2ed of 2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

[Ed Edwards]

Matthew 24:14 (HCSB):

This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed
in all the world as a testimony to all nations.
And then the end will come.


Items quoted from THE ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD,
1991-1992 Edition (Tyndale, 1990), page 305+.

61AD - Colossians 1:6 (HCSB):
the gospel that has come to you. It is bearing fruit
and growing all over the world, just as it has
among you since the day you heard it and recognized
God's grace in the truth.

c. 140AD - Hermas writes: "The Son of God ... has
been preached to the ends of the earth" (Shepherd
of Hermas).

197AD - Tertullian (c160-222) ... writes ... "There
is no nation indeed which is not Christian" ...

c. 205AD - Clement of Alexandria (c155-215) ... writes
"The whole world, with Athens and Greece, has already
become the domain of the Word."

c. 310 - Eusebius of Caesarea (c265-339) writes ...
""The doctrine of the Savious
has irradiated the whole Oikumene
(whole inhabited earth)"

378 - Jerome (c345-419) writes: "From India to Britian, all
nations resound with the death and resurrection of CHrist".
estimates 1.9 million Christians to have been marytred
since AD33 (out of 120 million Christians). ...

etc.

 

[Ed Edwards]

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogotory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 3 Sept 2005;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

[BobRyan]

You have no proof at all for slicing Res 3 and 4 into TWO!!

Why not focus on the FUTURE resurrection to John's day -- the one HE CALLS "The FIRST resurrection" in Rev 20??

I think you avoid it because it would point to a POST-Trib rapture JUST LIKE Matt 24 does!

For if John is RIGHT - and the Resurrection of Rev 20 is THE FIRST resurrection (which is the one AFTER the appearing of Christ in Rev 19 and the one that STARTS the 1000 year literal millennium) then only the POST-trib rapture at the return of Christ FITS the model!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ah, I think i see what is going on.
Bro BobRyan is a follower of Darby
Here is Darby's note at Matthew 24:

//The Lord's discourse is divided into three parts:
1. The general condition of the disciples and of the world during the time of the testimony, to the end of Mat_24:14;
2. The period marked out by the fact that the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place (Mat_24:15);
3. The Lord's coming and the gathering together of the elect in Israel (Mat_24:29).//

 

[BobRyan]

The time line according to Matthew 24

1. church age continues <== you are here! Matthew 24:4-15

2. Tribulation time Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event Matthew 24:29-30)

4. rapture/resurrection event Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5

5. Millennium - Rev 20:5-end

Postrib pre-mill outline:

0. church age continues -- you are here
1. Tribulation time
2. Second Advent of Jesus event (1Thess 4, Rev 19)
2.A The FIRST resurrection (Rev 20) of the blessed and holy at Christ's appearing in Rev 19 - Is the same as the resurrection at Christ's return in 1Thess 4.
2.B. Saints taken to heaven as promised in John 14
3. literal millennium spent in heaven with Christ (Rev 20)
4. Second Resurrection (Rev 20)
5. Lake of Fire destruction of the wicked (Rev 20)
6. new heaven & new earth (Rev 21)

In this view the First Resurrection John sees (Rev 20) which is at Christ's Rev 19 appearing is the SAME resurrection that Paul describes at Christ's appearing in 1Thess 4. The resurrection of the righteous.

In this view the sequence of Rev 19, 20 and 21 is literal and plain. No gimmicks!

The question is asked as to how this fits with the future predicted in 2Thess 2:1-7 where the "man of sin" causes all to fall that do not "have a love of the truth".

The answer is -- "perfectly".

In Both Matt 24 and 2Thess 2 we see the same thing presented PRIOR to the return of Christ in the air to "receive us to Himself" and take us to that "place He has prepared for us" in His Father's house.

In Matt 24 we read this

23 "" Then if anyone says to you, "[/b]Behold, here is the Christ[/b],' or " There He is,' do not believe him.
24 ""For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
25 ""Behold, I have told you in advance.

And THEN we see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven - (as described in Matt 24 FUTURE to th writing of that Gospel).

