2ed of 2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

BobRyan: //Why not focus on the FUTURE resurrection
to John's day -- the one HE CALLS
"The FIRST resurrection" in Rev 20??//

Alright. You use in your sentence the word 'one'. The word 'one'
has several meanings. Do you mean which of the following?

1. Why not focus on the FUTURE resurrection
to John's day -- the item HE CALLS
"The FIRST resurrection" in Rev 20??

2. Why not focus on the FUTURE resurrection
to John's day -- the number one HE CALLS
"The FIRST resurrection" in Rev 20??

3. Why not focus on the FUTURE resurrection
to John's day -- the "one and only one" HE CALLS
"The FIRST resurrection" in Rev 20??

I've never figured how the term "FIRST RESURRECTION'
came to mean 'the one and only one resurrection'
That is a real streach of the word 'first'. The word 'first'
is different from the word 'one' and they denote a different set
of things. Even Chapter 20 of Revelation shows two groups in
THE FIRST RESURRECTION:

1. those who sat upon thrones (i.e. the church age saints
rewared with the reward of sitting with Christ in the Millinnum

2. those who were beheaded in the Tribulation period.

Group 1 are mostly gentile church age elect saints
Group 2 are mostly Jewish Tribualation period elect saints.

BobRyan: //For if John is RIGHT - and the Resurrection of Rev 20 is THE FIRST
resurrection (which is the one AFTER the appearing of Christ
in Rev 19 and the one that STARTS the 1000 year literal millennium)
then only the POST-trib rapture at the return of Christ FITS the model!!//

Here is the item written so it is says what you undoubtedly mean:

For if White is RIGHT - and the Resurrection of Rev 20 is THE FIRST and only
resurrection (which is the one AFTER the appearing of Christ
in Rev 19 and the one that STARTS the 1000 year literal millennium)
then only the POST-trib rapture at the return of Christ FITS the model!!


BTW, i believe in a literal millennium that is a physical millennium.
BTW, now that i've re-written it, it is wrong. If correct understanding of
John is believed, then one of the answers is a Post-trib rapture at
the return of Christ. The correct answer is both a pretribulation
rapture of the church age saints and a post-trib rapture of the Tribulation
saints.
You see, i believe in a post-trib rapture at Christs second coming
event (to destroy the Antichrist and set up a physical millinnial kingdom.)
In addition I beleive in a pretribulation rapture.
Both Christ's comings are the same day (70th week of Daniel).
Both the mostly Gentile born-again elect saints and the Tribulation
period saints are raptured/resurrected on the same day (70th week of Daniel).
Both rapture/resurrections on the Tribulation day are part of the
FIRST RESURRECTION.

BobRyan: //The Holy Spirit restrains Satan and his evil angels -- but in the near
future the Spirit of God is withdrawn from the wicked as they cross
the line of Rev 15. It is AFTER that point that we have the seven
last plagues ... //

Help us see where 'the line' is in Revelation Chapter 15.

BobRyan: //Why do you suppose that my views on the post-trib rapture do
not fully embrace and even rely upon these Bible truths?//

Itchy ears?

Originally posted by Me4Him:
//technically, the rapture is not a resurrection, //

BobRyan:
//ON the contrary - it IS a resurrection just like
the Resurrection of Christ - raised from the dead
AND THEN taken up to heaven!

1. Jesus was resurrected, but it was 40 days before he
went to heaven

2. Y'all can sit here and vary your definitions and get lots
of words done. Why not just realize you both have a different
set of definitions and go with that. BTW, neither the definitions
of Me4Him nor BobRyan (I probably agree with Bob's defs) PROVES
the pretribulation true or false.

 

DeafPosttrib: //Funny, pretribs pick few verses in Matthew 24, use for 'pretrib'
verse such as Matt. 24:36, and 42 telling us, no one know what
hour and day, when Christ comes, be watch and be ready. Posttrib
agree with Matt. 24:36, & 42 is speakijg of be prepared, be read
for HIS COMING, we do not know when His coming shall be.
We can do is be watch and be ready all the time. Matt. 24:36, & 42
do not give a hint, this is a 'pretrib', because Christ does not
saying that He shall come back before tribulation. But, Christ tells
us He shall come back AFTER tribulation - Matt. 24:29.//

Thank you, Brother DeafPosttrib for proving my point.
I believe that Matthew 24:31-44 speaks of the PRETRIB rapture/resurrection.
Matthew 24:36 and Matthew 24:42 speak of being prepared, not dead.
Unfortunately the post-trib only theory has 99.9% of the gentile
saints dead by the end of the tribulation.
As many as 200 Million Christians might be raptured at the beginning
of the Tribulation period compared to a couple of hundred at the
end who got overlooked ???

