SheepWhisperer
Active Member
I said "FOR" us, not "TO" us.
Are you intentionally trying to twist what I say or do you just have trouble reading? Come on bro.
Have a good evening.
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Once Saved, Always Saved?
- Thread starter Steven Yeadon
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I said "FOR" us, not "TO" us.
Are you intentionally trying to twist what I say or do you just have trouble reading? Come on bro.
Have a good evening.
So, did God accept Christ's atonement on behalf of everyone, without distinction?
No, I was trying to elicit exactly the response you provided.
Where are we going?
You too.
Sorry I wasn't available today guys and gals. I had a really long day of cleaning up after the hurricane again and I am sore.
Thanks to everyone including Mr. Davis for praying for those of us in the storms path!
To TCassidy, Katarina, Mr. Davis, and the rest I believe I may be being hasty with rejecting OSAS.
As of now, the problem I thought I faced with excluding OSAS from Arminianism may be a severe underestimation of the power of the Living God living inside us with His Spirit. With God anything is possible, and what I think may be happening given the bible verses is that "authentic, born again, Spirit-indwelled" believers may in fact be safe because the Spirit of God lives inside them, perfecting them. It explains why the Spirit is an eternal deposit guaranteeing our inheritance as recorded in the bible (Ephesians 1:13-14).
This certainly makes sense of all the OSAS verses, but the plethora of anti-OSAS verses I have, which I will re-post shortly, give me great pause, but I may be misinterpreting them given how clear Ephesians 1 is. Oh well, thanks everyone for putting up with me. I see where the OSAS, anti-OSAS divide in theology comes from now more clearly.
The big problem I have encountered now with OSAS is personal. I believe it may be giving many people who aren't Spirit indwelled a ton of false confidence. Like myself and a number of people I know over the years that are positive we weren't saved and Spirit indwelled until a considerable time after becoming a church-going Christian. Then again, "fruit inspection" is a surprisingly common worry among church leaders nowadays and I may need to go to the baptist general forum to discuss it.
Also moderators I am sorry I called things too quickly for this thread. I will turn to the new thread I made when this one closes in a mere 20 or so posts.
Thanks to everyone including Mr. Davis for praying for those of us in the storms path!
To TCassidy, Katarina, Mr. Davis, and the rest I believe I may be being hasty with rejecting OSAS.
As of now, the problem I thought I faced with excluding OSAS from Arminianism may be a severe underestimation of the power of the Living God living inside us with His Spirit. With God anything is possible, and what I think may be happening given the bible verses is that "authentic, born again, Spirit-indwelled" believers may in fact be safe because the Spirit of God lives inside them, perfecting them. It explains why the Spirit is an eternal deposit guaranteeing our inheritance as recorded in the bible (Ephesians 1:13-14).
This certainly makes sense of all the OSAS verses, but the plethora of anti-OSAS verses I have, which I will re-post shortly, give me great pause, but I may be misinterpreting them given how clear Ephesians 1 is. Oh well, thanks everyone for putting up with me. I see where the OSAS, anti-OSAS divide in theology comes from now more clearly.
The big problem I have encountered now with OSAS is personal. I believe it may be giving many people who aren't Spirit indwelled a ton of false confidence. Like myself and a number of people I know over the years that are positive we weren't saved and Spirit indwelled until a considerable time after becoming a church-going Christian. Then again, "fruit inspection" is a surprisingly common worry among church leaders nowadays and I may need to go to the baptist general forum to discuss it.
Also moderators I am sorry I called things too quickly for this thread. I will turn to the new thread I made when this one closes in a mere 20 or so posts.
What I really think is wrong, is that the way the church presents our salvation is a guarantee that should give us tons of peace, when the bible over and over again says it is a gift to be confirmed by living out life in fear and trembling over what it would mean to prove false. I believe that is the real problem and thus, surprisingly, I now feel confident on my theology as an Arminian. BTW, being an Arminian greatly surprised me as I thought the bible leaned Calvinistic when I started, and that I was just in rebellion against God's hard truths. My searching of the bible has led me to where I am.
I am now OSAS as an Arminian, but how I live my OSAS life is to be in terror of the Lord for ever proving false by not obeying Him and His Son. The fear of the Lord leads to wisdom and righteousness according to the bible, but one day I will grow up to love of God instead as the bible says.
I am now OSAS as an Arminian, but how I live my OSAS life is to be in terror of the Lord for ever proving false by not obeying Him and His Son. The fear of the Lord leads to wisdom and righteousness according to the bible, but one day I will grow up to love of God instead as the bible says.