In the same way - before the return of Christ we ALSO see the deception that is predicted (future to Paul's day)

2Thess 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

The falling away of vs 1-4 came with the fall of the Christian church into the form of the RCC, and persecution of the saints by the church during the dark ages.

But the "Great deception" described in both 2Thess 2 and in Matt 24 that comes at the end and BEFORE the return of Christ - has yet to take place.

So to add to the sequence above ...

0. The Christian church continues -- You are here

1. The great apostacy of the dark ages (2Thess 2:2-4)
2. The Seven last Plagues (Rev 16)
3. The GREAT deception - (Matt 24, 2Thess 2)
4. The 2nd Coming (the return of Christ APPEARING in the air) (Rev 19, 1Thess 4)
5. The resurrection of the Righteous (John 5, Rev 20, 1Thess 4) "which is the FIRST resurrection".
6. Saints raptured up in the air to be with Christ (1Thess 4)

7. The literal millennium - (Rev 20)
8. The 2nd resurrection (John 5, Rev 20) of "wicked only" over whom the 2nd death DOES have power.
9. The Lake of Fire event (Rev 20)
10. The New heavens and New Earth (Rev 21)

Exactly as the Bible described it - in the same order -- all literally true.

Resurrection Counting

Some are asking why John writing at Patmos - looking into the future -- is seeing the Rev 20 event at the Rev 19 2nd coming as the "FIRST resurrection".

They wonder why that is the FIRST resurrection in the future for NT saints.

They ask Why John looking into the future at "things which must shortly come to pass" did not see - "The resurrection of Christ" and also the OT saints raised in Matt 27 or the resurrection of Jarius' daughter etc.

Yet it is actually quote obvious and clear why those PAST resurrections do not appear as THE FIRST one in the FUTURE as John looks down to the end of time.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
You have no proof at all for slicing Res 3 and 4 into TWO!!

Why not focus on the FUTURE resurrection to John's day -- the one HE CALLS "The FIRST resurrection" in Rev 20??

I think you avoid it because it would point to a POST-Trib rapture JUST LIKE Matt 24 does!

For if John is RIGHT - and the Resurrection of Rev 20 is THE FIRST resurrection (which is the one AFTER the appearing of Christ in Rev 19 and the one that STARTS the 1000 year literal millennium) then only the POST-trib rapture at the return of Christ FITS the model!!

In Christ,

Bob

Did you "overlook" this part of the verses you posted??

2Thess 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed

"WHO" is this "HE" that must be "taken out of the way", before the AC is revealed??

"WHO" is in the world who is "GREATER THAN SATAN"??? (restrainer)

1Jo 4:4 because greater is "HE" that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the "Holy Ghost" which is in you,

Jas 4:7 Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

If the "Gates of hell" prevail against Church saints, then both Jesus/scripture will have "LIED".

 

[BobRyan]

The Holy Spirit restrains Satan and his evil angels -- but in the near future the Spirit of God is withdrawn from the wicked as they cross the line of Rev 15. It is AFTER that point that we have the seven last plagues AND the appearing of Christ in Rev 19 followed by the FIRST resurrection (Rev 20) which is the Resurrection of the "Dead in Christ"!

As for examples of the withdrawal of the Spirit of God - it ALSO happened before the destruction of the WORLD by Water - "My Spirit shall not always strive with Man" said God. And then He flooded the earth killing all life on land.

Why do you suppose that my views on the post-trib rapture do not fully embrace and even rely upon these Bible truths?


In Christ,

Bob

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
The Holy Spirit restrains Satan and his evil angels -- but in the near future the Spirit of God is withdrawn from the wicked as they cross the line of Rev 15. It is AFTER that point that we have the seven last plagues AND the appearing of Christ in Rev 19 followed by the FIRST resurrection (Rev 20) which is the Resurrection of the "Dead in Christ"!

As for examples of the withdrawal of the Spirit of God - it ALSO happened before the destruction of the WORLD by Water - "My Spirit shall not always strive with Man" said God. And then He flooded the earth killing all life on land.

Why do you suppose that my views on the post-trib rapture do not fully embrace and even rely upon these Bible truths?


