Heb 6:4-8
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been
made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify
to themselves the Son of God
and put Him to open same.
7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also
tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
And then there is always “Forgiveness revoked”!!
Matt 18
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you
, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''
These texts do not describe a defacto “drift into heaven”.

But rather a “pressing on” as in Phil 3 and a “buffeting” as in 1Cor 9.

1Cor 9
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified
The OSAS doctrine guts the very core of the “motivation” we see in 1Cor 9 as Paul EXPLICITLY says “LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified”.

OSAS goes after that point – directly, explicitly and without remorse.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Some have argued that the saints are as depraved and bound to slavery to sin as any others so that all the arguments in scripture for endurance and faithfulness are just so much hot air. But is the Word of God really endorsing the idea of the “Wicked witness of the righteous’ or the “unright righteous” or the “enslaved saints” doomed to sin and rebellion? Does it really allow us to be “Self-deceived until the day we die” living in slavery to sin?

Others argue that “failure to persevere means eternal life” for the saints.

Question: IS that merely deception on the part of some proponents of “OSAS”? And in that case “should” we allow ourselves to “be deceived”??

1Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.
God is not calling us “TO BE” deceived on this point – but rather “NOT to be DECEIVED”.

See?

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in
heaven.
Rom 8
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

James 2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a
pure heart fervently:

1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.


Romans 2

Notice the "text" perhaps for the first time – as it speaks about our IMPARTIAL God whose process of judging in the matter of salvation (and IN the context of the call to repentance (Rom 2:4)) "results" in some saved and some lost JUST as He describes IN Romans 2...

Rom 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:


7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
Let "the text" speak.

#1. Romans 2 provides BOTH successful and failing cases for BOTH Jews and Gentiles.

#2. Romans 2 SAYS they are ALL judged based on DEEDS and the RESULT of that impartial judgment is that SOME fail and some succeed.

This is devastating to Calvinism.

#3. Romans 3 is IN the GOSPEL CONTEXT of the kindness and goodness of God - and the call to repentance.

This means that WITHIN the Gospel scenario there IS impartial JUDGMENT that results in SOME having eternal life and some not.

#4. Paul declares that the JUDGMENT is "according to my gospel". The judgment he speaks of is part of the Gospe.

#5. The Judgment results in "JUSTIFICATION" according to the text. It does not simply happen in a Gospel VOID where ALL those judged are condemned because of course - ALL are sinners.

#6. The DEEDS mentioned are the same FRUITs of MAtt 7 that Christ shows as "determining" outcoming.

#7 The ENTIRE thing is said to occur in an impartial manner and is GUARANTEED to be impartial because GOD HIMSELF is impartial when it comes to salvation according to Rom 2:11

The "obvious" point in both Romans 2 and Matt 7 is that it is NOT a scenario where God "arbitrarily selects out from among the doomed a few to FAVOR".

Both texts are going out of their way to START within the context of the Gospel and to SHOW that in that context of the goodness of God as our Father - and the call to repentance and forgiveness - WE HAVE a judgment of "deeds" where some fail and some pass.

It is NOT the more "general" case of Romans 3 where ALL are condemned WITHOUT the need for a "future judgment" since ALL have sinned.

Why treat ALL in this way?

ANSWER: Because "God is not partial"??


How then does Calvinism accept this chapter?

ANSWER: It does not.
=======================================================================================================


Rom2:
12 for all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
Interesting that there are two different systems – one to address those who HAVE scripture and one to address those who do not. But BOTH having the potential outcome of loss or salvation. To this point Paul presents BOTH failing cases AND successful cases.

Paul appears to be in harmony with Christ here as Christ said that those who knew there master's will and did it not receive many lashes but those that did not know the master's will and yet did deeds worthy of punishment - receive few
Luke 12:
47“and that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,
48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
Notice that Christ does not assume everyone goes to hell (both those who KNEW the Bible and those who did not) anymore than Paul would make such an absurd statement in Romans 2. Rather the chapter is in context with the call for repentance as noted at the start.