The postribulation rapture and Second Coming Event of Jesus is
TOTALLY PREDICTABLE; the pretribulation rapture is NOT predictable.
DeafPosttrib: " ... we do not know when His coming shall be ... "
acan only be true in a pretribulation scenario.

DeafPosttrib: //Why cannot you accept the clearing teaching
from the Bible saying
that Christ shall come again after the tribulation?//

Everybody posting on this topic believes this.
There is some variation in the understanding of what that means.
Do you need to repeat it for yourself because you are wavering?

DeafPosttrib: //Pretribs deny Matt. 24:29-31 is the clear passage saying that His
coming shall be after tribulation comes include the gathering
of the saints will be rapture after the tribulation. //

Your statement is incorrect. Some 95% of pretribs do not 'deny'
but agree with you. It is i who disagree with you. And nobody
argues against my 'proof'. In fact, most people don't even understand
the literary devise: the polysyndeton.

DeafPosttrib: //No way that you can find any hint in Matthew 24
shows pretrib coming
like as "secert coming".//

Again, you are using lame debating techniques. I've been on the
Baptist board for three years and everytime the 'secret coming' or
'secret rapture' is mentioned, An anti-pretribber brings it to the board.
You demolish with great ferver a strawman copy of a man who doesn't exist.
BTW, the rapture coming of Jesus at the beginning of the Tribulation period
is LOUD ENOUGH TO WAKE THE DEAD. There are two comings of Christ
in the 70th Week of Daniel, AKA: Day of the Lord - neither one of
them is a 'secret coming'.

DeafPosttrib: //Also, He spoken of the only
one coming at the end of age.//

Show me.
I've shown you 13 differences between the two comings and i don't
reacall you ever disputing a one of them. You chant your montras
all day, but it don't make it so. God is NOT limited to one and only
one general rapture/resurreciton.

 

BobRyan: //As long as Christians can agree on the basic point that CHRIST
was really raised from the dead then the FIRST RESURRECTION shown
in Rev 20 is in fact the resurrection of the saints
IN THE SAME way Christ was raised -- Coming to life AND THEN
been taken up into heaven - is the very resurrection Paul speaks
of in 1Thess 4 saying that the saints should "Comfort one another
with these words".//

I agree that Christ was raised from the dead.
Christ was not immediately taken to heaven, he resided
on the earth for another 40 days.
Sorry, but Bro. DeafPosttrib believes in the end of the world
when Jesus comes, do you also?
This end of the world at the coming of Christ at the end
of the Tribulation period is NON-scriptural.

Say, Bro. DeafPosttrib thinks we are in the Tribulation time
right now. Does BobRyan?

Tribulation time, if the saints are left behind will have to have
millions tortured to death each day. Say that of the 2,000 Million
nominal Christians on the earth today only i/10 is a real Christian.
THat is 200 Million Chritians. And they all have to be killed before
Jesus comes back (except maybe the 144,000)
Let me see 7 years at 360 days per year is 2520 days. Round
that off at high point (or was it the low point?) of the
Chineese murders of Christians only like 600 a day were
being 'processed'. When 4,000 a day in the US start getting
thier heads lobbed off, that will be real TRIBULATION.
We are not now in the Tribularion period nor has the
world been in the Tribulation period for fthe last 2,000 years.

BobRyan: //Is it any wonder that John points the saints to that SAME resurrection
and calls it "THE FIRST resurrection"?!!//

I can't figure out what you are trying to communicate to me.
So i can't argue with you.
Are you saying that the one and only FIRST resurrection
is JESUS only?
Are you saying that there are multiple resurrections
called the FIRST RESURRECTION (as on my list).
I believe the first resurrection is any group resurrection of
the just. One such resurrrection is going to happen at the beginning
of Daniel's 70theweek, AKA: The Tribulation period.
A second general resurrection will be held at the end of
Daniel's 70th week, after the Tribulation period.