In Christ,

Bob

"Resurrection" as used by the scriptures, and every place it is used, means to be "Back on earth, alive", technically, the rapture is not a resurrection, since they proceed directly to heaven, they're not "Back on earth, alive" until they return with Jesus at the end of the trib. (First Resurrection)

The Comforter was send in "JESUS'S NAME", not God the Father, "Holy Spirit".

The "Comforter", (Holy Ghost, Voice/Ghost of Jesus) is the "Spirit" that is removed, "Pre trib", then Israel goes back under the leadership of the "Law and prophets" (Two witnesses, Moses/Elijah, Holy Spirit) for the duration of the trib.

And this "Comforter" must be removed "BEFORE" the AC is revealed, at the "START" of the trib, hence "pre trib rapture".

Here's how scripture describes events.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Me4Him: //You mentioned something about the 144000 being
"resurrected Church/OT saints",
(I think) could you elaborate on that??//

I'm thinking more Messianic Jews (i.e. part of the mostly
gentile church, but the Jewish part of the Church age church).

I've seen that Chapter 7 of Revelation concerns a scene
seen in Heaven shortly after the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection (Mme4Him's 'Rapture').

I assumed that the 144,000 mentioned in the first part of chapter 7
are Church age saints who are Messianic Jews and who are
rewarded with service to Jesus during the Tribulation period.
I find nothing that conflicts this assumption.

As always, we tend to interpolate and extrapolate far beyond what
the Biblical Prophetic data will substantiate. This is
IAW (in accordance with) The defintion of 'faith' in Hebrews 1:1

Hebrews 1:1 (KJV1769):
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for,
the evidence of things not seen.

Or, as i like to say it: Faith is hope with its clothes on.

The reason that prophetic knowledge has increased since
the beginning of the protestant reformation cannot be because
we have 'new' revelation from God (new revelation ended when the
New Testament cannon was closed about 100AD).
But insite into what the prophetic writings are still increasing.
FOr example it wasn't until about 1850 (some say 1830, but they do it
to shame the man) that John Nelson Darby started using the term
"pretribulation rapture'. The process by which knowledge increases
is to sort and resort the prophecies until a combination comes up
that has no holes left in it. Sorry fencesitter mid-tribbers, but your
doctrine is incomplete. Sorry doomsday Second Coming folk (post-tribulation
only rapture-ists who are a-mill and thinks the world comes to a flaming
end at the arrival of Christ - but your doctrine doesn't even recognize
all the propehtic writings, let alone fit them together without omissions
or overlaps.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
The Holy Spirit restrains Satan and his evil angels -- but in the near future the Spirit of God is withdrawn from the wicked as they cross the line of Rev 15. It is AFTER that point that we have the seven last plagues AND the appearing of Christ in Rev 19 followed by the FIRST resurrection (Rev 20) which is the Resurrection of the "Dead in Christ"!

As for examples of the withdrawal of the Spirit of God - it ALSO happened before the destruction of the WORLD by Water - "My Spirit shall not always strive with Man" said God. And then He flooded the earth killing all life on land.

Why do you suppose that my views on the post-trib rapture do not fully embrace and even rely upon these Bible truths?

Resurrection means "Raising the dead to life" -- it says nothing about "and then making them stay on earth".

Christ Himself was raised from the dead AND THEN went to heaven.

Originally posted by Me4Him:

"Resurrection" as used by the scriptures, and every place it is used, means to be "Back on earth, alive",

Well it does mean to be alive - and the resurrection does take place ON earth - as we see in the case of Christ --

1Cor 15 "Christ the first fruits and after that those that are Christs at His appearing" --

"For the DEAD IN CHRIST shall RISE FIRST and after that we who are ALIVE and REMAIN shall be caughtup UP together with them IN THE AIR to meet Christ" 1Thess 4.

Originally posted by Me4Him:
technically, the rapture is not a resurrection,

ON the contrary - it IS a resurrection just like the Resurrection of Christ - raised from the dead AND THEN taken up to heaven!

Or is it your claim that Christ was not technically raised from the dead?

