Event vrs Process Justification

[BobRyan]

DHK
You believe in a very anemic god if you believe that God was unable to atone for the sins of Adam.

Again - since you have no such quote from me - NOR do you see me making such an argument WHY go there?

How is this making your case that ADAM was NOT under the CURSE and FALLEN and LOST JUST AS ALL sinful, fallen humanity and that Adam needed to ACCEPT salvation - ACCEPT Christ just as ALL do?

Why make this obvious point so hard on yourself?

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
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I show that Adam did not become "UNCREATED" to choose rebellion - embrace sin - get kicked out of the garden and die.
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DHK
You are right. Adam did not and could not become uncreated.

Now we are talking.

Adam was FULLY created and then DIED! HE did not need to be "UNCREATED" to fall, to be expelled to get old and sick and die!

NEITHER does a child of God have to be "UNBORN" to LEAVE - to experience Matt 18 "Forgiveness revoked"!

To experience the Gal 5 problem of "FALLEN from GRACE".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />DHK
You believe in a very anemic god if you believe that God was unable to atone for the sins of Adam.

Again - since you have no such quote from me - NOR do you see me making such an argument WHY go there?

How is this making your case that ADAM was NOT under the CURSE and FALLEN and LOST JUST AS ALL sinful, fallen humanity and that Adam needed to ACCEPT salvation - ACCEPT Christ just as ALL do?

Why make this obvious point so hard on yourself?

IN Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Unless I have misunderstood you, here are some statements you have made:
1. Adam is lost.
2. Adam is not saved.
3. Adam is not in heaven.

So for the record, you can clear these up once and for all.
1. Though you believe Adam fell through sin, and thus was lost, do you believe that through God's sacrifice on behalf of Adam, that Adam was saved?
2. Based on your above answer do you believe that Adam is in heaven today.

From the above answers we can proceed.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Now we are talking.

Adam was FULLY created and then DIED! HE did not need to be "UNCREATED" to fall, to be expelled to get old and sick and die!

NEITHER does a child of God have to be "UNBORN" to LEAVE - to experience Matt 18 "Forgiveness revoked"!

To experience the Gal 5 problem of "FALLEN from GRACE".

In Christ,

Bob

First of all "forgiveness revoked" is an imaginary doctrine which you have failed to prove through Scripture. It is not taught in Mat.18. The only doctrine taught in that passage is the emphasis that we ought to forgive our brother--how much--70 X 7, or as many times as he offends us. That has nothing to do with OSAS, "forgiveness revoked," salvation, or any other related topic. It is simply speaking of forgiveness of one's brother, no more, no less. Why read into Scripture that which is not there??

Adam was fully created as a child of God. There was no way that he could be uncreated, and be turned into a wolf, amoeba, ape, paramecium, frog, or anything else in the animal kingdom. This is not evolution in reverse. He remained one of God's children, though he sinned. When he "died" his fellowship with God was broken. That is what death is--separation with God. Paul explains it in Eph.2:1
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--Speaking to the Christians at Ephesus, he says, that you once were dead, but are now alive. They were not dead physically. They did not die a physical death and then were resurrected. Paul was speaking of a spiritual death. They were separated from God because of their sin. Now that they had been saved, they were no longer separated from God, but had fellowship, and communion with God, for their sins had been forgiven, and the wall of partition had been broken down.
Adam, a created being, always remained a created being. Adam, a child of God, always remained a child of God. Nothing he could ever do could have changed that fact. Sin only broke the relationship that he had with God. It was restored once God offered a sacrifice for him, and blood was shed on his behalf.

So likewise, when a person in born into God's family through the new birth, he cannot under any circumstances be unborn. It is impossible. I cannot go back and enter into my mother's womb again, as Nicodemus said. It is impossible. Once I am born, that is it. I am born. And I will never be able to change that fact. I will always be the son of whomever I was born to. In this case, according to John 1:12,13, I was born of God, and will always be his child. Nothing I can do will ever change that fact. Thus OSAS.
DHK

 

[DHK]

posted September 23, 2005 12:20 PM

#1. I don't believe Adam is in heaven - but that is not because I don't think he was saved by Grace and BORN AGAIN in the OT. It has more to do with believing that thing God said in Gen 3 about mankind not having access to the Tree of Life.

Your belief is posted here earlier in the thread. Adam is not in heaven according to you, Bob. Therefore God's sacrifice was not enough to atone for his sin. This is the reason "I keep going there." You don't believe he was saved by God's grace. This is heresy, as far as I am concerned. It is like saying that God's sacrifice for Adam is not sufficient enough to redeem Adam for his sin, and if that be the case what would make one think that God's sacrifice on Calvary is sufficient to redeem all of mankind for his sin??
DHK

 

[BobRyan]

That "story" you tell in your post above simply dodges the point.

I am arguing that ALL are under the CURSE and ALL need a Savior - that INCLUDED Adam.

I am arguing taht those SAVED by Christ were in fact ACTUALLY LOST - ACTUALLY condemend - ACTUALLY under the curse (Gal 3) and then REDEEMED from the curse - BORN again - becoming part of that "NEW CREATION" of 2Cor 5.

If you want to deny that Adam was BORN AGAIN, or deny that he ever needed to be redeemed from the CURSE of the LAW against sinners - showing them to be lost, having a sinful nature and bound for the 2nd death - then SHOW IT in scripture.