Romans2:
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
Having shown us both the group that in the future obtain immortality and the group that in the future suffer the wrath after the future judgment of God - Paul now sums it up - the justification that is future will be for the doers and not for those who are proven to be merely hearers. The test is the same Matt 7 indicator “NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord – but he who DOES” for the good tree produces good fruit.

This is not a fact that Paul then goes on to deny in the rest of the book of Romans. Rather he continues to strongly endorse it (note particularly Romans 6). John McAarthur did an excellent series on this point - titled "the power over sin".

Paul now continues with the succeeding case! Yes that is right! His argument works and he gives a very simple proving case.
Romans2:
14for when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a Law to themselves,
15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
There actually were Gentiles that really did not have the Law of God! That is very important to understand. And there were those who did instinctively the things of the Law showing it was written on their heart!! Wow! So that means Paul really was right!

John Macarthur. "God holds all men responsible for their refusal to acknowledge what He has shown them of Himself in His creation. Even those who have NEVER HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO HEAR THE GOSPEL have received a clear witness about the existence and character of God- and have suppressed it. If a person will respond to the revelation he has, even if it is solely natural revelation, God will provide some means for that person to hear the gospel." Macarthur Study Bible pg. 1693
Even more interesting is the fact that this terminology regarding "the Law written on the heart" is new covenant terminology. Heb 8, 2Cor 3!!! Yes indeed we have the succeeding case as well as the failing case made in this non-myopic chapter of God's infallible word.

Rom 2
:16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

25 for indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 so if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
wow! Apparently the infallible word is telling us that it is gospel - good news that a future judgment, where the Gentiles are shown to be doers of the Law and not merely hearers only, is coming. A future Christ centered judgment!! What a Christ-centered gospel Paul has in this chapter!!

2Cor 5:10
9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ
, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
[/quote]
 

ascund

New Member
Hey Bob

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ascund:

The reason you choose to persevere is your hope in self-righteous obedience such that God will reward you with final justification.
Huh? </font>[/QUOTE]Common now. I didn't expect that I would have to explain your own theology to you as well!

But here goes. You embrace the Trentine view of salvation. Initial justification by faith; imparted grace to enable your to works of obedience; upon which you will be rewarded with final justification.

Lloyd
 

ascund

New Member
Hey

It takes much more effort to counteract a string of verses abused by context and violated by human-centered philosophy that it does for you to simply list them. Hence, I'll have to do them one at a time.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
1Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.

God is not calling us “TO BE” deceived on this point – but rather “NOT to be DECEIVED”.
First, you note that no one doing unrighteousness will inherit the Kingdom of God. This is but a half truth - hence totally wrong.

What you have right is that our self-righteousness cannot be the basis of pleasing God. However, you are wrong to think that you could find it within yourself to please God by your conformity to Christ. Justification is not by your righteousness.

This leads into the point that you deny (perhaps unwittingly). Christ's righteousness alone pleases God. What you miss is that at the moment of salvific faith, God forgivess all sins and IMPUTES Christ's righteous to the believer. I am the very righteousness of Christ by God's active forensic declaration. I'm not worthy of such grace and mercy, but this is the biblical record. The lexical analysis easily identifies justification with God's active imputation. Romans 4 is the chief chapter.

Second, you miss verse 11. Justification and sanctification are a historic event. Did you not see that this happens IN CHIRST? There is no reference to self-righteous works of obedience!

You also must not have read my stuff on the three definitions of sanctificaiton and hence didn't realize how big of mistake your were making. It is a terrible way to divide God's Word by failing to comprehend the three definitions of sanctification: setting aside, consecreation and purification.

You also failed to take note of the tenses. Did you not notice that Paul no longer associates any of this unrighteousness to those who were justified and sanctified? The second half of your post demolishes the implications of the first part! It is because you do not comprehend the difference between self-righteousness and Christ's righteousness.

You would say "Yea! Yea!" to Christ's righteousness and turn right around and deny HIM by trying to add your own itsy bitsy bit. This is a sordid affront to Jesus' righteousness.

Bob - I'm ashamed of your post. It is not based on an honest investigation of God's Word. Instead, all you did was string a bunch of Bible verses together. They were yanked out of context, violated by your theological redefinitions and forced to support something that clearly isn't there.

With this kind of hermeneutic, anything is possible. More of fixing your errors later.
Grandkids just showed up.