As long as Christians can agree on the basic point that CHRIST was really raised from the dead then the FIRST RESURRECTION shown in Rev 20 is in fact the resurrection of the saints IN THE SAME way Christ was raised -- Coming to life AND THEN been taken up into heaven - is the very resurrection Paul speaks of in 1Thess 4 saying that the saints should "Comfort one another with these words".

Is it any wonder that John points the saints to that SAME resurrection and calls it "THE FIRST resurrection"?!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The Comforter was send in "JESUS'S NAME", not God the Father, "Holy Spirit".

The "Comforter", (Holy Ghost, Voice/Ghost of Jesus) is the "Spirit" that is removed, "Pre trib",

God the Holy Spirit is not "The ghost of Jesus". He is the 3rd person of the Godhead.

But you are right about one thing - it is the Holy Spirit that restrains evil today - that organizes the Rev 7 "restraining of the 4 winds" and will do so until the time of the end when He releases them.

And this "Comforter" must be removed "BEFORE" the AC is revealed,

That is true in 2Thess2. But 2Thess 2 says nothing about the rapture happening before the appearing of the man of sin - the lawless one --

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen, Brother Me4Him -- Preach it!

And one of the parallel passage is the subject of this thread:
2 Thessalonians Chapter 2:
---------------------------------------------------------


The Thessalonians were familiar with
this saying of Jesus which we now find
recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.

But some said of their friend "He got
sick and died before Jesus came to
get him, poor soul."

Paul addresses this problem in
a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
one of the most comforting passages in the
Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning those who have fallen
asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so God will bring with Him
those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means
precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up (raptured)
together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
brethren, you have no need that I should
write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
so that this Day should overtake
you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation through our
Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
one another, just as you also are doing.

Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
in a second letter:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition,

The falling away that comes first
is the Rapture!
Then the man of sin is revealed, the
antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
begins.

While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
English versions before the KJV used a
form of "departure" - again, the idea of
someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
not come, except there come a departing first, and that
that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,


There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
the rapture.
Here are some things that could happen
before the rapture but they do NOT
have to happen.

1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
(the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
Tribulation period)
3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
on Mount Moriah north of and alongside
the Dome of the Rock.

But again, these things do not HAVE
TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
happen after the rapture; they could happen
before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
rapture.

----------------------------------------------

Me4Him: //And this "Comforter" must be removed "BEFORE" the AC is revealed,//

BobRyan: //That is true in 2Thess2. But 2Thess 2 says nothing about
the rapture happening before the appearing of
the man of sin - the lawless one -- //

Tee Hee, 2 Thess 2:1-3 is the PROOF TEXT for the pretribulation rapture

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Me4Him: //You mentioned something about the 144000 being
"resurrected Church/OT saints",
(I think) could you elaborate on that??//

I'm thinking more Messianic Jews (i.e. part of the mostly
gentile church, but the Jewish part of the Church age church).

I've seen that Chapter 7 of Revelation concerns a scene
seen in Heaven shortly after the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection (Mme4Him's 'Rapture').

I assumed that the 144,000 mentioned in the first part of chapter 7
are Church age saints who are Messianic Jews and who are
rewarded with service to Jesus during the Tribulation period.
I find nothing that conflicts this assumption.

As always, we tend to interpolate and extrapolate far beyond what
the Biblical Prophetic data will substantiate. This is
IAW (in accordance with) The defintion of 'faith' in Hebrews 1:1

Hebrews 1:1 (KJV1769):
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for,
the evidence of things not seen.

Or, as i like to say it: Faith is hope with its clothes on.

I like to say, that I know somethings "BEFORE" I can "Prove them". The spirit teaches "too fast" for me "sometimes".

The Jews will attempt to Evangelize the whole world during the trib, and they will have the "LIGHT" to do the job.

Isa 30:26 Moreover the light of the "MOON" (Jew) shall be as the light of the "SUN" (JESUS), and the light of the sun shall be "sevenfold", (Seven Spirits of God) as the light of seven days, in the day (trib) that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

The reason that prophetic knowledge has increased since
the beginning of the protestant reformation cannot be because
we have 'new' revelation from God (new revelation ended when the
New Testament cannon was closed about 100AD).
But insite into what the prophetic writings are still increasing.
FOr example it wasn't until about 1850 (some say 1830, but they do it
to shame the man) that John Nelson Darby started using the term
"pretribulation rapture'. The process by which knowledge increases
is to sort and resort the prophecies until a combination comes up
that has no holes left in it.

