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Event vrs Process Justification
- Thread starter ascund
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Vs 4 shows us that the mercy - kindness - grace leads us to repent. This chapter starts with the Gospel basics of God's offer to grant repentance and that all need to repent.
Note: The Context for Romans 2 is STARTING with judgment, AND of the mercy of God that leads to repentance.
Let's continue letting the scripture speak for itself;
He speaks of this again in 2Cor 5 talking about future judgment and judged based on deeds “whether they be good or evil”.
Notice that in these first 6 verses we have an Arminian-style motivation - not to engage in man's faulty judgment of others. And there is no sense or expectation that this sin is not to stop or just to continue because we are totally depraved. Rather the argument is to stop.
Romans 2 - if this chapter is only about the failing case, only about the wrath of God - then we will not find success, mercy, reward but only condemnation, wrath, punishment. Let's now let the text reveal which way it will go.
Some have supposed that a “judgment” that is impartial as Paul points to in vs 6 and 11 must “only have failing cases”. But Paul shows in vs 7 that such is not the case. The “Good News” does not require God to arbitrarily be “partial to the FEW of Matt 7” as some have supposed. Rather it allows for God to be “impartial” and to SAVE mankind on that basis!
You must be on the right path to be approved in perseveringly staying on the right path. It is obvious I know, but worth noting.
So God has now contrasted the good and the wicked, those who persevere on the right path and those who are not even on it.
We already know that in the judgment there are two classes - those that receive immortality and those that do not. If it is not clear to us by now that this chapter is dealing with both classes - we need to engage in some remedial reading comprehension.
But basic to Paul’s solution is the affirmation that God is NOT partial when it comes to the Gospel – when it comes to Salvation. That means that He is NOT favoring the “few” of Matt 7 over the “many” so that He can save the “Few”. Rather – impartiality demands that ALL be given the same salvation-sequence. ALL have the Holy Spirit convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment (John 16:8) and ALL have the Drawing of God (John 12:32) and ALL have the Lord Jesus Christ standing at the door and knocking – and ALL have the SAME promise of the New Covenant that “changes the TREE itself” Matt 7 and writes the Law of God on the heart (Heb 8).
Rather than simply “favoring some over others” the system defined above is “impartial” as God HIMSELF is “Impartial”. This Gospel truth was a huge problem for the Jews and is a big problem for Calvinism.
No Partiality – for Christians –
God shows no partiality between unsaved people. (Unsaved Jews vs Unsaved Gentiles)
Acts 10:34
[ Gentiles Hear Good News ] Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
God shows no partiality in determining who goes to heaven – who is justified.
Notice the "text" perhaps for the first time – as it speaks about our IMPARTIAL God whose process of judging in the matter of salvation (and IN the context of the call to repentance (Rom 2:4)) "results" in some saved and some lost JUST as He describes IN Romans 2...
#1. Romans 2 provides BOTH successful and failing cases for BOTH Jews and Gentiles.
#2. Romans 2 SAYS they are ALL judged based on DEEDS and the RESULT of that impartial judgment is that SOME fail and some succeed.
This is devastating to Calvinism.
#3. Romans 3 is IN the GOSPEL CONTEXT of the kindness and goodness of God - and the call to repentance.
This means that WITHIN the Gospel scenario there IS impartial JUDGMENT that results in SOME having eternal life and some not.
#4. Paul declares that the JUDGMENT is "according to my gospel". The judgment he speaks of is part of the Gospe.
#5. The Judgment results in "JUSTIFICATION" according to the text. It does not simply happen in a Gospel VOID where ALL those judged are condemned because of course - ALL are sinners.
#6. The DEEDS mentioned are the same FRUITs of MAtt 7 that Christ shows as "determining" outcoming.
#7 The ENTIRE thing is said to occur in an impartial manner and is GUARANTEED to be impartial because GOD HIMSELF is impartial when it comes to salvation according to Rom 2:11
The "obvious" point in both Romans 2 and Matt 7 is that it is NOT a scenario where God "arbitrarily selects out from among the doomed a few to FAVOR".
Both texts are going out of their way to START within the context of the Gospel and to SHOW that in that context of the goodness of God as our Father - and the call to repentance and forgiveness - WE HAVE a judgment of "deeds" where some fail and some pass.
It is NOT the more "general" case of Romans 3 where ALL are condemned WITHOUT the need for a "future judgment" since ALL have sinned.
Why treat ALL in this way?
ANSWER: Because "God is not partial"??
How then does Calvinism accept this chapter?
ANSWER: It does not.
Note: The Context for Romans 2 is STARTING with judgment, AND of the mercy of God that leads to repentance.
