Are there Apostles today?

You have not "proved" any fact. That is not "successionist."
Look at it this way: Paul could say that he was a Benjaminite, from one of the twelve tribes of Jacob. He knew which tribe he came from even though they lived almost 2,000 years before he did.

If you are a true successionist, then which apostle have you come down through: John, Matthew, Bartholomew, Thomas, Simon, etc. Which one? If you can't say, then your theory doesn't work.
It is simply spiritual multiplication. We do not live in the apostolic age, which set the foundation for the church. The church is built upon Christ, being the chief cornerstone, and the apostles. And then we fall in place after that.

Look at 2Tim.2:2
2 Timothy 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

Again spiritual multiplication, much like the Great Commission. Timothy, Paul says, you take these things that I have taught you, and teach them to faithful men, who will also teach them to faithful men, who in turn will teach them to faithful men, etc. That is not apostolic succession. It is spirtual duplication. It is discipleship.
DHK

 

DHK......... are you saying disciples disciple other disciples?

 

Absolutely. That is what Paul did with Timothy. Both were followers (disciples) of Christ, were they not?

2 Timothy 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

 

DHK....then why did you say the quote below in your above post (*October 29, 2005 12:05 AM*)

I can't remember the exact number, close to 19 apostles just counting those who are specifically called apostles such as those mentioned above--Paul and Barnabas, apostles of Christ.

You give us the idea that there is other apostles. I see the apostles going from church to church to correct a church if there is something not right, strenghten the church, encourage the church, and to give a fresh word when the church gets stale. Sounds like a missionary to me. Some people might stay disciples (students of Christ) all their life, but sometimes you need a teacher then sometimes you need a pro-fesser(sp?) you know what I mean. Christians don't stay babes all their life at some time they grow up.

1Cor. 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

 

I prepared a post on modern apostles and found one already on the forum. My post is on a different aspect of the topic.

Apostles in the Modern Church

I realize that there are a number of people claiming to be apostles these days, particularly in Chrismatic circles. Many of these people are the equivalent of heads of denominations or ‘franchises’ of churches. It seems ‘apostles’ is used to refer to someone who performs a role similar to a traditional bishop, except he is considered super-anointed.

I have done a little bit of study on the concept of apostleship. I know many people believe that the only apostles were 12 and Paul, but from what I have read, in scripture and in history, the word has a wider range of meaning.

For example, Acts 14:14 refers to both Paul and Barnabas as apostles. I Thessalonians 1:1 taken with 2:6 would indicate that Silas and Timothy were apostles along with Paul. Some interpret I Corinthians 4 as saying that Apollos was also an apostle, since Paul was talking about himself and Apollos before he spoke of ‘us’ apostles.

In the late first or early second century, the Didache refers to various itinerant ministers that traveled from church to church in that period prophesying and teaching as apostles.

There is a historical use of the word ‘apostles’ to refer to men who brought the Gospel to new peoples and regions. For example, Gregory is called the Apostle to the Armenians. There are several others: Cyril and Methodius apostles to the Slavs and various other people groups, Anksar apostle of the North, Patrick the apostle of Ireland, and John Elliot apostle to the Indians to name a few. I recall going to my sister’s graduation from a Congregational school and finding an old hymn about sending out missionaries that contained the quote ‘Make them apostles’ in reference to missionaries that were sent out.

How did Barnabas become an apostle, a ‘sent one.’ The apostles did ‘send’ him to Antioch. I suppose one could argue that at that point he was an apostle in a limited sense. But if we look further in Acts, we see that in chapter 13, he, along with Paul was sent out to do a work. The work involved traveling from city to city preaching the Gospel. In the account, it is after Paul and Barnabas were sent out that Luke begins to refer to them as ‘sent ones’—that is, as ‘apostles’. Paul’s comment about Barnabas in I Corinthians 9 seems to indicate that Paul considered Barnabas to be an apostle just like himself.

Also notice the context in which the Gospel authors, Matthew and Mark, first referred to the 12 as apostles. Matthew calls the 12 apostles just before he records that Jesus sent them out to preach the Gospel and do various healing miracles in the cities and villages of Israel. Mark calls them sent ones/apostles after they returned. Compare this to the fact that Luke begins to refer to Paul and Barnabas as apostles after they went on their evangelistic preaching journey.

