2ed of 2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

You have no proof at all for slicing Res 3 and 4 into TWO!!

Why not focus on the FUTURE resurrection to John's day -- the one HE CALLS "The FIRST resurrection" in Rev 20??

I think you avoid it because it would point to a POST-Trib rapture JUST LIKE Matt 24 does!

For if John is RIGHT - and the Resurrection of Rev 20 is THE FIRST resurrection (which is the one AFTER the appearing of Christ in Rev 19 and the one that STARTS the 1000 year literal millennium) then only the POST-trib rapture at the return of Christ FITS the model!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

The question is asked as to how this fits with the future predicted in 2Thess 2:1-7 where the "man of sin" causes all to fall that do not "have a love of the truth".

The answer is -- "perfectly".

In Both Matt 24 and 2Thess 2 we see the same thing presented PRIOR to the return of Christ in the air to "receive us to Himself" and take us to that "place He has prepared for us" in His Father's house.

And THEN we see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven - (as described in Matt 24 FUTURE to th writing of that Gospel).

In the same way - before the return of Christ we ALSO see the deception that is predicted (future to Paul's day)

The falling away of vs 1-4 came with the fall of the Christian church into the form of the RCC, and persecution of the saints by the church during the dark ages.

But the "Great deception" described in both 2Thess 2 and in Matt 24 that comes at the end and BEFORE the return of Christ - has yet to take place.

So to add to the sequence above ...

0. The Christian church continues -- You are here

1. The great apostacy of the dark ages (2Thess 2:2-4)
2. The Seven last Plagues (Rev 16)
3. The GREAT deception - (Matt 24, 2Thess 2)
4. The 2nd Coming (the return of Christ APPEARING in the air) (Rev 19, 1Thess 4)
5. The resurrection of the Righteous (John 5, Rev 20, 1Thess 4) "which is the FIRST resurrection".
6. Saints raptured up in the air to be with Christ (1Thess 4)

7. The literal millennium - (Rev 20)
8. The 2nd resurrection (John 5, Rev 20) of "wicked only" over whom the 2nd death DOES have power.
9. The Lake of Fire event (Rev 20)
10. The New heavens and New Earth (Rev 21)

Exactly as the Bible described it - in the same order -- all literally true.

Resurrection Counting

Some are asking why John writing at Patmos - looking into the future -- is seeing the Rev 20 event at the Rev 19 2nd coming as the "FIRST resurrection".

They wonder why that is the FIRST resurrection in the future for NT saints.

They ask Why John looking into the future at "things which must shortly come to pass" did not see - "The resurrection of Christ" and also the OT saints raised in Matt 27 or the resurrection of Jarius' daughter etc.

Yet it is actually quote obvious and clear why those PAST resurrections do not appear as THE FIRST one in the FUTURE as John looks down to the end of time.

 

Did you "overlook" this part of the verses you posted??

"WHO" is this "HE" that must be "taken out of the way", before the AC is revealed??

"WHO" is in the world who is "GREATER THAN SATAN"??? (restrainer)

1Jo 4:4 because greater is "HE" that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the "Holy Ghost" which is in you,

Jas 4:7 Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

If the "Gates of hell" prevail against Church saints, then both Jesus/scripture will have "LIED".

 

The Holy Spirit restrains Satan and his evil angels -- but in the near future the Spirit of God is withdrawn from the wicked as they cross the line of Rev 15. It is AFTER that point that we have the seven last plagues AND the appearing of Christ in Rev 19 followed by the FIRST resurrection (Rev 20) which is the Resurrection of the "Dead in Christ"!

As for examples of the withdrawal of the Spirit of God - it ALSO happened before the destruction of the WORLD by Water - "My Spirit shall not always strive with Man" said God. And then He flooded the earth killing all life on land.

Why do you suppose that my views on the post-trib rapture do not fully embrace and even rely upon these Bible truths?


In Christ,

Bob

 

"Resurrection" as used by the scriptures, and every place it is used, means to be "Back on earth, alive", technically, the rapture is not a resurrection, since they proceed directly to heaven, they're not "Back on earth, alive" until they return with Jesus at the end of the trib. (First Resurrection)

The Comforter was send in "JESUS'S NAME", not God the Father, "Holy Spirit".

The "Comforter", (Holy Ghost, Voice/Ghost of Jesus) is the "Spirit" that is removed, "Pre trib", then Israel goes back under the leadership of the "Law and prophets" (Two witnesses, Moses/Elijah, Holy Spirit) for the duration of the trib.

And this "Comforter" must be removed "BEFORE" the AC is revealed, at the "START" of the trib, hence "pre trib rapture".

Here's how scripture describes events.

 

Resurrection means "Raising the dead to life" -- it says nothing about "and then making them stay on earth".