Let's continue letting the scripture speak for itself;
Paul is adamant that there is a future judgment “according to deeds”. Paul here identifies the “impartial” basis of God’s judgment. Instead of His simply “arbitrarily selecting” some to favor and others to ignore – ALL are judged according to deeds IN the context of the “call to repentance” of vs 4.
He speaks of this again in 2Cor 5 talking about future judgment and judged based on deeds “whether they be good or evil”.
Notice that in these first 6 verses we have an Arminian-style motivation - not to engage in man's faulty judgment of others. And there is no sense or expectation that this sin is not to stop or just to continue because we are totally depraved. Rather the argument is to stop.
Romans 2 - if this chapter is only about the failing case, only about the wrath of God - then we will not find success, mercy, reward but only condemnation, wrath, punishment. Let's now let the text reveal which way it will go.
Here is the “succeeding case” explicitly listed by Paul. And it is in the context of God - leading to repentance. We also have the people of God - persevering, doing good and seeking glory and honor. What is the result? The text says immortality and eternal life.
Some have supposed that a “judgment” that is impartial as Paul points to in vs 6 and 11 must “only have failing cases”. But Paul shows in vs 7 that such is not the case. The “Good News” does not require God to arbitrarily be “partial to the FEW of Matt 7” as some have supposed. Rather it allows for God to be “impartial” and to SAVE mankind on that basis!
The “Failing case”: Clearly a contrast is being introduced "but to those who are selfish" - contrasted with what? Those who repent, seek eternal glory and honor and persevere. Persevere in what?
You must be on the right path to be approved in perseveringly staying on the right path. It is obvious I know, but worth noting.
So God has now contrasted the good and the wicked, those who persevere on the right path and those who are not even on it.
We already know that in the judgment there are two classes - those that receive immortality and those that do not. If it is not clear to us by now that this chapter is dealing with both classes - we need to engage in some remedial reading comprehension.
At this point Paul seems to ask that we "be not deceived" into thinking that some can do evil but find "preferred treatment" because God will “favor the few over the many”. He does not let us suppose that others are lost for doing evil while the “favored” ones do evil and go to heaven. Rather Paul argues that God has called all to repentance and all must comply - there will be no preferred treatment based on status (or magic phrase) allowing some of the rebels in.
But basic to Paul’s solution is the affirmation that God is NOT partial when it comes to the Gospel – when it comes to Salvation. That means that He is NOT favoring the “few” of Matt 7 over the “many” so that He can save the “Few”. Rather – impartiality demands that ALL be given the same salvation-sequence. ALL have the Holy Spirit convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment (John 16:8) and ALL have the Drawing of God (John 12:32) and ALL have the Lord Jesus Christ standing at the door and knocking – and ALL have the SAME promise of the New Covenant that “changes the TREE itself” Matt 7 and writes the Law of God on the heart (Heb 8).
Rather than simply “favoring some over others” the system defined above is “impartial” as God HIMSELF is “Impartial”. This Gospel truth was a huge problem for the Jews and is a big problem for Calvinism.
No Partiality – for Christians –
God shows no partiality between unsaved people. (Unsaved Jews vs Unsaved Gentiles)
Acts 10:34
[ Gentiles Hear Good News ] Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
God shows no partiality in determining who goes to heaven – who is justified.
Many are reading that section of Romans 2:1-11 above for the first time – with eyes open to details.
Notice the "text" perhaps for the first time – as it speaks about our IMPARTIAL God whose process of judging in the matter of salvation (and IN the context of the call to repentance (Rom 2:4)) "results" in some saved and some lost JUST as He describes IN Romans 2...
Let "the text" speak.
#1. Romans 2 provides BOTH successful and failing cases for BOTH Jews and Gentiles.
#2. Romans 2 SAYS they are ALL judged based on DEEDS and the RESULT of that impartial judgment is that SOME fail and some succeed.
This is devastating to Calvinism.
#3. Romans 3 is IN the GOSPEL CONTEXT of the kindness and goodness of God - and the call to repentance.
This means that WITHIN the Gospel scenario there IS impartial JUDGMENT that results in SOME having eternal life and some not.
#4. Paul declares that the JUDGMENT is "according to my gospel". The judgment he speaks of is part of the Gospe.
#5. The Judgment results in "JUSTIFICATION" according to the text. It does not simply happen in a Gospel VOID where ALL those judged are condemned because of course - ALL are sinners.
#6. The DEEDS mentioned are the same FRUITs of MAtt 7 that Christ shows as "determining" outcoming.
#7 The ENTIRE thing is said to occur in an impartial manner and is GUARANTEED to be impartial because GOD HIMSELF is impartial when it comes to salvation according to Rom 2:11
The "obvious" point in both Romans 2 and Matt 7 is that it is NOT a scenario where God "arbitrarily selects out from among the doomed a few to FAVOR".