I re-post scriptures Mr. Davis told me to search. I also thank Katarina for all of her scriptures to search.
Hebrews 9:12; Hebrews 9:25-28; Hebrews 10:10; Hebrews 10:12-14; Hebrews 6:4-6; Hebrews 10:30
Compare Romans 8:1; John 3:18; John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:40; John 6:44; John 6:47; John 6:65; John 10:27-30; 1 Corinthians 3:1;1 Corinthians 3:10; 1 Corinthians 3:12-15; 1 Corinthians 5:1; 1 Corinthians 5:5; 1 Corinthians 11:27; 1 Corinthians 11:29-32
Here is a re-post of all of my anti-OSAS scriptures:
In reference to (Matthew 7:13-14): With Christianity as the world's largest religion and a third of earth's population, how can it be said that we are the few who even found the path to salvation?
In reference to (Matthew 7:24-27): Doesn't this speak to the fact that anyone who does not implement the Sermon on the Mount is doomed? Especially when you consider that it comes just after a scary warning in (Matthew 7:21-23) about false disciples, who had miraculous good works even, but failed to obey Jesus and His Father, the Lord, and were thus cast into hell.
In reference to the "sin lists" of (Galatians 5:19-21), (Colossians 3:5-6), (Romans 1:26-31), (1 Timothy 1:9-10), (Revelation 21:8), (2 Corinthians 12:20-21), and (Ephesians 5:3-7): Why is the bible not literally true in these cases, that those who do such things in this life are in fact doomed to hell? Even those who claim salvation and do such things, as this is addressed originally to disciples.
In reference to both (Mark 9:43) (Matthew 10:28) and (Matthew 5:30): why are the disciples even told this stuff? I mean, if they are eternally safe as disciples why such dire warnings about going to hell because of sinning? Also, don't these verses raise the specter that it is a lifestyle of sin in disobedience to Jesus' commands that is indicative of a false disciple?
In reference to (Matthew 7:17-20): Why are those prophets, and nowadays teachers, who bear any bad fruit at all in their lives and teaching not treated as false? I know this could be said of the vast majority of teachers nowadays form Sunday school to the pulpit, but isn't their rejection what the bible asks for? I will also mention (1 Timothy 5:20) as support for this since it demands that elders who sin be rebuked publicly in front of the congregation so that no one will follow after their example. However, I don't want to go too far with this, as (1 Timothy 5:19) tells us to not accuse an elder of sin unless there are 2-3 witnesses.
In reference to (Romans 8:9-13), (Galatians 5:22-25): How can a person's life that is not dominated by the victory of the Spirit over sin, a Spirit that dwells within them and gives them his fruit, ever lead to a remotely normal life like those around us? Yet, polls show that evangelical Christians often sin as boldly as atheists, people whom the bible labels vile fools (Psalms 14:1).
In reference to (1 Corinthians 15:1-2): How can believers have faith in Jesus and yet believe in vain?
In reference to (1 Corinthians 9:27): How can Paul believe he will be disqualified from the prize at all if he does not try so hard to follow Jesus?
Why are we told, really at all in the bible, to keep the commandments in order to inherit eternal life? (Luke 13:1-5)
Why are we warned to keep the faith to the tortured end and also to have good works or fruit to inherit eternal life? (Luke 13:6-9), (Matthew 10:22), (Luke 21:19), (Galatians 6:7-8), (Hebrews 10:26-39), and (Matthew 24:12-13) among many others you can find here in the cross references and treasury of scripture on the right side of the screen:
Hebrews 10:36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised..
Why are these warnings so dire, as if we could fail the test?
Why are we told to pray regularly that our Heavenly Father, the Lord, forgive our sins as we forgive the sins of others? In addition, why are we told that our Father in Heaven will not forgive us if we do not forgive others? (Matthew 6:12-15)
(Revelation 3:5) shows that the book of life in the New Testament is just like it is in the Old Testament. Names are blotted out for unrepentant sins before the Lord.
(Luke 12:4-5) shows we are to be terrified as disciples as to what the Lord will do to us over disobedience. That He has the power to throw us in hell, so be terrified and live a righteous life. In addition, why are we told to live in fear and trembling as we live out our Christian lives (Philippians 2:12). As someone who has trembled before in fear, that only happens if the thing you could do wrong is life or death. Of course, once our love towards the Lord given what He has given us is mature, we are to live like Jesus did in loving submission to our Heavenly Father (1 John 4:18-19).
(1 John 2-:3-6), (1 John 2:29), (1 John 3:3-10), and (1 John 3:14-15) all show that righteous living is required to even fully consider a person a believer. Otherwise they are clearly liars.