Paul made some interesting comments about his own apostleship and the nature of his authority in relation to the Corinthian church. In I Corinthians 9, he tells the Corinthians if he were not an apostle to others, he was an apostle to them, because they were the seal of his apostleship in the Lord. This is an interesting statement. The fact that the Corinthian church existed was evidence that Paul was indeed an apostle. Earlier in this letter, he explains that he had laid the foundation of Christ among them, as a wise master builder. He also wrote that they had many teachers, but not many fathers, for in the Gospel of Jesus Christ he had become their father. This seems to indicate that Paul considered the fruits of his church planting ministry to be evidence for his apostleship, and the foundation for his authority in the Corinthian church.

II Corinthians 10 gives us even more detailed information. Paul and his co-workers (we) had a ‘measure of rule’ that extended to the Corinthians, because they had gone as far as Corinth in preaching the Gospel of Christ.

Based on this, some interpreters of scripture believe that it is still possible for their to be apostles, in the Biblical sense, who father new churches through evangelism, by preaching Christ in new areas and among unreached people. Watchman Nee promoted a view similar to this in some of his writings, and apparently many consider him to be an apostle to this day. Some house church Christians hold to a similar viewpoint.

 

Where does Paul say that seeing Christ face to face made him an apostle, or that this was a requirement for his apostlesip? And if it were, how would that make apostleship impossible today?

Paul saw Christ after the resurrection. So did John. Considering the spiritual gifts the Bible says are given to the church, we cannot rule out the possibility that someone nowadays could see the risen Christ. Many have recorded doing so throughout history.

Notice that Paul never says seeing the Lord made him an apostle. In I Corinthians 9, Paul lists reasons why he deserved to be supported in his ministry, to 'live of the Gospel' just like the other apostles. He asks, Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen the Lord Jesus Christ?" One might try to argue from this that an apostle has to have seen the risen Lord, but that argument is far from airtight. These are reasons for Paul to receive payment. Paul does not say that he is an apostle because he has seen the Lord. If Paul were put into slavery, would that make him any less an apostle. Did John cease to be an apostle when he lost his freedom to imprisonment?

I Corinthians 15 shows that Christ appeared to the 12 and 'all the apostles.' But notice this happened before Christ appeared to Paul. So this statement does not mean there could be no more apostles.

So it is not clear from scripture if all apostles have to have seen the Lord. Barnabas, and apparently Silas and Timothy were apostles (Acts 14:4, 14; I Thessalonians 1:1,2:6.) There is no scriptural evidence that these men ever saw the Lord, and in the case of Timothy, if he had, it probably would have been in a post-ascension supernatural experience, as was the case for Paul. And Christ can still show Himself in this way again without returning for the Second Coming.

So your argument does not disprove the possibility of modern apostles.

 

Paul was not one of the 12. We know this because he made it pretty clear he was not. In I Cor. 15, he says that Jesus appeared to the 12 before apearing to Him. But if the gospels are chronological, Judas was dead before Jesus showed himself to the apostles (the eleven as a certain Gospel records.)

Since Matthias was a witness of the resurrection as per Acts 1, then he must have seen the risen Lord. And it was right for Paul to say that Christ appeared to the 12, since he appeared to Matthias during that time period as well.

 

Wow, you have been doing some research, Link.

If anyone wants to kind of follow up on Link's research here, the original ISBE (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia) has a great article by Orr on the subject. The revised ISBE replaces Orr's article, unfortunately.

I agree with Link about Paul and Matthias. The Bible says that Matthias was "numbered with the apostles." Who are we to say he was not?

 

I agree with Link about Paul and Matthias. The Bible says that Matthias was "numbered with the apostles." Who are we to say he was not?

Thats right ~John of Japan! Amen!

It makes since to me that there was "apostles" and then there was "Apostles".

 

"Apostles" One sent with a message (the gospel)

"Disciple" A follower (of Christ).

In the most general terms all Christians ought to be apostles (missionaries--being sent forth with a message), and discipes--following Christ. Wouldn't you agree with that?

 

Disciple in the Strongs says; (1)become a student, (2)pupil, student (3)female pupil, student.
Apostle in the Strongs says; (1)commissioner of Christ
Apostles..................;(1)commissioner of Christ, (2) pretended preacher

Websters dictionary defines.....
com•mis•sion•er \ke-"mi-she-ner\ n 1 : a member of a commission 2 : an official in charge of a department of public service 3 : the administrative head of a professional sport

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"Apostles" One sent with a message (the gospel)

"Disciple" A follower (of Christ).