Christ Himself was raised from the dead AND THEN went to heaven.

Well it does mean to be alive - and the resurrection does take place ON earth - as we see in the case of Christ --

1Cor 15 "Christ the first fruits and after that those that are Christs at His appearing" --

"For the DEAD IN CHRIST shall RISE FIRST and after that we who are ALIVE and REMAIN shall be caughtup UP together with them IN THE AIR to meet Christ" 1Thess 4.

ON the contrary - it IS a resurrection just like the Resurrection of Christ - raised from the dead AND THEN taken up to heaven!

Or is it your claim that Christ was not technically raised from the dead?

As long as Christians can agree on the basic point that CHRIST was really raised from the dead then the FIRST RESURRECTION shown in Rev 20 is in fact the resurrection of the saints IN THE SAME way Christ was raised -- Coming to life AND THEN been taken up into heaven - is the very resurrection Paul speaks of in 1Thess 4 saying that the saints should "Comfort one another with these words".

Is it any wonder that John points the saints to that SAME resurrection and calls it "THE FIRST resurrection"?!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

God the Holy Spirit is not "The ghost of Jesus". He is the 3rd person of the Godhead.

But you are right about one thing - it is the Holy Spirit that restrains evil today - that organizes the Rev 7 "restraining of the 4 winds" and will do so until the time of the end when He releases them.

That is true in 2Thess2. But 2Thess 2 says nothing about the rapture happening before the appearing of the man of sin - the lawless one --

In Christ,

Bob

 

I like to say, that I know somethings "BEFORE" I can "Prove them". The spirit teaches "too fast" for me "sometimes".

The Jews will attempt to Evangelize the whole world during the trib, and they will have the "LIGHT" to do the job.

Isa 30:26 Moreover the light of the "MOON" (Jew) shall be as the light of the "SUN" (JESUS), and the light of the sun shall be "sevenfold", (Seven Spirits of God) as the light of seven days, in the day (trib) that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

"Daniel's Book" was to be "SEALED" until the "TIME OF THE END", so pretty much like Paul trying to teach the Jews about the "New Covenant", most reject new revelations.

Our understanding today is the results of Daniel's book being OPENED", it is the "TIME OF THE END".

The "Falling away" is evident in "EVERY CHURCH", Most worship God with their "Lips", but a "SPIRIT" led/taught "HEART" is few far in between.

And the "reason" is the same one that keeps them from admitting it.

"PRIDE", Leaning on their own understanding.

 

The "TRINITY" doesn't just explain God, it also explains "SCRIPTURE".

God led Israel by the "law and prophets", (L/P) Holy Spirit.

Jesus leads the Church by the "Holy Ghost", "Comforter".

That is true in 2Thess2. But 2Thess 2 says nothing about the rapture happening before the appearing of the man of sin - the lawless one --

</font>[/QUOTE]2Th 2:7 only "HE" who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
(Holy Ghost/Comforter removed=Rapture)

8 "AND THEN", (past tense) shall that Wicked be revealed,

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, (AC)

Only "AFTER" the "comforter" is removed, can Satan have "POWER" over "All kindren, tongues and nations".

And the "Comforter" is the means by which Jesus said he would be "WITH US" until the "end of the world", no comforter in the world, no church.

 

This post points to the fact that we do need to hold fast to the Words handed down to us - but as we see in Matt 24 these are words much older than 1952!

The question is asked as to how this fits with the future predicted in 2Thess 2:1-7 where the "man of sin" causes all to fall that do not "have a love of the truth".

The answer is -- "perfectly".

In Both Matt 24 and 2Thess 2 we see the same thing presented PRIOR to the return of Christ in the air to "receive us to Himself" and take us to that "place He has prepared for us" in His Father's house.

And THEN we see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven - (as described in Matt 24 FUTURE to th writing of that Gospel).

In the same way - before the return of Christ we ALSO see the deception that is predicted (future to Paul's day)

The falling away of vs 1-4 came with the fall of the Christian church into the form of the RCC, and persecution of the saints by the church during the dark ages.

But the "Great deception" described in both 2Thess 2 and in Matt 24 that comes at the end and BEFORE the return of Christ - has yet to take place.

So to add to the sequence above ...

0. The Christian church continues -- You are here

1. The great apostacy of the dark ages (2Thess 2:2-4)
2. The Seven last Plagues (Rev 16)
3. The GREAT deception - (Matt 24, 2Thess 2)
4. The 2nd Coming (the return of Christ APPEARING in the air) (Rev 19, 1Thess 4)
5. The resurrection of the Righteous (John 5, Rev 20, 1Thess 4) "which is the FIRST resurrection".
6. Saints raptured up in the air to be with Christ (1Thess 4)

7. The literal millennium - (Rev 20)
8. The 2nd resurrection (John 5, Rev 20) of "wicked only" over whom the 2nd death DOES have power.
9. The Lake of Fire event (Rev 20)
10. The New heavens and New Earth (Rev 21)

Exactly as the Bible described it - in the same order -- all literally true.