"Daniel's Book" was to be "SEALED" until the "TIME OF THE END", so pretty much like Paul trying to teach the Jews about the "New Covenant", most reject new revelations.

Our understanding today is the results of Daniel's book being OPENED", it is the "TIME OF THE END".

The "Falling away" is evident in "EVERY CHURCH", Most worship God with their "Lips", but a "SPIRIT" led/taught "HEART" is few far in between.

And the "reason" is the same one that keeps them from admitting it.

"PRIDE", Leaning on their own understanding.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
[QB] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
The Comforter was send in "JESUS'S NAME", not God the Father, "Holy Spirit".

The "Comforter", (Holy Ghost, Voice/Ghost of Jesus) is the "Spirit" that is removed, "Pre trib",

God the Holy Spirit is not "The ghost of Jesus". He is the 3rd person of the Godhead.

But you are right about one thing - it is the Holy Spirit that restrains evil today - that organizes the Rev 7 "restraining of the 4 winds" and will do so until the time of the end when He releases them.

The "TRINITY" doesn't just explain God, it also explains "SCRIPTURE".

God led Israel by the "law and prophets", (L/P) Holy Spirit.

Jesus leads the Church by the "Holy Ghost", "Comforter".

And this "Comforter" must be removed "BEFORE" the AC is revealed,

That is true in 2Thess2. But 2Thess 2 says nothing about the rapture happening before the appearing of the man of sin - the lawless one --

</font>[/QUOTE]2Th 2:7 only "HE" who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
(Holy Ghost/Comforter removed=Rapture)

8 "AND THEN", (past tense) shall that Wicked be revealed,

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, (AC)

Only "AFTER" the "comforter" is removed, can Satan have "POWER" over "All kindren, tongues and nations".

And the "Comforter" is the means by which Jesus said he would be "WITH US" until the "end of the world", no comforter in the world, no church.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen, Brother Me4Him -- Preach it LIKE IT IS GOING TO BE!

2Th 2:15-17 (KJV1611 Edition):
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions
which yee haue beene taught, whether by word or our Epistle.
16 Now our Lorde Iesus Christ himselfe, and God euen our Father,
which hath loued vs, and hath giuen vs euerlasting
consolation, and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in euery good
word and worke.

The purpose of the study of Bible eschatology is to
establish us in every good word and every good work.
We were saved to do good works.

I was taught in 1952 when i was saved about the pretribulation
rapture/reurrection. I've stood fast. Now it is 2005 and
i'm still looking for Jesus to come get me BEFORE THE
TRIBULATION PERIOD. Amen!

 

[BobRyan]

This post points to the fact that we do need to hold fast to the Words handed down to us - but as we see in Matt 24 these are words much older than 1952!

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
The time line according to Matthew 24

1. church age continues &lt;== you are here! Matthew 24:4-15

2. Tribulation time Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event Matthew 24:29-30)

4. rapture/resurrection event Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5

5. Millennium - Rev 20:5-end

Postrib pre-mill outline:

0. church age continues -- you are here
1. Tribulation time
2. Second Advent of Jesus event (1Thess 4, Rev 19)
2.A The FIRST resurrection (Rev 20) of the blessed and holy at Christ's appearing in Rev 19 - Is the same as the resurrection at Christ's return in 1Thess 4.
2.B. Saints taken to heaven as promised in John 14
3. literal millennium spent in heaven with Christ (Rev 20)
4. Second Resurrection (Rev 20)
5. Lake of Fire destruction of the wicked (Rev 20)
6. new heaven & new earth (Rev 21)

In this view the First Resurrection John sees (Rev 20) which is at Christ's Rev 19 appearing is the SAME resurrection that Paul describes at Christ's appearing in 1Thess 4. The resurrection of the righteous.

In this view the sequence of Rev 19, 20 and 21 is literal and plain. No gimmicks!