(James 2:14-26) and (Hebrews 6:4-6) make so much more sense if it is assumed we are proven false Christians by our deeds at the very least. I even see the possibility of an argument against eternal security of the believer based on all of these verses.
Lastly, why are almost every single one of these warnings addressed to believers?
Hebrews 9:12; Hebrews 9:25-28; Hebrews 10:10; Hebrews 10:12-14; Hebrews 6:4-6; Hebrews 10:30
Compare Romans 8:1; John 3:18; John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:40; John 6:44; John 6:47; John 6:65; John 10:27-30; 1 Corinthians 3:1;1 Corinthians 3:10; 1 Corinthians 3:12-15; 1 Corinthians 5:1; 1 Corinthians 5:5; 1 Corinthians 11:27; 1 Corinthians 11:29-32
Here is a re-post of all of my anti-OSAS scriptures:
In reference to (Matthew 7:13-14): With Christianity as the world's largest religion and a third of earth's population, how can it be said that we are the few who even found the path to salvation?
In reference to (Matthew 7:24-27): Doesn't this speak to the fact that anyone who does not implement the Sermon on the Mount is doomed? Especially when you consider that it comes just after a scary warning in (Matthew 7:21-23) about false disciples, who had miraculous good works even, but failed to obey Jesus and His Father, the Lord, and were thus cast into hell.
In reference to the "sin lists" of (Galatians 5:19-21), (Colossians 3:5-6), (Romans 1:26-31), (1 Timothy 1:9-10), (Revelation 21:8), (2 Corinthians 12:20-21), and (Ephesians 5:3-7): Why is the bible not literally true in these cases, that those who do such things in this life are in fact doomed to hell? Even those who claim salvation and do such things, as this is addressed originally to disciples.
In reference to both (Mark 9:43) (Matthew 10:28) and (Matthew 5:30): why are the disciples even told this stuff? I mean, if they are eternally safe as disciples why such dire warnings about going to hell because of sinning? Also, don't these verses raise the specter that it is a lifestyle of sin in disobedience to Jesus' commands that is indicative of a false disciple?
In reference to (Matthew 7:17-20): Why are those prophets, and nowadays teachers, who bear any bad fruit at all in their lives and teaching not treated as false? I know this could be said of the vast majority of teachers nowadays form Sunday school to the pulpit, but isn't their rejection what the bible asks for? I will also mention (1 Timothy 5:20) as support for this since it demands that elders who sin be rebuked publicly in front of the congregation so that no one will follow after their example. However, I don't want to go too far with this, as (1 Timothy 5:19) tells us to not accuse an elder of sin unless there are 2-3 witnesses.
In reference to (Romans 8:9-13), (Galatians 5:22-25): How can a person's life that is not dominated by the victory of the Spirit over sin, a Spirit that dwells within them and gives them his fruit, ever lead to a remotely normal life like those around us? Yet, polls show that evangelical Christians often sin as boldly as atheists, people whom the bible labels vile fools (Psalms 14:1).
In reference to (1 Corinthians 15:1-2): How can believers have faith in Jesus and yet believe in vain?
In reference to (1 Corinthians 9:27): How can Paul believe he will be disqualified from the prize at all if he does not try so hard to follow Jesus?
Why are we told, really at all in the bible, to keep the commandments in order to inherit eternal life? (Luke 13:1-5)
Why are we warned to keep the faith to the tortured end and also to have good works or fruit to inherit eternal life? (Luke 13:6-9), (Matthew 10:22), (Luke 21:19), (Galatians 6:7-8), (Hebrews 10:26-39), and (Matthew 24:12-13) among many others you can find here in the cross references and treasury of scripture on the right side of the screen:
Hebrews 10:36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised..
Why are these warnings so dire, as if we could fail the test?
Why are we told to pray regularly that our Heavenly Father, the Lord, forgive our sins as we forgive the sins of others? In addition, why are we told that our Father in Heaven will not forgive us if we do not forgive others? (Matthew 6:12-15)
(Revelation 3:5) shows that the book of life in the New Testament is just like it is in the Old Testament. Names are blotted out for unrepentant sins before the Lord.
(Luke 12:4-5) shows we are to be terrified as disciples as to what the Lord will do to us over disobedience. That He has the power to throw us in hell, so be terrified and live a righteous life. In addition, why are we told to live in fear and trembling as we live out our Christian lives (Philippians 2:12). As someone who has trembled before in fear, that only happens if the thing you could do wrong is life or death. Of course, once our love towards the Lord given what He has given us is mature, we are to live like Jesus did in loving submission to our Heavenly Father (1 John 4:18-19).