Both texts are going out of their way to START within the context of the Gospel and to SHOW that in that context of the goodness of God as our Father - and the call to repentance and forgiveness - WE HAVE a judgment of "deeds" where some fail and some pass.
It is NOT the more "general" case of Romans 3 where ALL are condemned WITHOUT the need for a "future judgment" since ALL have sinned.
Why treat ALL in this way?
ANSWER: Because "God is not partial"??
How then does Calvinism accept this chapter?
ANSWER: It does not.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Of course - as I stated a lonnnnnnnnnnng time ago the two forms are divided this way. James 2 and Romans 2 speaks of future justifictation that is corporate objective and external while Romans 3 and Romand 5 point to past justification that is subjective, individual-relational-transformation and internal.
See? (SEE as in -- "See I think you ingore the future corporate version we see in Romans 2 and DAniel 7 so you can take a blinders-on view of JUST the Romans 3 and Romans 5 type of Justification")
In Christ,
Bob
See? (SEE as in -- "See I think you ingore the future corporate version we see in Romans 2 and DAniel 7 so you can take a blinders-on view of JUST the Romans 3 and Romans 5 type of Justification")
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Having said that - I could add to that PAST justification (the essence of justification in Romans 3 and Romans 5 and Rev 3) and point out that the notes on Rev 3 already posted SHOW that your view there - is also missing "details" that we find IN the text!
But amazingly - I have to "say" this long before you actually POST anything but your assertions and speculative conclusions. TExt-devoid posting on your part so far has been "the rule" rather than the "exception".
As I have said before - that strategy is not working for you.
IN Christ,
Bob
But amazingly - I have to "say" this long before you actually POST anything but your assertions and speculative conclusions. TExt-devoid posting on your part so far has been "the rule" rather than the "exception".
As I have said before - that strategy is not working for you.
IN Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
#1 I posted THE ENTIRE CHAPTER!!
#2. You have run from THE ENTIRE CHAPTER of Romans 2 -- to THIS VERY DAY!
(And are still running if the content of your latest posts are any indication).
Don't you "get it" yet? You can't keep pontificating "AS IF" you are "doing something" by tossing vaccuous posts on the board.
You have to actually DO something to make a point!
Get it?
Yet?
Hey Bob
I haven't run from Romans 2. Do you forget the several times I've corrected your errant verse by verse analysis with the superior context of the unit??
The unit begins with 1:18 and ends with 3:19. God condemns all human-centered self-righteousness. In Romans 2, you are told the consequences of law keeping. If you can do it, good for you. If you can't, bad for you. The entire context ends with God's condemnation of the entire race. Not one of us is able to keep the law.
Yet this is what you want to build a system around? A system of impossible obedience? A system of death?
I'm not running - but you have your head in the sand not to be able to see the whole unit. This is the result of denominational blindness.
Meanwhile what have you done with my major conclusions regarding justification? It appears as if you've done nothing - except return to already discredited pleas to Romans 2 abused by being yanked out of context.
I asked for an honest investigation of justification. Have you done it? I posted my results. You haven't commented on anything - not even a challenge to my superior contextual analysis.
Justification is an EVENT. This is why you must force fit self-righteous Christ-denying works upon Romans 2 - even if you have to close your eyes to God's condemnation of such a system of death. It is all you have and you're gonna stick to it. After all, for a person who denies Christ, denial of God's Word is no big thing for you.
So, Bob, where is your scholarly analysis of justification?
It is an event.
It has no part of human activity.
God is the sole active agent.
I'm so sorry this is hard on you Bob.
But for any person who claims to be a Bible scholar, this is where you have to begin.
You've failed to date.
Lloyd
I haven't run from Romans 2. Do you forget the several times I've corrected your errant verse by verse analysis with the superior context of the unit??
The unit begins with 1:18 and ends with 3:19. God condemns all human-centered self-righteousness. In Romans 2, you are told the consequences of law keeping. If you can do it, good for you. If you can't, bad for you. The entire context ends with God's condemnation of the entire race. Not one of us is able to keep the law.
Yet this is what you want to build a system around? A system of impossible obedience? A system of death?
I'm not running - but you have your head in the sand not to be able to see the whole unit. This is the result of denominational blindness.
Meanwhile what have you done with my major conclusions regarding justification? It appears as if you've done nothing - except return to already discredited pleas to Romans 2 abused by being yanked out of context.
I asked for an honest investigation of justification. Have you done it? I posted my results. You haven't commented on anything - not even a challenge to my superior contextual analysis.
Justification is an EVENT. This is why you must force fit self-righteous Christ-denying works upon Romans 2 - even if you have to close your eyes to God's condemnation of such a system of death. It is all you have and you're gonna stick to it. After all, for a person who denies Christ, denial of God's Word is no big thing for you.
So, Bob, where is your scholarly analysis of justification?
It is an event.