Telling stories will not suffice.

Romans 5 SHOWS all of fallen mankind to be under the SAME CURSE as Adam.

Are you ready to refute that?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by DHK:
First of all "forgiveness revoked" is an imaginary doctrine

That point failed when we SAW that in Matt 18 CHRIST HIMSELF gives the teaching on forgiveness revoked and CONCLUDES with "SO shall my Father do to EACH ONE OF YOU IF YOU do not..." forgive others.

That point was so impossible to ignore - I think you forgot to actually engage in the DETAILS of Matt 18. They are very effective at debunking your views to the contrary.

You make unproven claims and assertions and then DO NOT actually SHOW IN THE TEXT that your point holds water.

And example.

DHK
It is not taught in Mat.18.

Followed by NO REVIEW AT ALL of Matt 18 to SHOW and PROVE your point.

I on the other hand LOVE to show IN THE TEXT of Matt 18 "repeatedly" the EXPLICIT way in which it makes the point of forgiveness revoked.

Since you want to deny the text here - I will quote what you refuse to quote --- Matt 18

Notice that INSTEAD of Christ saying "IT would be NICE of you to forgive others - NOT that you would have your own sins unforgiven or forgiveness revoked or anything like that - it would just be kinda nice for you forgive others" as you seem to "WISH" you had read in Matt 18.

Lets see PROOF of that point -- next.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

First a list of summary points TO SEE PROVEN IN the text of Matt 18

Lets deal with "the obvious" points made IN The text of Matt 18.

#1. The forgiveness shown OTHERS was to be based on the real forgiveness ALREADY received from God.

#2. The REAL forgiveness received from God was regarding the unpayable DEBT that each one owes to God. The debt of sin.

#3. NO one can be SAVED but UNFORGIVEN.

#4. THIS IS an illustration of "THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN" according to Christ.

#5. This is the SAME instruction we see in Matt 6 in the Lord's prayer "FORGIVE us our debts AS WE forgive others".

#6. The DEBT OWED to the King of kings is RETURNED back to the one who OWED the debt as "payment due" and they are put into torment paying that huge debt of sin! This pay-your-own-debt-of-sin idea is never called "The saved relationship with God" in all of scripture.

#7. Christ says to his own followers "So shall My Heavenly Father do to EACH ONE OF YOU IF you do not forgive...". Christ makes the same point that He made in Matt 6 "For IF YOU do not FORGIVE... then neither will..."

#8. The Cahpter of Matt 18 DOES NOT end in vs 22 just saying “YES you should forgive lots o time -- but if you do not nothing bad will happen to you” -- the way many “wish” the chapter had ended.

Matt 18 is a clear, irrefutable and obvious case of "forgiveness REVOKED".

The response of those what believe in OSAS will often list reasons why this story "should not be in scripture" (as it were) -- but they never actually address the devastating "details" in Matt 18 regarding OSAS.

That is instructive.

 

[BobRyan]

The posts are small and easily readibly by the OSAS group --

Matthew 18
21 Then Peter came and said to Him, ""Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?''
22 Jesus said to him, ""I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.


Matt 18:23-35 Forgiveness revoked – as opposed to blaming God for not “preserving us”.

Matt 18
23 ""For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 ""When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25 ""But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.

Here we see that the Kingdom of Heaven is the context – and the servant “owes” in that eternal reality – a debt that is far greater than he and all his substance could ever repay. He is judged as owing the debt and payment is demanded.

So it is for all of humanity – the law points to the debt owed (Romans 6) the “Wages of Sin is death.” And Rev 20 – 21 tells us that this is in fact the suffering and torment of the 2nd death – eternal.

26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 ""And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.

Though the slave undervalues his own debt and over-values his own ability to “repay” – the Lord has mercy on him anyway and “Forgives the Debt” – full and complete forgiveness in the scenario regarding “the Kingdom of Heaven”. This is key to the Arminian point.

But (as Christ points out in His model prayer of Matt 6) those who Are forgiven are under obligation to forgive others.

28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.

Here the case of “the Forgiven” slave is that HE is “unwilling” to show forgiveness to others even though he HAS been forgiven.

Exercising his free-will he is “Unwilling” to give to others that SAME sense of mercy and compassion that HAS been shown him by his Lord.

31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

The Lord does not show any reservation about the full and complete forgiveness that HE gave to His servant.

33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'

Here is the direct appeal to the same Point we see Christ making in Matt 6 “Forgive us OUR debts AS WE forgive our debtors” and then adds “For if you do NOT forgive others then…” well you know what He said.

34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

Clearly – “forgiveness revoked” with FULL payment made now – by the slave!
.

35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

Here many shout “OH NO He will NOT!”. They think that “once forgiven ALWAYS forgiven” applies even to those in rebellion. (A good 4-point Calvinist POV by the way).

Here Christ charges that the point is valid for Christians. He argues that WE have been forgiven by our heavenly Father – and that HE will revoke Our forgiveness just as we see in this story and just as Christ claimed in Matt 6 If “we” do not persevere in showing the Same kind regard for forgiving our brothers.

Rather than God blaming Himself for our lack of perseverance or God claiming that HE failed to preserve us – HE charges that WE are under obligation to obey as He directs or be faced with “forgiveness revoked” just as it is really described in this chapter.