Me4Him: //I like to say, that I know somethings "BEFORE" I can "Prove them".
The spirit teaches "too fast" for me "sometimes".//

Me too. Thank you for reminding me.

I always wonder about those who say thinks like "The road
is so narrow that only 27 people can go to heaven and 8 of
them are in my local church".

On the flip side is the one who says "the devil made me do it".
Well actually there are 6 Billion people on earth and i doubt
the Lead Devil was over at your house. Probably was just
an inept 8th rank imp with an attutude?

Me4Him: //The Jews will attempt to Evangelize the whole world during the trib,
and they will have the "LIGHT" to do the job.

Isa 30:26 Moreover the light of the "MOON" (Jew) shall be as the light
of the "SUN" (JESUS), and the light of the sun shall be "sevenfold",
(Seven Spirits of God) as the light of seven days, in the day (trib)
that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth
the stroke of their wound. //

Amen, Brother Me4Him - preach RIGHT ON!

Me4Him: //"Daniel's Book" was to be "SEALED" until the "TIME OF THE END",
so pretty much like Paul trying to teach the Jews about the
"New Covenant", most reject new revelations.//

Yep, that is right. I note in Daniel 12 that Daniel teaches
one and only one general resurrection. Yet Revelation 20 obviously
teaches at least two general categories of resurrections:
the set of general resurrrections of the just called 'the First Resurrection'
and a set of unnamed general resurrections for the unjust.
But Daniel saw only one generall resurrection.

I don't use all the reasons that some pretribs use to show a pretribulation
rapture. Some pretribs say that the 7-year wedding/rewards ceremony
in heaven is needed to have time for it to happen.

1. Jesus could do it all in under a minute, If He wants to do it that fast.
But i'm hopping part of my reward is to get to 'yea!' for the
rewards that some of my fellow Christians get (Like Me4Him, BobRyan,
and DeafPosttrib).

2. In a physical sense even 7-yers is NOT enough.
Say that 1/8 of the 8000 million dead nominal Christians, that is
1000 million are resurrected. And say that 1/10 of 2,000 Nominal
CHrisians alive now, that is 200 Million are resurrected.
So we are talking an awards ceremony for 1,200,000,000 people.
Consider the 7-years (I use earth time cause that is all i know),
that is 2520 days, that is 60,400 hours, that is 3,628,800 minutes,
that is 217,728,000 seconds. That there are about 218 million seconds
to hand out 1,200 Million awards. That is about six awards each second
for all the 7-years. There isn't enough time to give out awards
in seven years to all the Christians at the Bema Seat of Christ
(AKA: Judgement Seat of Christ). I belive there will be no sin
in heaven to punish, so only rewards will be handed out, not stripes.
I don't buy the pillories of heaven running blood that overflows and
makes the Tribularion seas bloody

 

BobRyan: // ... as we see in Matt 24
these are words much older than 1952!//

Your statement IMHO seems to imply that what i
learned in 1952 didn't exist before.

Eph 1:4 (KJV1769):
According as he hath chosen us in him
before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

*Jesus chose the members of the universal church
including Ed, BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD

What i learned in 1952 existed BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
BTW, if you will search your KJV1769 for "before the foundation
of the world" read those three verses and then compare them to the
7 verses that read "from the foundation of the world"
or 'since the foundation of the world' - you will find
the promises to the Jews were made 'from the foundation of
the world' and the promises to the Church were made
before the foundation of the world. I.E. it ain't no church
parentheses - it was God's plan all the time to bless the
Gentiles IN CHRIST.

Ed: //I was taught in 1952 when i was saved ... //
Sorry, i couldn't have been taught any earlier than that.
What were you doing in 1952 that gives you the 'right' to
dispute my testimony?

BobRyan: //3. literal millennium spent in heaven with Christ (Rev 20)//

Strange, i found extra copies of Revelation 20 that a few
preterists had cut out of their Bibles. None of them had
about a millennial kingdom of Christ "in heaven". The
Bible IMHO teaches a physical literal Kingdom of Christ on
a physical earth with Jesus ruling from a physical throne of David
in a physical Jerusalem.

BobRyan, speaking of 2 Thess 2:1-4: //The falling away of vs 1-4
came with the fall of the Christian church
into the form of the RCC, and persecution of the saints by the church
during the dark ages.