Lloyd
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
#1. Once again you don't quote scripture -- you merely complain that it IS quoted.

#2. Once again you duck the salient point of the text that SHOWS that those who DECEIVE themselves into thinking that FAILURE to persevere -- (i.e. ENGAGING in the sins of the past) will "make no difference" will miss the big "ending" promised.

Had you chosen the honorable and direct approach you would have quoted vs 9 and then IN DETAIL tried to SHOW how the "BE NOT DECEIEVED" point (the CENTER of the entire chapter MOTIVATING right behavior) was somehow in harmony with your bogus position.

Instead you IGNORE the salient point and simply "pontificate".

As this post shows - we can all resort to such "tactics".

But where then is the dialog?

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by ascund:
But here goes. You embrace the Trentine view of salvation. Initial justification by faith; imparted grace to enable your to works of obedience; upon which you will be rewarded with final justification.
What do you mean by "final justification"??
 

ascund

New Member
Hey Bob

Are you serious here? You embrace a conditional salvation that depends on your good works, faithfulness and endurance. If you do these things you will be (or stay) saved.

There are only two views of salvation. One is a process; the other is an event. If it is an event, then it is historic.

Event justification is OSAS. Process justification denies Christ.

Lloyd
 

ascund

New Member
Hey Bob

Originally posted by BobRyan:
#1. Once again you don't quote scripture -- you merely complain that it IS quoted.[/quote} Wrong. I used your quote. Don't you even read your own stuff?
Originally posted by BobRyan:
#2. Once again you duck the salient point of the text that SHOWS that those who DECEIVE themselves into thinking that FAILURE to persevere -- (i.e. ENGAGING in the sins of the past) will "make no difference" will miss the big "ending" promised.
Wrong Bob. It shows the difference between relying upon your own self-righteousness versus Christ's righteousness.

But such where you - - get it?
Lloyd

Had you chosen the honorable and direct approach you would have quoted vs 9 and then IN DETAIL tried to SHOW how the "BE NOT DECEIEVED" point (the CENTER of the entire chapter MOTIVATING right behavior) was somehow in harmony with your bogus position.

Instead you IGNORE the salient point and simply "pontificate".

As this post shows - we can all resort to such "tactics".

But where then is the dialog?

[/QUOTE]
 

ascund

New Member
Originally posted by BobRyan:
Rom2:
12 for all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

Interesting that there are two different systems – one to address those who HAVE scripture and one to address those who do not

But BOTH having the potential outcome of loss or salvation. To this point Paul presents BOTH failing cases AND successful cases.
Hey! There might be hope for you! Did you note that this is the theme starting with 1:18 and ending at 3:19? Self-righteousness will not please God for justification. Only Christ's perfect righteousness pleases God.

If you try to add your own dross to Christ, you preach heresy. So when you come to the last part, certainly you see that there is no successful human example - don't you??

3:19 clearly shows that EVERY mouth will be stopped. Who can claim to be successful when ISA 64:6 says that even our best deeds are filthy rags?

Bob - you do big wrong trying to present rags to God.

Jesus is the WAY; not you.
Lloyd
 

ascund

New Member
Hey Bob

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Romans2:13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
This must be more quoting scripture out of context for you. Isn't this what you were so proud of a while back?

But quoting scripture out of context is no prize. The first unit shows that this is only a potential for all. If you choose your own self-righteousness, then you will be judged accordingly - - - and then sent to hell for not being perfect!

Context rules!
Lloyd
 

ascund

New Member
Hey BobRyan

2Cor 5:10
9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
Well, I see that you think these rewards are for justification. Wrong. Christ's judgment seat is for believers. Look at 1 Cor 3:11-15. The believer who builds on Christ with worthless works will have them all burned up AND YET STILL BE SAVED.

Bob - you must not confuse justification leading to destiny with sanctification leading to rewards. This is a big error.

Lloyd
 

ascund

New Member
Hey Bob

It appears as if you have forgotten the basic Bible building blocks.

Justification
__ God alone is active.
__ humans ares strictly passive.

Sanctification
__ God alone sets believers aside
__ Humans are active in purification.