It has no part of human activity.
God is the sole active agent.
I'm so sorry this is hard on you Bob.
But for any person who claims to be a Bible scholar, this is where you have to begin.
You've failed to date.
Lloyd
Hey Bob
This is exactly why we did a 100% survey. This is the raw data from which we build theology. Not some rabbit trail that you wish to run down to avoid a confrontation with the truth.
Your pit-the-Bible-against-the-Bible hermeneutic is a broken arrow! Stick with the forty references and stray not.
From the human point, justification is passive. Sorry that conflicts with your theology. But there is but ONE WAY to God and that through Jesus Christ.
Lloyd
Sorry Bob, Rev 3 does not use the word justification. You cannot take sanctification verses and force fit them unto justification.
This is exactly why we did a 100% survey. This is the raw data from which we build theology. Not some rabbit trail that you wish to run down to avoid a confrontation with the truth.
Your pit-the-Bible-against-the-Bible hermeneutic is a broken arrow! Stick with the forty references and stray not.
From the human point, justification is passive. Sorry that conflicts with your theology. But there is but ONE WAY to God and that through Jesus Christ.
Lloyd
Hey Bob
Not only must we be up to speed on justification, but we must also be smart on sanctification. Same drill here! God's Word must be the basis for all theology. It is totally wrong to force personal theology upon God's Word.
Here is the work for sanctification. This is easier (only 19x).
SORTED BY VOICE, THEN TENSE
ACTIVE VOICE
Matt 23:17; Pres Act Ptcp; The temple consecrates the gold on it.
Matt 23:19; Pres Act Ptcp; The altar consecrates the gift on it.
John 17:19a; Pres Act Ind; Jesus set aside Himself
Heb 2:11a; Pres Act Ptcp; God both sets aside;
Heb 9:13; Pres Act Ind; Blood of bulls purifies.
John 10:36; Aor Act Ind; God consecrates Jesus.
John 17:17; Aor Act Imper; Jesus’ asks God to purify the disciples through thy truth
Eph 5:26; Aor Act Subj; The Church is purified by the washing of the word.
1 Thess 5:23; Aor Act Opt; God purifies believers wholly.
Heb 13:12; Aor Act Subj; Jesus suffered that believers might be set aside to God.
1 Pet 3:15; Aor Act Imper; Set aside the Lord God in your hearts.
PASSIVE VOICE
1 Tim 4:5; Pres Pass Ind; Food is consecrated by prayer
Heb 2:11b; Pres Pass Ptcp; those who are set aside are one.
Heb 10:14; Pres Pass Ptcp; Jesus has perfected for ever those who are being purified.
Matt 6:9; Aor Pass Imper; Hallow God’s name.
Luke 11:2; Aor Pass Imper; Hallow God’s name
1 Cor 6:11; Aor Pass Ind; Believers are set aside and justified in Jesus’ name
Heb 10:29; Aor Pass Ind; one was set aside to God yet trod Jesus underfoot
Rev 22:11; Aor Pass Imper; Let the holy be pure.
John 17:19b; Perf Pass Ptcp; that the disciples be set aside through God’s truth
Acts 20:32; Perf Pass Ind; The saved are set aside to God.
Acts 26:18; Perf Pass Ptcp; Believers are set aside by faith
Rom 15:16; Perf Pass Ptcp; Paul is consecrated by the Holy Ghost.
1 Cor 1:2; Perf Pass Ptcp; The Church is set aside in Jesus
1 Cor 7:14a;Perf Pass Ind; The unbelieving husband is consecrated by the wife
1 Cor 7:14b; Perf Pass Ind; The unbelieving wife is consecrated by the husband
2 Tim 2:21; Perf Pass Ptcp; If a man purge himself, he is a consecrated vessel
Heb 10:10; Perf Pass Ptcp; We are set aside by Jesus’ offering once for all.
Jude 1; Perf Pass Ptcp; Believers are set aside by God, preserved, and called.
Lexical conclusions in the next post!
Lloyd
Not only must we be up to speed on justification, but we must also be smart on sanctification. Same drill here! God's Word must be the basis for all theology. It is totally wrong to force personal theology upon God's Word.
Here is the work for sanctification. This is easier (only 19x).
SORTED BY VOICE, THEN TENSE
ACTIVE VOICE
Matt 23:17; Pres Act Ptcp; The temple consecrates the gold on it.
Matt 23:19; Pres Act Ptcp; The altar consecrates the gift on it.
John 17:19a; Pres Act Ind; Jesus set aside Himself
Heb 2:11a; Pres Act Ptcp; God both sets aside;
Heb 9:13; Pres Act Ind; Blood of bulls purifies.
John 10:36; Aor Act Ind; God consecrates Jesus.
