I believe we must approach the Lord in fear, really terror, that turns to love as He first loved us. To me the entire bible proclaims this simple truth. Ecclesiastes 3:14 tells us that He made things and ordained them to give us fear of Him. I now know it is outside the Reformed tradition, but I know it is exactly what Menno Simons talked of in his time as his path to salvation. A story that is so similar to mine it shocks me to this day. Maybe I'm just a Mennonite that allows violence for just purposes? I don't know, but I am here and Anabaptists to me are a European continental form of Baptists.
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Once Saved, Always Saved?
- Thread starter Steven Yeadon
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I believe we must approach the Lord in fear, really terror, that turns to love as He first loved us. To me the entire bible proclaims this simple truth. Ecclesiastes 3:14 tells us that He made things and ordained them to give us fear of Him. I now know it is outside the Reformed tradition, but I know it is exactly what Menno Simons talked of in his time as his path to salvation. A story that is so similar to mine it shocks me to this day. Maybe I'm just a Mennonite that allows violence for just purposes? I don't know, but I am here and Anabaptists to me are a European continental form of Baptists.
I updated my post after you replied.--Also, I am not a moderator. TCassidy made this clear! Did you not read his post?!
In addition, another poster challenged you: that you were contradicting yourself! This is not so much waffling as dissimulation!
You didn't look at the complete Archive! I suggested OSAS, Eternal Security, Perseverance, and TULIP. Many more scriptures there than your "scriptural references."
Not "maybe wrong"--You are WRONG. And no amount of additional Bible study or reviewing more comments to your posts will ever keep you from craving attention!
Look, please stop attacking my character, I do not crave attention as you put it. And I hate having to listen to your slander of me.
-EDIT-
Read my last reply to rsr to see how far I have come because of my threads. Also, I went back and studied OSAS in the archive. I had forgotten about the other issues you told me to look up.
NOT attacking your character! NOT slandering you!! I did do that once before and profoundly apologized for it. NOT this time. I meant what I said. I stand behind it. You have had 3 threads craving attention in all of them.--that is more than enough! If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!
Mr. Davis, I plead with you to calm down. I want to get back to discussing the issues at hand if there is anything left to discuss.
How can anyone take you seriously? Your clever misdirections ought to be obvious to everyone! You've had 3 threads and have deliberately gotten nowhere!
As I mentioned before, you are done here. Let people debate this issue seriously. You have said you want to start yet another thread. Go to it! After all this nonsense, I doubt many will follow.
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I have started a new thread for those interested in discussing OSAS and the fear of the Lord.
A Concern of Mine
A Concern of Mine
Once I asked God if I was in that book of life. He told me NOPE.
Now I just do what he wills for free.
Great humor!
Good to have you back utilyan! You know what you believe.
We haven't agreed on much before, but you always bring up a lot of good, challenging points.
I am going to make every effort to treat you with respect. Forgive me for not doing so in the past. I have learned from recent experience that this is a must.
Welcome Back!
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Utilyan and others may disagree with you. I believe you are right. Would, however, like to hear what they say.
In post #102 TCassidy wrote to SheepWhisperer:
So, did God accept Christ's atonement on behalf of everyone, without distinction?
Would like to hear from SheepWhisperer and anyone else who'd like to comment.
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Lest anyone think I am a universalist or someone who believes that every path leads to God, I am tolerant of humans who have been taught incorrectly.
I am not so forgiving of those who lead people astray — and that means everyone who would take advantage of the flock — Catholics or Baptists or Word of Faith. God understands our weaknesses but holds those in authority to a high standard.
"Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea." Matthew 18:5-6, ESV.
"Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness." James 3;1, ESV.
I am not so forgiving of those who lead people astray — and that means everyone who would take advantage of the flock — Catholics or Baptists or Word of Faith. God understands our weaknesses but holds those in authority to a high standard.
"Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea." Matthew 18:5-6, ESV.
"Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness." James 3;1, ESV.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
OSAS fails the test of scripture
You have free will -- you can choose to not see all the scripture you wish.
Meanwhile - we can see --
True. As we see in Matthew 18, in Ezekiel 18, in Romans 11, in 1Cor 6, in 1 Cor 9 ...
Here is what "scripture clearly teaches"
Fallen from grace, severed from Christ - Galatians 5:1-4 " 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace "
Ezek 18
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. 25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. 28 Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
Forgiveness revoked: Matthew 18: 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”
Disqualified from the Gospel : 1 Cor 9:23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you. 24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
Stand by Faith yet fear being cut off from Christ: Romans 11:19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again
Do not be deceived into believing OSAS 1 Cor 6:7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren. 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified
====================
You are Baptist - you are free to engage in all the "proof by adominem" that you wish - you can be among the Baptists that choose not to go down that path. Your choice.
Indeed... "sola scriptura" rather than "sola ad hominem"
That will be a little "uncomfortable" for some.
But as has often been seen - the mere quote of the text is sufficient cause to give rise to loud objection to it.
You have free will -- you can choose to not see all the scripture you wish.
Meanwhile - we can see --
True. As we see in Matthew 18, in Ezekiel 18, in Romans 11, in 1Cor 6, in 1 Cor 9 ...
Here is what "scripture clearly teaches"
Fallen from grace, severed from Christ - Galatians 5:1-4 " 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace "
Ezek 18
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. 25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. 28 Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
Forgiveness revoked: Matthew 18: 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”
Disqualified from the Gospel : 1 Cor 9:23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you. 24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
Stand by Faith yet fear being cut off from Christ: Romans 11:19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again
Do not be deceived into believing OSAS 1 Cor 6:7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren. 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified
====================
You are Baptist - you are free to engage in all the "proof by adominem" that you wish - you can be among the Baptists that choose not to go down that path. Your choice.