So the recompensed for deeds in the both = BOTH the good AND the bad is but a half truth.

You've failed to identify that it belongs to sanctification. Once you figure that out, then one can see that recompensed is an aspect of rewards.

Do not try exegesis without those basic building blocks.
Lloyd
 

ascund

New Member
Hey Bob

Nice list of sanctification verses. Your every posts shows further ignorance of the distinction between justificaiton and sanctification.

Heb 6 - sanctification. It's a warning. Where is the word "lost"? I see the word "impossible" and "better." You fall all over those.

You do a good job demonstrating your confusion. Why don't you try something genuine - like one verse. But no - you wouldn't do that because you like to run from one sanctification verse to the next blissfully ignorant of your error.

Didn't you read the basic lexical building blocks?
Lloyd
 

ascund

New Member
Hey Bob

Time for your next lesson. The Greek Perfect Tense! “The Greek Perfect Tense denotes the present state resultant upon a past action” (Machen, New Testament Greek for Beginners, p187).

“The perfect tense is the tense of complete action. Its basal significance is the progress of an act or state to a point of culmination and the existence of its finished results. That is, it views action as a finished product. … It implies a process, but views that process as having reached its consummation and existing in a finished state” (Dana and Mantey, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p200).

We must notice that the Greek Perfect Tense has no implications that the continued action of a past result will cease. The English words that are used to translate the Greek Perfect in the following passages are underlined and bolded. These words carry the idea of a continued, completed, consummated, unending state.

“That which is born of the Spirit is spirit” John 3:6. This certifies that once one is born of the Spirit, then the results of this birth continue unendingly!

“A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven” John 3:27. This certifies that once God has given salvation, then the results of this giving continue unendingly!

“he who hears my word and believes in Him who sent me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life” John 5:24. This verifies that the act of passing from death to life continues unendingly!

“And we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ” John 6:69. This confirms that the position of believing continues for ever!

“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand” John 10:39. This corroborates the result of being given by God continues eternally!

So just before Jesus died he cried out “It is finished!” John 19:30. This shows that Christ’s accomplishments on the cross endure forever and they don’t need to be lost and reapplied.

“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God” Romans 5:1,2. This verifies that our access to God endures unendingly. It also confirms that our standing in grace continues eternally!

“For he who has died has been freed [justified] from sin” Romans 6:7. This validates that our freedom from sin (justification) continues without abatement!

“To the church of God which is at Corinth to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus” 1 Corinthians 1:2. This shows that sanctification never ceases!

“But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)” Ephesians 2:4,5. This declares that the result of salvation is eternally unending!

“For by grace you have been saved through faith” Ephesians 2:8. This emphasizes that salvation is once for all!

“That Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints . . .” Ephesians 3:17. This shows that our salvation is eternally rooted and grounded!

“Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies . . .” Colossians 3:12. This shows that our being loved by God will continue unendingly!

“This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works” Titus 3:8. The ace of believing continues on forever.

“By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” Hebrews 10:10. This verse has two ways of emphasizing eternal security. First, the Greek perfect affirms that our sanctification is an eternal process. Second, the author ends the verse with a “once for all” phrase to further underscore the certainty of the statement.

“to an inheritance incorruptible an undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you” 1 Peter 1:4. Not only does God make the reservation, but he never cancels it either!

“having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever” 1 Peter 1:23. The act of being born again continues unendingly!

“To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ” Jude 2. This insists that our sanctification continues unendingly and that we are preserved in Christ unfalteringly forever!


B. The double negative is used to highlight or underscore the impossibility of the stated action occurring. “The combination of the double negative occurs 96 times. With the light that the papyri have thrown upon this doubling of the negatives we can now say unreservedly that the negatives were doubled for the purpose of stating denials or prohibitions emphatically. … people used the doubling of negatives for making categorical and emphatic denials” Dana & Mantey, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p266,267.

“I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never [never] hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never [never] thirst” John 6:35.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never [never] perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand” John 10:28.

“And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never [never] die” John 11:36.

“For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no [no] more” Hebrews 8:12.

For Jesus himself said, “I will never [never] leave you nor [never] forsake you” Hebrews 13:5.

Lloyd
 
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