(1 John 2-:3-6), (1 John 2:29), (1 John 3:3-10), and (1 John 3:14-15) all show that righteous living is required to even fully consider a person a believer. Otherwise they are clearly liars.
(James 2:14-26) and (Hebrews 6:4-6) make so much more sense if it is assumed we are proven false Christians by our deeds at the very least. I even see the possibility of an argument against eternal security of the believer based on all of these verses.
Lastly, why are almost every single one of these warnings addressed to believers?
Patricia robinson
New Member
Don't you think it's all because we fail to come to the cross and experience his love properly.
Saying sorry is one thing but actually being in his presence where he gives you peace is hard work for us at times. Everything wants us to not do it. We have to master the art of true worship with Him if we are ever going to be free of condemnation and religious activity.
Saying sorry is one thing but actually being in his presence where he gives you peace is hard work for us at times. Everything wants us to not do it. We have to master the art of true worship with Him if we are ever going to be free of condemnation and religious activity.
You're almost contradicting yourself, Steven. "not entirely incapacitated by the sinful nature and can choose to put faith in Jesus Christ" is not a traditional Arminian view, though I'm not saying that some Arminians don't hold to it; however, I'm not sure they're really Arminians.
And I'm not sure what "greatly incapacitates" means in this context. Traditional Arminian theology maintains that man's will is totally incapacitated.
Both Calvinists and traditional Arminians have the same technical understanding of total inability.
The Orthodox Creed of the General Baptists (1679) puts it this way:
"But Man in the state of Innocency, had such power and liberty of Will,
to chuse and perform that which was acceptable and well pleasing to God, according to the requirement of the First Covenant; but he falling from his state of Innocency, wholly lost all ability, or liberty of Will, to any Spiritual Good, for his eternal Salvation, his Will being now in bondage under Sin and Satan; and therefore not able of his own strength to Convert himself,
nor prepare himself thereunto, without God’s Grace taketh away the enmity out of his Will, and by his special Grace, freeth him from his natural Bondage under Sin ... "
Thus both Calvinists and traditional Arminians agree that humans, without a divine gift of grace, cannot respond to God.
True, as BOTH would affirm that the fall made mankind depraved, and unable to come to Christ to get saved in and of ourselves, but they differ on whether God intended to save some or all sinners. Calvinist maintain that just the elect were intended to get saved, and that God will send to them Grace unable to be resisted, while Arms would hold that God sent forth saving grace towards all, and that how we decide to accept/reject will determine our destiny.
Patricia robinson
New Member
Patricia robinson
New Member
2 Corinthians 5:17-21New King James Version (NKJV)
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
This is a fantastic passage. He holds no sins against us. We are a brand new creation. He took all our mistakes and failures to the cross and paid the punishment we deserved. Simple but the enemy wants us to think it's complicated.
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
This is a fantastic passage. He holds no sins against us. We are a brand new creation. He took all our mistakes and failures to the cross and paid the punishment we deserved. Simple but the enemy wants us to think it's complicated.
You make an excellent point. The bible says that there are none who do good, not even one. I believe I have to change my view on the will given scripture. Christ's cross is an invitation to the world (John 3:16; John 12:32) and the Spirit is at work convicting the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8). What gets me is that Jesus witnesses to the wicked, or "sinners," so much in his ministry. People the bible tells us go wrong from birth (Psalms 58:3).
I believe I erred and need to reconsider:
- Man's will is sinful and he cannot do good deeds that are considered anything more than filthy rags to the Lord.
- God makes a plea to the world through His convicting Spirit that they repent, put faith in Jesus, and be saved. This supernatural conviction allows people to choose to put faith in Jesus the Christ.
- Jesus bore the sin of all mankind, but not everyone will want Jesus as their king. As a result, many will be rejected who Jesus died for.
- The grace of God can be resisted and finally beaten so as to reject salvation in Christ.
- "Born again, Spirit-indwelled" believers are eternally secure because the Spirit of God lives inside them, perfecting them. However, the common presentation that our salvation is a guarantee that should give us tons of peace is false. The bible tells us over and over again that our salvation is a gift to be confirmed by living out life in fear and trembling over what it would mean to prove false.
So which is it? Are believers eternally secure and to rest and be joyful in that blessed hope or should they live "in fear and trembling" lest they should stumble and he cast away?
If you want to posit that it not existentially possible for any of us to know what we are "born-again, Spirit-indwelled" believers, I can go down that path with you a way. But if you want to say that salvation is "a gift to be confirmed by living out life in fear and trembling over what it would mean to prove false," we have to part company.