John 17:17; Aor Act Imper; Jesus’ asks God to purify the disciples through thy truth
Eph 5:26; Aor Act Subj; The Church is purified by the washing of the word.
1 Thess 5:23; Aor Act Opt; God purifies believers wholly.
Heb 13:12; Aor Act Subj; Jesus suffered that believers might be set aside to God.
1 Pet 3:15; Aor Act Imper; Set aside the Lord God in your hearts.
PASSIVE VOICE
1 Tim 4:5; Pres Pass Ind; Food is consecrated by prayer
Heb 2:11b; Pres Pass Ptcp; those who are set aside are one.
Heb 10:14; Pres Pass Ptcp; Jesus has perfected for ever those who are being purified.
Matt 6:9; Aor Pass Imper; Hallow God’s name.
Luke 11:2; Aor Pass Imper; Hallow God’s name
1 Cor 6:11; Aor Pass Ind; Believers are set aside and justified in Jesus’ name
Heb 10:29; Aor Pass Ind; one was set aside to God yet trod Jesus underfoot
Rev 22:11; Aor Pass Imper; Let the holy be pure.
John 17:19b; Perf Pass Ptcp; that the disciples be set aside through God’s truth
Acts 20:32; Perf Pass Ind; The saved are set aside to God.
Acts 26:18; Perf Pass Ptcp; Believers are set aside by faith
Rom 15:16; Perf Pass Ptcp; Paul is consecrated by the Holy Ghost.
1 Cor 1:2; Perf Pass Ptcp; The Church is set aside in Jesus
1 Cor 7:14a;Perf Pass Ind; The unbelieving husband is consecrated by the wife
1 Cor 7:14b; Perf Pass Ind; The unbelieving wife is consecrated by the husband
2 Tim 2:21; Perf Pass Ptcp; If a man purge himself, he is a consecrated vessel
Heb 10:10; Perf Pass Ptcp; We are set aside by Jesus’ offering once for all.
Jude 1; Perf Pass Ptcp; Believers are set aside by God, preserved, and called.
Lexical conclusions in the next post!
Lloyd
Hey Bob
Here are my lexical conclusions upon you can ruminate for further comment.
FROM THE ACTIVE VOICE
As the temple consecrates the gold upon it (Matt 23:17,19) so also God consecrates Jesus (John 10:36).
Jesus set aside Himself (John 17:19a) that believers might be set aside (Heb 13:12).
God sets believers aside to Himself (Heb 2:11a).
Blood of bulls purifies (Heb 9:13).
Believers are to set aside the Lord God in their hearts (1 Pet 3:15).
FROM THE PASSIVE VOICE
Believers are to hallow God’s name (Matt 6:9; Luke 11:2).
Disciples are set aside through God’s truth (John 17:19b; Acts 20:32)
Disciples are set aside through faith (Acts 26:18; 1 Cor 6:11; Jude 1).
We are set aside by Jesus’ offering once for all (Heb 10:10).
Jesus has perfected for ever those who are being purified (Heb 10:14).
I condense this further:
__Only God is active in historic sanctification
__Humans are active in purification.
__Historical justification and historic sanctification are parallel yet distinct.
What do you think?
Lloyd
Here are my lexical conclusions upon you can ruminate for further comment.
FROM THE ACTIVE VOICE
As the temple consecrates the gold upon it (Matt 23:17,19) so also God consecrates Jesus (John 10:36).
Jesus set aside Himself (John 17:19a) that believers might be set aside (Heb 13:12).
God sets believers aside to Himself (Heb 2:11a).
Blood of bulls purifies (Heb 9:13).
Believers are to set aside the Lord God in their hearts (1 Pet 3:15).
FROM THE PASSIVE VOICE
Believers are to hallow God’s name (Matt 6:9; Luke 11:2).
Disciples are set aside through God’s truth (John 17:19b; Acts 20:32)
Disciples are set aside through faith (Acts 26:18; 1 Cor 6:11; Jude 1).
We are set aside by Jesus’ offering once for all (Heb 10:10).
Jesus has perfected for ever those who are being purified (Heb 10:14).
I condense this further:
__Only God is active in historic sanctification
__Humans are active in purification.
__Historical justification and historic sanctification are parallel yet distinct.
What do you think?
Lloyd
Greetings
As a result of our lexical work in the two key words we come to these easy conclusions:
Justification
__ It is an event.
__ It has no part of human activity.
__ God is the sole active agent.
Sanctification
__Only God is active in historic sanctification
__Humans are active in purification.
__Historical justification and historic sanctification are parallel yet distinct.
1. Works have no part in justification – only the purification aspect of sanctification.
2. Baptism has no part in justification – only the consecration aspect of sanctification.
3. God only is active in justification and in the setting aside aspect of sanctification.
Lloyd
As a result of our lexical work in the two key words we come to these easy conclusions:
Justification
__ It is an event.
__ It has no part of human activity.
__ God is the sole active agent.
Sanctification
__Only God is active in historic sanctification
__Humans are active in purification.
__Historical justification and historic sanctification are parallel yet distinct.
1. Works have no part in justification – only the purification aspect of sanctification.
2. Baptism has no part in justification – only the consecration aspect of sanctification.
3. God only is active in justification and in the setting aside aspect of sanctification.
Lloyd
If the passive form, "being justified," eliminates all human response, then faith itself would be excluded from the plan of redemption.