Unfortunately your SDA teachngs skipped by 3/4 of the Dark Ages
church. The Eastern Orthodox and Nestoran (East Syrian) churches
were at times mightier than the RCC - the Coptic (Egyptian) churches
were also active. But due to the limited resources of Ellen White
who got her information from the RCC archives, you and i were taught
nothing of the other 3/4ths of the Church of the Dark Ages.

Another thing, I know, that most don't seem to know, but it is
avialable even through the RCC limited history:
The Vandals tribe was the westernmost of the tribes of Germany.
When the Mongol Hord pushed the Russians west, the Russians pushed
the Hungarians west, and so there was a Domino effect. The
westernmost of the tribes was the Vangals. In about 480
they sacked Rome. The Rome church was the Liberal church of the day,
the Vandals were the IFB of the day The Vandals were
apalled that the Romans still had idols (statues) right out in the
open. So the Vandals destroyed the public idols of Rome.
Even to this day, someone who tares up stuff randomly or without
good sense is called a 'Vandal'.

Anyway, 60% of the Christian martyrs come from the 20th century,
not from the Dark Ages.

Me4Him: //BOB
You are combinding two events, the "rapture" and
Jesus's "PHYSICAL" returning, into "ONE", you can't do that//

Oh yes he can
All he needs do is change slightly Revelation 20:5
from "First Resurrection" to "First and only Resurrection".
I mean, you know, just adding a mere two words to the text.
I mean, you know, like those two words "and" and "only"
are already in the Bible.

 

Here is 13 differences between two events:

By Edwards:

IMHO the two events occur at either end of the Tribulation
period.

I note nobody disputed very many of these contentions,
just a few said "NOT" which conveys the person's opinions,
but isn't very convincing to most people. Soon i'll
go through and accept as PROVED all those elements
uncontested

 

On page 7 I have a list of 5 Ressurrections that I want to talk about.
There I said: //Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.//

Here are Ed's definitions:
Rapture - the granting of eternal bodies to the living
Resurrection - the coming to life again.

Here are Me4Him's definitions:
Rapture - taking existing life or restoring life and going to heaven
Resurrection - restoring life to stay on earth.

While either set of defintions 'makes sense' trying to have
a discussion with both sets of definitions leads to dificulties.
And chances are the Bible uses at different times each set of definitions.


1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord himselfe shall descend
from heauen with a shout, with the voyce of the Archangel,
and with the trumpe of God: and the dead in Christ
shall rise first.
17 Then we which are aliue, and remaine, shalbe caught vp together
with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the aire: and so
shall wee euer bee with the Lord.
18 Wherefore, comfort one an other with these words.

Remember 'caught up' in the Latan is a form of the word 'rapture'.

By my definitions:
'The dead in Christ shall rise first' is a resurrection,
the 'we which are aliue, and remaine, shalbe caught up together'
is a rapture.

Before the Tribulation, together they make the 'rapture event',
the pretribularion rapture (He4Him's definition).

After the Tribulation,together they make the 'resurrection event',
the post-tribulation resurrection (Me4Him's definition).

To add emphasis to my definitions, when speaking of the pretribulation
event i call it a 'rapture/resurrection'.

 

Me4Him: //In the "Day of Christ", (pre trib) Jesus comes
as the "BRIDGROOM". (in the air)

//In the "Day of the Lord", (post trib, Matt 24) Jesus comes as "Lord of Lords".
(mount Olives)

//In the "Day of God", (post MK) Jesus comes as "King of Kings"
(God on his Throne, GWT Judgment)//

Amen, Brother Me4Him.
I know of several problems that need to be investigated:

1. 2 Thess. 2:2 has "Day of Christ" in some sources and
'Day of the Lord in other sources.

2. In 2 Peter 3:10 the "Day of the Lord" seems to correspond
with a physical/literal 1,000 year Kingdom of Christ. Yet it
might also refer to the war after the Millinnial Kingdom (MK)
and the 7-year Tribulation Period - in other words, 1009 years
long rounding to 1,000.

So it may be that "Day of the Lord" can mean (by context)
any of your three descriptions.

I'll have to look this over and study it. At my current rate
of study, it will take a few months.

 

BobRyan: //It is all pretty strightforward and direct.//

OTOH it is quite common for folks to think
THEIR understanding is "strightforward and direct"
and the understanding of others is complex and
convoluted. So I will agree with you. Your view
is "complex and convoluted" whereas mine is
"strightforward and direct", just like the Bible
intended