In the most general terms all Christians ought to be apostles (missionaries--being sent forth with a message), and discipes--following Christ. Wouldn't you agree with that?
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I agree that there must be apostles today as there are also disciples. As long as the Lord is still giving missionarys, preachers, prophets, teachers, ect..... a message and sending them forth with it. As long as the Gosple of Christ hasn't been preached unto the utmost ends of the earth it seems theres a pretty good chance there might still be apostles. Of course I know the 11 chosen by Jesus and the one that lots were cast by the 11 to replace Judas.

 

Yes all Christians are disciples, since disciples first began to be called "Christians" at Antioch. However, there is no Biblical basis to call all Christians "apostles" or "missionaries."

I know you say "in the most general terms," but forgive me, it always bothers me when folk say that all Christians should be missionaries. It seems to lower the standard. All believers should be witnesses, but not all can be missionaries. As the Apostle Paul said, "I magnify mine office" (Rom. 11:13).

(1) As just noted and as in Eph. 4:11, "apostle" was an office of the church, not just something to call all believers.

(2) The 12 disciples were only called "apostles" after they had been chosen and sent out on a preaching mission (Matt. 10:2, Mark 6:30, Luke 6:13 & 9:10).

(3) As Paul said over and over in the introductions to his letters, he was called to be an apostle. Apostleship is a calling.

(4) Remember Paul's rhetorical question, "Are all apostles?" (1 Cor. 12:29) The answer, of course, is "No!" just as all are not pastors.

(5) There was a special Great Commission to the apostles outlining their strategy for world evangelism (Acts 1:1-8). Note that Jesus was commissioning the 12 apostles, not all the disciples. The commissions to disciples in general are the ones in John and Luke.

 

Ac 3:4 And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us.

5 And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them.

6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.

8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.

Ac 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,

10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.

I "THINK' ya'll are missing the point, the "ORGINAL APOSTLES" had "POWERS" to perform "MIRACLES" such as described above, where are these "TYPES" of Apostles today??

Other than the "impersonators"??

The "ORIGINAL" Apostles were in a "class of their own".

 

I "THINK' ya'll are missing the point, the "ORGINAL APOSTLES" had "POWERS" to perform "MIRACLES" such as described above, where are these "TYPES" of Apostles today??

I think that you missed it.......it has already been established that there were more than the "12 Apostles". Paul was the 13 one and he did some awsome things.

BTW, I don't know if it is just me but even some of the original are not mentioned personally by name as preforming miracles like others did?

 

There is no office of apostle. Christ chose the original apostles, including Paul, and that was revealed to the whole church. I do not see any revelation since the Bible that Christ is choosing apostles.

People like those in the 5-fold movement/modern apostolic reformation/dominino now and other movements say that the offices of apostle and prophet must be restored to the church today. There are even apostle and prophet schools.

 

Marcia

The Bible calls a few other people besides Paul and the 12 apostles. Please see my first post on this thread.

Me4Him

I used to moderate a forum called New Testament Church Planting. A few of the posters were involved heavily in missions work, and were into very Biblical models of church planting, primarily house church planting. Many of them were very open-minded to what scripture taught.

I asked if anyone on the forum was an apostle, and if so, had they done any miracles. The forum had been going for a long time, so I guess people felt free to talk. One of the leaders of a missionary agency involved in planting house churches in Mslim countries said he was called to be an apostle. He had planted over a dozen churches in the US prior to his work in CP coaching and other work in Mslim countries. He said he had done signs and wonders.

Another man who planted churches in England and Spain also shared that he had done signs and wonders.

Signs and wonders do happen. I know some of you do not believe that, partly because you just have not had the experience of seeing them. (Shouldn't scriptural teaching on the gifts be enough to believe that they can occur?)

You may notice that a lot of reports of miracles come from missions fields where the foundations of the Gospel are just being laid in new churches, the types of places one would expect to draw apostles anyway.

 

Please go back and read my posts here, Marcia.

I'm an independent Baptist missionary, don't believe the office of apostle needs to be restored because it there is no Scripture saying it was ever abolished, and don't believe I have any powers to do miracles other than prayer. An apostle in the Bible is simply a church-planting missionary. Not only I, but many independent Baptist, non-Charismatic, dispensational missionaries believe this.

[ November 03, 2005, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: John of Japan ]