Indeed... "sola scriptura" rather than "sola ad hominem"
That will be a little "uncomfortable" for some.
But as has often been seen - the mere quote of the text is sufficient cause to give rise to loud objection to it.
BobRyan: OSAS fails the test of scripture...
You have free will -- you can choose to not see all the scripture you wish.
I believe I replied to you earlier--our comments were all in red.
Nonetheless, you have been refuted not only by myself but by related comments
by others. You are extremely selective in your choice of scriptures. You choose
not to see all the scriptures that support OSAS.
TCassidy, along with others, has refuted "free will." There is no part of man's nature
not corrupted by the Fall. He agreed with me that there is no region in man's being
that is innocent. Not his mind, not his soul, not his spirit, not his body.
Man is spiritually DEAD in his trespasses and sins. (Eph 2) A DEAD man can choose nothing.
Only God ALONE can make him ALIVE. He regenerates and brings faith to His elect. There is ABUNDANT
scripture in John where Jesus declares that those who believe have eternal life; they shall NEVER perish!
We are not saved by our obedience. (Romans 5:19). We are saved by Christ's finished work on the Cross.
As I have said before, Christ's sacrifice was for all of our sins. Past, Present, and Future. He sacrificed
Himself once for all time. (See all of my scriptures in Hebrews posted earlier) Because He is always interceding for us, our forgiveness is certain. But, when we sin, we must confess (1 John 1:9). This is mandatory to maintain fellowship with Him. We will NEVER lose our relationship with Him.
You have free will -- you can choose to not see all the scripture you wish.
I believe I replied to you earlier--our comments were all in red.
Nonetheless, you have been refuted not only by myself but by related comments
by others. You are extremely selective in your choice of scriptures. You choose
not to see all the scriptures that support OSAS.
TCassidy, along with others, has refuted "free will." There is no part of man's nature
not corrupted by the Fall. He agreed with me that there is no region in man's being
that is innocent. Not his mind, not his soul, not his spirit, not his body.
Man is spiritually DEAD in his trespasses and sins. (Eph 2) A DEAD man can choose nothing.
Only God ALONE can make him ALIVE. He regenerates and brings faith to His elect. There is ABUNDANT
scripture in John where Jesus declares that those who believe have eternal life; they shall NEVER perish!
We are not saved by our obedience. (Romans 5:19). We are saved by Christ's finished work on the Cross.
As I have said before, Christ's sacrifice was for all of our sins. Past, Present, and Future. He sacrificed
Himself once for all time. (See all of my scriptures in Hebrews posted earlier) Because He is always interceding for us, our forgiveness is certain. But, when we sin, we must confess (1 John 1:9). This is mandatory to maintain fellowship with Him. We will NEVER lose our relationship with Him.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
OSAS fails the test of scripture
As we see in Matthew 18, in Ezekiel 18, in Romans 11, in 1Cor 6, in 1 Cor 9 ...
Here is what "scripture clearly teaches"
Fallen from grace, severed from Christ - Galatians 5:1-4 " 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace "
Ezek 18
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. 25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. 28 Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
Forgiveness revoked: Matthew 18: 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”
Disqualified from the Gospel : 1 Cor 9:23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you. 24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
Stand by Faith yet fear being cut off from Christ: Romans 11:19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again
Do not be deceived into believing OSAS 1 Cor 6:7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren. 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified
Ok - but it looks like that text in "red" is in fact my quote of the Bible.
What am I missing?
The Bible cannot be refuted. The text above is a quote of the Bible itself.
Details matter.
That is true. I am specifically selecting the texts that show where OSAS does not pass the test of scripture.
Is that supposed to be "a bad thing"??
There are scripture which do not state the salient argument for OSAS but can easily be imagine and inferred to do it with a bit of imagination. I freely admit that.
The argument for free will does not argue against that point.
Rather the argument for free will (in the case of fallen humanity) argues from the "inconvenient Bible detail" that the DRAWING of ALL mankind ( John 12:32) -- is supernatural and even by Calvinist standards it enables all the 'CHOICE' that depravity disables - when it comes to accepting the Gospel.
Romans 10 illustrates this point in triplicate.
Which is fine - as it does not address where we actually have a point of difference.
That is "gaming" the symbolism.
A dead man cannot sin. (if we are to play your game)
As we see in Matthew 18, in Ezekiel 18, in Romans 11, in 1Cor 6, in 1 Cor 9 ...
Here is what "scripture clearly teaches"
Fallen from grace, severed from Christ - Galatians 5:1-4 " 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace "
Ezek 18
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. 25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. 28 Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
Forgiveness revoked: Matthew 18: 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”
Disqualified from the Gospel : 1 Cor 9:23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you. 24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
Stand by Faith yet fear being cut off from Christ: Romans 11:19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again
Do not be deceived into believing OSAS 1 Cor 6:7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren. 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified
Ok - but it looks like that text in "red" is in fact my quote of the Bible.
What am I missing?
The Bible cannot be refuted. The text above is a quote of the Bible itself.
Details matter.
That is true. I am specifically selecting the texts that show where OSAS does not pass the test of scripture.
Is that supposed to be "a bad thing"??
There are scripture which do not state the salient argument for OSAS but can easily be imagine and inferred to do it with a bit of imagination. I freely admit that.
The argument for free will does not argue against that point.
Rather the argument for free will (in the case of fallen humanity) argues from the "inconvenient Bible detail" that the DRAWING of ALL mankind ( John 12:32) -- is supernatural and even by Calvinist standards it enables all the 'CHOICE' that depravity disables - when it comes to accepting the Gospel.
Romans 10 illustrates this point in triplicate.
Which is fine - as it does not address where we actually have a point of difference.
That is "gaming" the symbolism.
A dead man cannot sin. (if we are to play your game)
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