Featured Once Saved, Always Saved?

Sorry I wasn't available today guys and gals. I had a really long day of cleaning up after the hurricane again and I am sore.

Thanks to everyone including Mr. Davis for praying for those of us in the storms path!

To TCassidy, Katarina, Mr. Davis, and the rest I believe I may be being hasty with rejecting OSAS.

As of now, the problem I thought I faced with excluding OSAS from Arminianism may be a severe underestimation of the power of the Living God living inside us with His Spirit. With God anything is possible, and what I think may be happening given the bible verses is that "authentic, born again, Spirit-indwelled" believers may in fact be safe because the Spirit of God lives inside them, perfecting them. It explains why the Spirit is an eternal deposit guaranteeing our inheritance as recorded in the bible (Ephesians 1:13-14).

This certainly makes sense of all the OSAS verses, but the plethora of anti-OSAS verses I have, which I will re-post shortly, give me great pause, but I may be misinterpreting them given how clear Ephesians 1 is. Oh well, thanks everyone for putting up with me. I see where the OSAS, anti-OSAS divide in theology comes from now more clearly.

The big problem I have encountered now with OSAS is personal. I believe it may be giving many people who aren't Spirit indwelled a ton of false confidence. Like myself and a number of people I know over the years that are positive we weren't saved and Spirit indwelled until a considerable time after becoming a church-going Christian. Then again, "fruit inspection" is a surprisingly common worry among church leaders nowadays and I may need to go to the baptist general forum to discuss it.

Also moderators I am sorry I called things too quickly for this thread. I will turn to the new thread I made when this one closes in a mere 20 or so posts.

 

What I really think is wrong, is that the way the church presents our salvation is a guarantee that should give us tons of peace, when the bible over and over again says it is a gift to be confirmed by living out life in fear and trembling over what it would mean to prove false. I believe that is the real problem and thus, surprisingly, I now feel confident on my theology as an Arminian. BTW, being an Arminian greatly surprised me as I thought the bible leaned Calvinistic when I started, and that I was just in rebellion against God's hard truths. My searching of the bible has led me to where I am.

I am now OSAS as an Arminian, but how I live my OSAS life is to be in terror of the Lord for ever proving false by not obeying Him and His Son. The fear of the Lord leads to wisdom and righteousness according to the bible, but one day I will grow up to love of God instead as the bible says.

 

I re-post scriptures Mr. Davis told me to search. I also thank Katarina for all of her scriptures to search.

Hebrews 9:12; Hebrews 9:25-28; Hebrews 10:10; Hebrews 10:12-14; Hebrews 6:4-6; Hebrews 10:30

Compare Romans 8:1; John 3:18; John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:40; John 6:44; John 6:47; John 6:65; John 10:27-30; 1 Corinthians 3:1;1 Corinthians 3:10; 1 Corinthians 3:12-15; 1 Corinthians 5:1; 1 Corinthians 5:5; 1 Corinthians 11:27; 1 Corinthians 11:29-32

Here is a re-post of all of my anti-OSAS scriptures:

In reference to (Matthew 7:13-14): With Christianity as the world's largest religion and a third of earth's population, how can it be said that we are the few who even found the path to salvation?

In reference to (Matthew 7:24-27): Doesn't this speak to the fact that anyone who does not implement the Sermon on the Mount is doomed? Especially when you consider that it comes just after a scary warning in (Matthew 7:21-23) about false disciples, who had miraculous good works even, but failed to obey Jesus and His Father, the Lord, and were thus cast into hell.

In reference to the "sin lists" of (Galatians 5:19-21), (Colossians 3:5-6), (Romans 1:26-31), (1 Timothy 1:9-10), (Revelation 21:8), (2 Corinthians 12:20-21), and (Ephesians 5:3-7): Why is the bible not literally true in these cases, that those who do such things in this life are in fact doomed to hell? Even those who claim salvation and do such things, as this is addressed originally to disciples.

In reference to both (Mark 9:43) (Matthew 10:28) and (Matthew 5:30): why are the disciples even told this stuff? I mean, if they are eternally safe as disciples why such dire warnings about going to hell because of sinning? Also, don't these verses raise the specter that it is a lifestyle of sin in disobedience to Jesus' commands that is indicative of a false disciple?

In reference to (Matthew 7:17-20): Why are those prophets, and nowadays teachers, who bear any bad fruit at all in their lives and teaching not treated as false? I know this could be said of the vast majority of teachers nowadays form Sunday school to the pulpit, but isn't their rejection what the bible asks for? I will also mention (1 Timothy 5:20) as support for this since it demands that elders who sin be rebuked publicly in front of the congregation so that no one will follow after their example. However, I don't want to go too far with this, as (1 Timothy 5:19) tells us to not accuse an elder of sin unless there are 2-3 witnesses.

In reference to (Romans 8:9-13), (Galatians 5:22-25): How can a person's life that is not dominated by the victory of the Spirit over sin, a Spirit that dwells within them and gives them his fruit, ever lead to a remotely normal life like those around us? Yet, polls show that evangelical Christians often sin as boldly as atheists, people whom the bible labels vile fools (Psalms 14:1).