The question is asked as to how this fits with the future predicted in 2Thess 2:1-7 where the "man of sin" causes all to fall that do not "have a love of the truth".

The answer is -- "perfectly".

In Both Matt 24 and 2Thess 2 we see the same thing presented PRIOR to the return of Christ in the air to "receive us to Himself" and take us to that "place He has prepared for us" in His Father's house.

In Matt 24 we read this

23 "" Then if anyone says to you, "[/b]Behold, here is the Christ[/b],' or " There He is,' do not believe him.
24 ""For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
25 ""Behold, I have told you in advance.

And THEN we see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven - (as described in Matt 24 FUTURE to th writing of that Gospel).

In the same way - before the return of Christ we ALSO see the deception that is predicted (future to Paul's day)

2Thess 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

The falling away of vs 1-4 came with the fall of the Christian church into the form of the RCC, and persecution of the saints by the church during the dark ages.

But the "Great deception" described in both 2Thess 2 and in Matt 24 that comes at the end and BEFORE the return of Christ - has yet to take place.

So to add to the sequence above ...

0. The Christian church continues -- You are here

1. The great apostacy of the dark ages (2Thess 2:2-4)
2. The Seven last Plagues (Rev 16)
3. The GREAT deception - (Matt 24, 2Thess 2)
4. The 2nd Coming (the return of Christ APPEARING in the air) (Rev 19, 1Thess 4)
5. The resurrection of the Righteous (John 5, Rev 20, 1Thess 4) "which is the FIRST resurrection".
6. Saints raptured up in the air to be with Christ (1Thess 4)

7. The literal millennium - (Rev 20)
8. The 2nd resurrection (John 5, Rev 20) of "wicked only" over whom the 2nd death DOES have power.
9. The Lake of Fire event (Rev 20)
10. The New heavens and New Earth (Rev 21)

Exactly as the Bible described it - in the same order -- all literally true.

Resurrection Counting

Some are asking why John writing at Patmos - looking into the future -- is seeing the Rev 20 event at the Rev 19 2nd coming as the "FIRST resurrection".

They wonder why that is the FIRST resurrection in the future for NT saints.

They ask Why John looking into the future at "things which must shortly come to pass" did not see - "The resurrection of Christ" and also the OT saints raised in Matt 27 or the resurrection of Jarius' daughter etc.

Yet it is actually quote obvious and clear why those PAST resurrections do not appear as THE FIRST one in the FUTURE as John looks down to the end of time. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[Me4Him]

BOB

You are combinding two events, the "rapture" and Jesus's "PHYSICAL" returning, into "ONE", you can't do that.

Matt 24 starts off describing the "end of the world", Jesus's physical return, and the "END" of the trib, the "rapture" marks the "START" of the trib.

Jesus doesn't set foot on the earth in the rapture, we meet him "in the air", however when he returns, his foot does sit down on the earth.

Matt 24 is written to those who "ENTER THE TRIB", the church "DOESN'T".

The AC is the "FALSE MESSIAH", and "HE" isn't revealed until "AFTER" the rapture.

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: (as being the Messiah)

if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. (as being the Messiah)

Let me explain something about the "ELECT".

The church is chosen on a "WHOSOEVER WILL" basis.

However, due to the promises made to Abraham, Jews are "ELECT", even being "ENEMIES OF THE GOSPEL",

No Gentile has any hope of being saved in the future due to the promises made to Abraham, as the Jews do.

So "WHO" is this "ELECT" that is almost "FOOLED" into believing the AC is the Messiah, it's the same ones who require "Signs and wonders" to believe, (Jews) that's why the AC produces the "signs and wonders".

Joh 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign,

Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

These verses in Matt 24 "ARE NOT" written to/about the Church, but to the JEWS.

The Church is attending the "Lamb's marriage supper" in heaven while the trib takes place here on earth.

Israel is "blinded" until the "Fulness of the Gentiles" (Church rapture) is over.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
BOB

You are combinding two events, the "rapture" and Jesus's "PHYSICAL" returning, into "ONE", you can't do that.

Actually he can do that.
He has the right in Christ to be wrong as
often as he wishes.