Just because man does not earn justification does not mean he is free of responsibility.
What is justification? Being made just. It may be described as the divine process by which God acquits the sinner and reckons him as righteous. He is no longer accountable for sin, but free from the debt of sin, but God declares him righteous.
Rom 6:16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
What form of teaching had they obeyed? The death, burial, and resurrection (The gospel according to I Cor 15:1-4) in Rom 6:3-7 when they were baptized into Christ.
It's easy to see how this burial in water represents a death, burial, and resurrection. It does not merit salvation, but is done in faith.
That is why we are childern of God, because, though faith (God told us to do it) we have been baptized into Christ. (Gal 3:26-27)
We earn none of it, but God be thanked that "though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. (Rom 6:17-18).
Greetings mman:
You have errored by transforming the simple look of faith into a full fledged system of works. This is not good.
Justification is by faith alone.
Sanctification is by faithfulness.
One must not confuse the two.
LLoyd
This is not a logical conclusion whatsoever. Faith must actively LOOK to Jesus as Jesus Himself illustrated with the murmuring Israelites and the brazen serpent (John 3). This look of faith appropirates God's declaration of righteousness. God's declaration is active. Humans receive this gift passively.
You have errored by transforming the simple look of faith into a full fledged system of works. This is not good.
Justification is by faith alone.
Sanctification is by faithfulness.
One must not confuse the two.
LLoyd
It is frequently alleged that “justification” is a process accomplished wholly by God, and any “obedience” on the part of man is excluded. But this theory, sincere as it may be, is seriously erroneous. Study this issue with us.
“A friend insists that the word ‘justified’ in the New Testament is in the passive voice, therefore, it is something that God does, not man. Therefore, a human action, such as baptism, could be no part of the justification process. Is this correct?”
Your friend’s argument could not be more incorrect. While the passive form “justified” emphasizes the fact that ultimately only God can acquit sinful man of his guilt, the passive voice does not nullify the fact that Jehovah may set conditions in his own plan for the justification of sinful humanity.
Justification may be defined as the divine process by which God acquits the sinner and reckons him as righteous. The noun dikaiosis (“justification”) is used but twice in the New Testament (Romans 4:25; 5:18). The verb “justified” (dikaioma) is employed ten times in the New Testament, and it describes the result of the process of justification.
There are some exceedingly erroneous ideas regarding justification in the community of “Christendom.”
The Roman Catholic dogma of justification on the basis of meritorious works does not conform to the teaching of the New Testament (Ephsians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5). On the other hand, the reactionary doctrine of Protestantism, that justification is on the ground of “faith alone,” is equally spurious (Galatians 5:6; James 2:14ff; esp. v. 24). Incidentally, if the passive form, "being justified," eliminates all human response, then faith itself would be excluded from the plan of redemption.
Biblical justification involves the following elements:
Because all accountable people are sinners (Romans 3:10,23), and therefore deserving of condemnation (Romans 6:23), if there is to be any hope for fallen humanity, a process of justification must be divinely extended.
No person can earn justification (Matthew 18:21ff), or merit it (Ephesians 2:8-9).
Justification can be extended only on the basis of Christ’s death as the sinless sacrifice for man (1 Peter 1:19; Romans 3:24-26).
Justification will be bestowed only when man responds to God’s plan of redemption by faith (Romans 3:26; 5:1). It is the nature of that “faith” that is crucial to this issue.
In the book of Romans, as elsewhere in the New Testament, faith is not mere mental assent, or even just a disposition to trust the Lord. Rather, it is a willingness to submit to the requirements mandated by the Creator. Genuine faith issues in obedience (Romans 1:5; 16:26).
Note this: Man is justified by faith (Romans 5:1). "Justification” is the equivalent of being “free from sin” (Romans 6:18). But freedom from sin comes only to those who have been “obedient from the heart” to the “pattern” of gospel teaching (Romans 6:17). Thus, justification is predicated upon obedience (cf. Hebrews 5:8-9).
Again, “justification,” or “being made free from sin,” occurs when one is “raised” to walk in “newness of life” (Romans 6:4). These expressions are equivalent. The process of justification is therefore consummated when one is “buried with [Christ] through baptism” and “raised” to the “new” life (6:4a).