That is completely outside what I would call the Reformed tradition, i.e., the bundle of doctrines that hold that there is nothing, absolutely nothing, we can do to merit God's favor, that it is wholly of his freely bestowed grace. Yes, because we are new creatures in Christ we expect to be transformed more and more into His likeness. But Christ is the one who does the regeneration; if we are not regenerated it matters not a whit how many good deeds we attempt to "make sure" our salvation.
Steven, I think you mean well in attempting to formulate a 100-percent, ironclad statement of your beliefs, but the fact that you change every time someone brings up a point means that you really are not ready to make such a statement.
And that's all right. As to soteriology, my view is that a simple affirmation that salvation is all of God, that He provides the grace necessary to accomplish it and that we can do nothing to add to His finished work, is a good place to start. You are not ready to get into the weeds on this; hardly any of us are ready to make dogmatic assertions about God's complete plan of salvation. Certainly I'm not.
My views are those that I've been convinced of over the course of many, many years. I may be right; I may be wrong; I may be both or neither.
I encourage reading the confessions not because they are infallible, but because they deal with controversies that are extant at their time. The Orthodox Creed, for example, specifically includes the Athanasian Creed because so many General Baptists were slipping into Unitarianism (a trend that continued until the Generals were all but extinct in England).
This is very true, but my original intention with my first thread was to gain biblical knowledge, which has worked wonderfully. I just have to be careful to not write up a creed. I am fairly anti-creedal though so I don't see this as much of a problem. I am increasingly convinced of the last five points I posted as I think on them, which was not true before on anything TULIP. This is a huge advance beyond stark confusion.
Thank you fort your candor and honesty. Here we must disagree since I believe God's invitation through conviction can be rejected. However, both of us arrived here by studying the Word and I know where you are coming from and believe it to be an honest but incorrect reading of the scriptures. I take it you think the same of me. But, because I now understand your viewpoint and those of the Reformed persuasion, this is another major gain from posting these threads.
Here I must part ways with nearly every Baptist I have ever met. I believe we must approach the Lord in fear, really terror, that turns to love as He first loved us. To me the entire bible proclaims this simple truth. Ecclesiastes 3:14 tells us that He made things and ordained them to give us fear of Him. I now know it is outside the Reformed tradition, but I know it is exactly what Menno Simons talked of in his time as his path to salvation. A story that is so similar to mine it shocks me to this day. Maybe I'm just a Mennonite that allows violence for just purposes? I don't know, but I am here and Anabaptists to me are a European continental form of Baptists.
Steven, you are not confused! You like to go back and forth to get people's attention!
In an earlier post you say you are "OSAS Arminian"--While this is a total contradiction- you say it to stir people up! And below you say:
Eternal Security guarantees our salvation--It is eternal! This gives the believer enormous PEACE! This gift does not need to be confirmed. Our salvation does not depend on our obedience! (See especially Romans 5:19) Also, Romans 9:11; Romans 9:14-16.
You should stop posting--Your constant WAFFLING is a distraction to others who want to discuss this topic seriously! Indeed, you said you wanted to start a thread in the General Baptist forum. Adios! --We will stay here!
In an earlier post you say you are "OSAS Arminian"--While this is a total contradiction- you say it to stir people up! And below you say:
- "Born again, Spirit-indwelled" believers are eternally secure because the Spirit of God lives inside them, perfecting them. However, the common presentation that our salvation is a guarantee that should give us tons of peace is false. The bible tells us over and over again that our salvation is a gift to be confirmed by living out life in fear and trembling over what it would mean to prove false.
Eternal Security guarantees our salvation--It is eternal! This gives the believer enormous PEACE! This gift does not need to be confirmed. Our salvation does not depend on our obedience! (See especially Romans 5:19) Also, Romans 9:11; Romans 9:14-16.
You should stop posting--Your constant WAFFLING is a distraction to others who want to discuss this topic seriously! Indeed, you said you wanted to start a thread in the General Baptist forum. Adios! --We will stay here!
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Mr. Davis I must finally take issue with you.
1. I am being an honest seeker, that includes waffling.
2. You are not a moderator, and I do not like it when you try to police the board as if you were one.
3. These threads I have started have led to more scriptural references than the threads I have seen in the archive.
4. I will be winding things down on this forum anyway because I now have a basic set of beliefs to understand the TULIP debate that I hold to, but I know may be wrong in light of eternity and His truth.
All of that said, thank you very much for your prayers, and I hope this does not offend you.
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