In reference to (1 Corinthians 15:1-2): How can believers have faith in Jesus and yet believe in vain?

In reference to (1 Corinthians 9:27): How can Paul believe he will be disqualified from the prize at all if he does not try so hard to follow Jesus?

Why are we told, really at all in the bible, to keep the commandments in order to inherit eternal life? (Luke 13:1-5)

Why are we warned to keep the faith to the tortured end and also to have good works or fruit to inherit eternal life? (Luke 13:6-9), (Matthew 10:22), (Luke 21:19), (Galatians 6:7-8), (Hebrews 10:26-39), and (Matthew 24:12-13) among many others you can find here in the cross references and treasury of scripture on the right side of the screen:
Hebrews 10:36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised..
Why are these warnings so dire, as if we could fail the test?

Why are we told to pray regularly that our Heavenly Father, the Lord, forgive our sins as we forgive the sins of others? In addition, why are we told that our Father in Heaven will not forgive us if we do not forgive others? (Matthew 6:12-15)

(Revelation 3:5) shows that the book of life in the New Testament is just like it is in the Old Testament. Names are blotted out for unrepentant sins before the Lord.

(Luke 12:4-5) shows we are to be terrified as disciples as to what the Lord will do to us over disobedience. That He has the power to throw us in hell, so be terrified and live a righteous life. In addition, why are we told to live in fear and trembling as we live out our Christian lives (Philippians 2:12). As someone who has trembled before in fear, that only happens if the thing you could do wrong is life or death. Of course, once our love towards the Lord given what He has given us is mature, we are to live like Jesus did in loving submission to our Heavenly Father (1 John 4:18-19).

(1 John 2-:3-6), (1 John 2:29), (1 John 3:3-10), and (1 John 3:14-15) all show that righteous living is required to even fully consider a person a believer. Otherwise they are clearly liars.

(James 2:14-26) and (Hebrews 6:4-6) make so much more sense if it is assumed we are proven false Christians by our deeds at the very least. I even see the possibility of an argument against eternal security of the believer based on all of these verses.

Lastly, why are almost every single one of these warnings addressed to believers?

 

You make an excellent point. The bible says that there are none who do good, not even one. I believe I have to change my view on the will given scripture. Christ's cross is an invitation to the world (John 3:16; John 12:32) and the Spirit is at work convicting the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8). What gets me is that Jesus witnesses to the wicked, or "sinners," so much in his ministry. People the bible tells us go wrong from birth (Psalms 58:3).

I believe I erred and need to reconsider:

• Man's will is sinful and he cannot do good deeds that are considered anything more than filthy rags to the Lord.
• God makes a plea to the world through His convicting Spirit that they repent, put faith in Jesus, and be saved. This supernatural conviction allows people to choose to put faith in Jesus the Christ.
• Jesus bore the sin of all mankind, but not everyone will want Jesus as their king. As a result, many will be rejected who Jesus died for.
• The grace of God can be resisted and finally beaten so as to reject salvation in Christ.
• "Born again, Spirit-indwelled" believers are eternally secure because the Spirit of God lives inside them, perfecting them. However, the common presentation that our salvation is a guarantee that should give us tons of peace is false. The bible tells us over and over again that our salvation is a gift to be confirmed by living out life in fear and trembling over what it would mean to prove false.

 

This is very true, but my original intention with my first thread was to gain biblical knowledge, which has worked wonderfully. I just have to be careful to not write up a creed. I am fairly anti-creedal though so I don't see this as much of a problem. I am increasingly convinced of the last five points I posted as I think on them, which was not true before on anything TULIP. This is a huge advance beyond stark confusion.

Thank you fort your candor and honesty. Here we must disagree since I believe God's invitation through conviction can be rejected. However, both of us arrived here by studying the Word and I know where you are coming from and believe it to be an honest but incorrect reading of the scriptures. I take it you think the same of me. But, because I now understand your viewpoint and those of the Reformed persuasion, this is another major gain from posting these threads.

Here I must part ways with nearly every Baptist I have ever met. I believe we must approach the Lord in fear, really terror, that turns to love as He first loved us. To me the entire bible proclaims this simple truth. Ecclesiastes 3:14 tells us that He made things and ordained them to give us fear of Him. I now know it is outside the Reformed tradition, but I know it is exactly what Menno Simons talked of in his time as his path to salvation. A story that is so similar to mine it shocks me to this day. Maybe I'm just a Mennonite that allows violence for just purposes? I don't know, but I am here and Anabaptists to me are a European continental form of Baptists.

 

Mr. Davis I must finally take issue with you.

1. I am being an honest seeker, that includes waffling.
2. You are not a moderator, and I do not like it when you try to police the board as if you were one.
3. These threads I have started have led to more scriptural references than the threads I have seen in the archive.
4. I will be winding things down on this forum anyway because I now have a basic set of beliefs to understand the TULIP debate that I hold to, but I know may be wrong in light of eternity and His truth.

All of that said, thank you very much for your prayers, and I hope this does not offend you.