Finally, the result of justification is “peace with God” and a rejoicing in “hope of the glory of God” (Romans 5:1-2).
A consideration of these biblical facts clearly reveals that God’s justification, and man’s response to the divine plan of redemption, are not in conflict, or mutually exclusive. The person who truly seeks salvation will trust in God for the justification (acquittal from sin), but, at the same time, will seek that pardon in accordance to the sacred plan revealed in the New Testament.
“A friend insists that the word ‘justified’ in the New Testament is in the passive voice, therefore, it is something that God does, not man. Therefore, a human action, such as baptism, could be no part of the justification process. Is this correct?”
Your friend’s argument could not be more incorrect. While the passive form “justified” emphasizes the fact that ultimately only God can acquit sinful man of his guilt, the passive voice does not nullify the fact that Jehovah may set conditions in his own plan for the justification of sinful humanity.
Justification may be defined as the divine process by which God acquits the sinner and reckons him as righteous. The noun dikaiosis (“justification”) is used but twice in the New Testament (Romans 4:25; 5:18). The verb “justified” (dikaioma) is employed ten times in the New Testament, and it describes the result of the process of justification.
There are some exceedingly erroneous ideas regarding justification in the community of “Christendom.”
The Roman Catholic dogma of justification on the basis of meritorious works does not conform to the teaching of the New Testament (Ephsians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5). On the other hand, the reactionary doctrine of Protestantism, that justification is on the ground of “faith alone,” is equally spurious (Galatians 5:6; James 2:14ff; esp. v. 24). Incidentally, if the passive form, "being justified," eliminates all human response, then faith itself would be excluded from the plan of redemption.
Biblical justification involves the following elements:
Because all accountable people are sinners (Romans 3:10,23), and therefore deserving of condemnation (Romans 6:23), if there is to be any hope for fallen humanity, a process of justification must be divinely extended.
No person can earn justification (Matthew 18:21ff), or merit it (Ephesians 2:8-9).
Justification can be extended only on the basis of Christ’s death as the sinless sacrifice for man (1 Peter 1:19; Romans 3:24-26).
Justification will be bestowed only when man responds to God’s plan of redemption by faith (Romans 3:26; 5:1). It is the nature of that “faith” that is crucial to this issue.
In the book of Romans, as elsewhere in the New Testament, faith is not mere mental assent, or even just a disposition to trust the Lord. Rather, it is a willingness to submit to the requirements mandated by the Creator. Genuine faith issues in obedience (Romans 1:5; 16:26).
Note this: Man is justified by faith (Romans 5:1). "Justification” is the equivalent of being “free from sin” (Romans 6:18). But freedom from sin comes only to those who have been “obedient from the heart” to the “pattern” of gospel teaching (Romans 6:17). Thus, justification is predicated upon obedience (cf. Hebrews 5:8-9).
Again, “justification,” or “being made free from sin,” occurs when one is “raised” to walk in “newness of life” (Romans 6:4). These expressions are equivalent. The process of justification is therefore consummated when one is “buried with [Christ] through baptism” and “raised” to the “new” life (6:4a).
Finally, the result of justification is “peace with God” and a rejoicing in “hope of the glory of God” (Romans 5:1-2).
A consideration of these biblical facts clearly reveals that God’s justification, and man’s response to the divine plan of redemption, are not in conflict, or mutually exclusive. The person who truly seeks salvation will trust in God for the justification (acquittal from sin), but, at the same time, will seek that pardon in accordance to the sacred plan revealed in the New Testament.
Hey Frank
In general, that was an excellent summary of justification and faith.
In particular, your wording is rather vague.
One the one hand, I agree that justification depends on human faith only in so far as it LOOKS to Jesus (John 3). On the other hand, any suggestion that faith must produce works of obedience such as prayer, humility, water baptism, tithing, etc in order to achieve justification must be rejected for failing to comprehend the distinctions between justification and sanctification. Good works belong to sanctification.
Justification comes by an instrumental faith in Jesus. It is the EVENT that activates God's just forgiveness of sins and undeserved imputation of Christ's righteousness.
Sanctification as the act of setting aside is God's activity alone. He sets believers aside and adopts them into His family.
Humans are only involved in sanctification as it pertains to consecration and purification. Water baptism is the act of consecration - just like NOAH. Good works purify us into the image of Jesus Christ.
Justifying faith in Jesus must not become a measure of purifying human obedience.
Your fine post must ultimately be rejected for your inability to emphasis the critical distinction between justification and sanctification.
Lloyd
In general, that was an excellent summary of justification and faith.
In particular, your wording is rather vague.
One the one hand, I agree that justification depends on human faith only in so far as it LOOKS to Jesus (John 3). On the other hand, any suggestion that faith must produce works of obedience such as prayer, humility, water baptism, tithing, etc in order to achieve justification must be rejected for failing to comprehend the distinctions between justification and sanctification. Good works belong to sanctification.