------------------
Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
Millennial Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.

1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
(John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)

2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
(Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
(1 Thess 4:16-17)
3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
(Rev 19:6-14)

4R. end of the Gentile Age
(Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
(Revelation 19)

5R. Tribulation period begins
5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
(1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
(Rev 6:12-17)

7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
(1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
(Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

8R. Focus: Lord and Church
(1 Thess 4:13-18)
8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
(Romans 11)

9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
judgement.

11R. Time of joy. (1Thessalonians 4:17-18)
11SC. Time of sorrow. (Matthew 24:30)

12R. relative peace and prosperity. (Lk.17:26-30).
12SC. the worst war the world has ever seen. (Mt.24:21,22).

13R. Christians are promised they will be delivered
-- from the wrath to come
13SC. Israeli are told to flee the wrath to come
------------------------

BTW, these two events happen the same
prophetic day: the 70the 'week' of Daniel,
one of the days called 'Day of the Lord'.

The rapture occurs at the start of the
70th year of Daniel 'DAY' AKA: the
Tribulation period and the coming of the
Lord in power and glory at the end
of the same 'day'.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
BOB

You are combinding two events, the "rapture" and Jesus's "PHYSICAL" returning, into "ONE", you can't do that.

I am just showing that this is what the Bible says.

Jesus said in John 14 "I WILL COME AGAIN and receive you unto MYSELF. When He "COMES AGAIN" it will be physical, real, literal.

Believe it or not.

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Matt 24 starts off describing the "end of the world", Jesus's physical return, and the "END" of the trib, the "rapture" marks the "START" of the trib.

Matt 24 starts off describing events BEFORE the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Matt 24 never says "rapture marks ths START of Trib". In fact -- it does not follow that sequence at all.

I have shown the sequence in Matt 24 -- it is Trib THEN the appearing of Christ when all see Him.

Originally posted by Me4Him:

Jesus doesn't set foot on the earth in the rapture, we meet him "in the air",

That is true. Matt 24 does not present Jesus as setting foot on earth after the tribulation.

1Thess 4 has the saints going up to meet Christ and going to heaven as Christ promised in John 14 "I GO to prepare a place for you - I WILL come again and receiv you (up) to Myself" -- He takes all the saints to heaven when He returns.

And Matt 24 is simply pointing to that great event the RETURN of Christ -- showing that it FOLLOWS AFTER the tribulation.

Which is the point I have been making.

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Matt 24 is written to those who "ENTER THE TRIB", the church "DOESN'T".

Matt 24 is spoken to Christ's disciples - they all died almost 2000 years ago.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Me4Him,

Read Matthew 24 is not difficult for you. 12 believers of Christ, asked Christ, what's the signs of the end of age, and His coming. They did not ask for two comings. Two comings unheard to them. Two comings is not teaching find anywhere in the Scripture.

Christ lectured to them, He told them, these signs must come to pass first, and face persecutions before His coming. Also, He spoken of the only one coming at the end of age.

No way that you can find any hint in Matthew 24 shows pretrib coming like as "secert coming".

Pretribs deny Matt. 24:29-31 is the clear passage saying that His coming shall be after tribulation comes include the gathering of the saints will be rapture after the tribulation.

Funny, pretribs pick few verses in Matthew 24, use for 'pretrib' verse such as Matt. 24:36, and 42 telling us, no one know what hour and day, when Christ comes, be watch and be ready. Posttribs agree with Matt. 24:36, & 42 is speakijg of be prepared, be ready for HIS COMING, we do not know when His coming shall be. We can do is be watch and be ready all the time. Matt. 24:36, & 42 do not give a hint, this is a 'pretrib', because Christ does not saying that He shall come back before tribulation. But, Christ tells us He shall come back AFTER tribulation - Matt. 24:29.

Present verses of 'pretrib' coming of Christ from the Bible is difficult, because all are silence and flaws. Posttrib coming easily shown from the Bible with many passages. Early Christians believed Christ shall come by follow after the signs, tribulations, and persecutions, because of what the Bible saying so.

Why cannot you accept the clearing teaching from the Bible saying that Christ shall come again after the tribulation?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!