Resurrection Counting

Some are asking why John writing at Patmos - looking into the future -- is seeing the Rev 20 event at the Rev 19 2nd coming as the "FIRST resurrection".

They wonder why that is the FIRST resurrection in the future for NT saints.

They ask Why John looking into the future at "things which must shortly come to pass" did not see - "The resurrection of Christ" and also the OT saints raised in Matt 27 or the resurrection of Jarius' daughter etc.

Yet it is actually quote obvious and clear why those PAST resurrections do not appear as THE FIRST one in the FUTURE as John looks down to the end of time. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

BOB

You are combinding two events, the "rapture" and Jesus's "PHYSICAL" returning, into "ONE", you can't do that.

Matt 24 starts off describing the "end of the world", Jesus's physical return, and the "END" of the trib, the "rapture" marks the "START" of the trib.

Jesus doesn't set foot on the earth in the rapture, we meet him "in the air", however when he returns, his foot does sit down on the earth.

Matt 24 is written to those who "ENTER THE TRIB", the church "DOESN'T".

The AC is the "FALSE MESSIAH", and "HE" isn't revealed until "AFTER" the rapture.

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: (as being the Messiah)

if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. (as being the Messiah)

Let me explain something about the "ELECT".

The church is chosen on a "WHOSOEVER WILL" basis.

However, due to the promises made to Abraham, Jews are "ELECT", even being "ENEMIES OF THE GOSPEL",

No Gentile has any hope of being saved in the future due to the promises made to Abraham, as the Jews do.

So "WHO" is this "ELECT" that is almost "FOOLED" into believing the AC is the Messiah, it's the same ones who require "Signs and wonders" to believe, (Jews) that's why the AC produces the "signs and wonders".

Joh 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign,

Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

These verses in Matt 24 "ARE NOT" written to/about the Church, but to the JEWS.

The Church is attending the "Lamb's marriage supper" in heaven while the trib takes place here on earth.

Israel is "blinded" until the "Fulness of the Gentiles" (Church rapture) is over.

 

I am just showing that this is what the Bible says.

Jesus said in John 14 "I WILL COME AGAIN and receive you unto MYSELF. When He "COMES AGAIN" it will be physical, real, literal.

Believe it or not.

Matt 24 starts off describing events BEFORE the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Matt 24 never says "rapture marks ths START of Trib". In fact -- it does not follow that sequence at all.

I have shown the sequence in Matt 24 -- it is Trib THEN the appearing of Christ when all see Him.

That is true. Matt 24 does not present Jesus as setting foot on earth after the tribulation.

1Thess 4 has the saints going up to meet Christ and going to heaven as Christ promised in John 14 "I GO to prepare a place for you - I WILL come again and receiv you (up) to Myself" -- He takes all the saints to heaven when He returns.

And Matt 24 is simply pointing to that great event the RETURN of Christ -- showing that it FOLLOWS AFTER the tribulation.

Which is the point I have been making.

Matt 24 is spoken to Christ's disciples - they all died almost 2000 years ago.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Me4Him,

Read Matthew 24 is not difficult for you. 12 believers of Christ, asked Christ, what's the signs of the end of age, and His coming. They did not ask for two comings. Two comings unheard to them. Two comings is not teaching find anywhere in the Scripture.

Christ lectured to them, He told them, these signs must come to pass first, and face persecutions before His coming. Also, He spoken of the only one coming at the end of age.

No way that you can find any hint in Matthew 24 shows pretrib coming like as "secert coming".

Pretribs deny Matt. 24:29-31 is the clear passage saying that His coming shall be after tribulation comes include the gathering of the saints will be rapture after the tribulation.

Funny, pretribs pick few verses in Matthew 24, use for 'pretrib' verse such as Matt. 24:36, and 42 telling us, no one know what hour and day, when Christ comes, be watch and be ready. Posttribs agree with Matt. 24:36, & 42 is speakijg of be prepared, be ready for HIS COMING, we do not know when His coming shall be. We can do is be watch and be ready all the time. Matt. 24:36, & 42 do not give a hint, this is a 'pretrib', because Christ does not saying that He shall come back before tribulation. But, Christ tells us He shall come back AFTER tribulation - Matt. 24:29.

Present verses of 'pretrib' coming of Christ from the Bible is difficult, because all are silence and flaws. Posttrib coming easily shown from the Bible with many passages. Early Christians believed Christ shall come by follow after the signs, tribulations, and persecutions, because of what the Bible saying so.

Why cannot you accept the clearing teaching from the Bible saying that Christ shall come again after the tribulation?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!