Justification comes by an instrumental faith in Jesus. It is the EVENT that activates God's just forgiveness of sins and undeserved imputation of Christ's righteousness.
Sanctification as the act of setting aside is God's activity alone. He sets believers aside and adopts them into His family.
Humans are only involved in sanctification as it pertains to consecration and purification. Water baptism is the act of consecration - just like NOAH. Good works purify us into the image of Jesus Christ.
Justifying faith in Jesus must not become a measure of purifying human obedience.
Your fine post must ultimately be rejected for your inability to emphasis the critical distinction between justification and sanctification.
Lloyd
Lloyd:
No mattter how many times you espouse your doctrine the bible will still read in Romans 1:16 ¶For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; It will still require:
Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. It will still bless by being In Christ:
2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. It will punish ALL who do not obey:
2 Thessalonians 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
It will read this way on the day of judgment, too.
By the way, I failed to credit a source in my previous post. Wayne Jackson, editor of Christian Courier, gospel preacher for more than 30 years, and Doctor of Theology, should be given credit in the last post.
No mattter how many times you espouse your doctrine the bible will still read in Romans 1:16 ¶For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; It will still require:
Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. It will still bless by being In Christ:
2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. It will punish ALL who do not obey:
2 Thessalonians 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
It will read this way on the day of judgment, too.
By the way, I failed to credit a source in my previous post. Wayne Jackson, editor of Christian Courier, gospel preacher for more than 30 years, and Doctor of Theology, should be given credit in the last post.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
As I am playing catch-up here - I am working my way backwards starting with the more-recent post. (Which I realize is somewhat inconvenient for the history of the posts - but helps get "cut to the chase" quicker).
And in that statement we SEE human "participation". This is not "a robot that got its lights turned on".
The Drawing of God and the convicting of God enables and motivates the lost to "Choose Christ".
It is "an ACT OF faith" to choose to repent and to yield to the influence of the Holy Spirit. In fact it is "the our working work of God" to "believe in Jesus Christ" whom He has sent.
So although Baptism and other such good works do not come before Justification - there is SOMETHING that the sinner does to enter into that New Birth event.
The question is not "did God do something" since God is ALWAYS doing something and is acting even BEFORE the sinner chooses Christ.
The question is - how much choosing, fighting the good fight, buffeting the body and making it my slave... is 'the ACTIVE WORK" of the person vs just being a passive observer.
And since CHOICE was involved from the very start in Justification -- CHOICE can be exercised to "fall from grace" as one "chooses" the bad road identified in Romans 6 "For by what you are overcome by that you are enslaved".
Hence the point in Matt 18 about forgiveness REVOKED!
In Christ,
Bob
Agreed.
And in that statement we SEE human "participation". This is not "a robot that got its lights turned on".
The Drawing of God and the convicting of God enables and motivates the lost to "Choose Christ".
True "mostly".
It is "an ACT OF faith" to choose to repent and to yield to the influence of the Holy Spirit. In fact it is "the our working work of God" to "believe in Jesus Christ" whom He has sent.
So although Baptism and other such good works do not come before Justification - there is SOMETHING that the sinner does to enter into that New Birth event.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Just as the sinner did something in CHOOSING to accept Christ for justification so ALSO the sinner must Persevere - must choose to DO something to engage in Sanctification.
The question is not "did God do something" since God is ALWAYS doing something and is acting even BEFORE the sinner chooses Christ.
The question is - how much choosing, fighting the good fight, buffeting the body and making it my slave... is 'the ACTIVE WORK" of the person vs just being a passive observer.
And since CHOICE was involved from the very start in Justification -- CHOICE can be exercised to "fall from grace" as one "chooses" the bad road identified in Romans 6 "For by what you are overcome by that you are enslaved".
Hence the point in Matt 18 about forgiveness REVOKED!
In Christ,
Bob
Hey BobRyan
You can choose to close your eyes to the lexical analysis if you so choose. But then don't wonder why you can't rightly divide God's Word!
The human activity is nothing more than an assent to receive God's free gift of eternal life. If the sinner is any more active than the LOOK of faith to Jesus, then you have introduced heresy.
The lexical evidence shows that only God is active in justification.
Why do you embrace a view that wilfully contradicts biblical evidences?
Lloyd
You can choose to close your eyes to the lexical analysis if you so choose. But then don't wonder why you can't rightly divide God's Word!
The human activity is nothing more than an assent to receive God's free gift of eternal life. If the sinner is any more active than the LOOK of faith to Jesus, then you have introduced heresy.
The lexical evidence shows that only God is active in justification.
Why do you embrace a view that wilfully contradicts biblical evidences?
Lloyd