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Are there Apostles today?
- Thread starter tamborine lady
- Start date
Snitzelhoff that is very interesting!
Wow!
As I read what Paul and the other apostles did... I thought they were like church planting evangelist sent out with a message of the good news. Now I guess I ought to check out and compare the two in the Greek.
Btw, thank you both for the insight.
As I read what Paul and the other apostles did... I thought they were like church planting evangelist sent out with a message of the good news. Now I guess I ought to check out and compare the two in the Greek.
Btw, thank you both for the insight.
What about James, the brother of Jesus; clearly the NT regards him as an apostle yet he was not one of the Twelve
prophecynut
New Member
Very good Snitzchoff.
Greek Silvanus is a variant of Silas . The "we" of 1:2 refers back to Paul and Timothy but not Silvanus who was a prophet, Acts 15:22,32.
Besides Paul and Timothy there are 8 other apostles named in Acts in addition to the prophets, Judas and Silvanus; they make up 12 of the 24 elders seen in heaven before Tribulation, Rev. 4:4.
For starters, there is at least one:
Hebrews 3:1
Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;
Since there is One Apostle, the Lord Jesus Christ, we must see what the scriptures say about what Jesus says about the apostles He appoints.
EPH 4:7-16
But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it.
This is why it says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men."
(verses 9 and 10 are commentary on verse 8)
It was he who gave some (gifts) to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.
Only the Lord Jesus can appoint an apostle. This is a true statement.
In light of this statement, you can consider if it was appropriate for Peter to appoint an apostle (Matthias) by reverting to the Old Testament model for choosing spiritual leadership by casting lots (rolling the dice, or Urim and the Thummim).
Why so many infants and immature in the Body of Christ? No apostles and prophets allowed.
Why is there very little unity in the Body of Christ? No apostles and prophets allowed.
Why so little work being done by the Body of Christ? No apostles and prophets allowed.
Why so much bad doctrine in the Body of Christ? No apostles and prophets allowed.
The gifts of the Lord Jesus to His Bride, which are Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers, are part of what has been called the Neck Anointing.
The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the Body. What connects the Head to the Body is the Neck. In a spiritual sense, the Neck is not the Head; it is part of the Body. The Neck facilitates communication between the Head and the Body.
When the neck is disabled, the body is disabled. When communication cannot get through the neck to the body, the body is disabled.
Without Apostles and Prophets, the others giftings (Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers) set themselves up as “lords” over the Bride, and “lord over” the Bride. When a leader “lords over”, they want the attention and the affection of the Bride for themselves.
These gifts to the Bride, the Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, and Teacher, are to work to prepare the Bride to be the Wife of the King, the Lord Jesus Christ. They are to function as eunuchs in relation to the Bride. (see the book of Esther)
What is the “foundation” argument against apostles?
Basically, as stated, it means that a foundation was laid by the original twelve apostles, and doesn’t need to be re-laid ever again. A casual look at the history of the church would show how flawed this position is.
The foundation must be laid in every generation. Especially where the gospel is being preached for the first time, or when the message of the gospel has been basically lost.
There have been apostles and prophets in every generation. They have been killed and martyred, just as they were in the first century.
In our generation (since 1970) most have been aborted, both in the natural and spiritual realm.
There is a restoration of apostles and prophets happening now. Some are visible, but many are still invisible, or in hiding.
We will see, before the Day of the Lord, a Bride raised up, without spot or blemish.
But we will also continue to see the gifts of the Lord Jesus, (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers) attacked and killed in our time, just as they have been in every generation.
Hebrews 3:1
Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;
Since there is One Apostle, the Lord Jesus Christ, we must see what the scriptures say about what Jesus says about the apostles He appoints.
EPH 4:7-16
But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it.
This is why it says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men."
(verses 9 and 10 are commentary on verse 8)
It was he who gave some (gifts) to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.
Only the Lord Jesus can appoint an apostle. This is a true statement.
In light of this statement, you can consider if it was appropriate for Peter to appoint an apostle (Matthias) by reverting to the Old Testament model for choosing spiritual leadership by casting lots (rolling the dice, or Urim and the Thummim).
Why so many infants and immature in the Body of Christ? No apostles and prophets allowed.
Why is there very little unity in the Body of Christ? No apostles and prophets allowed.
Why so little work being done by the Body of Christ? No apostles and prophets allowed.
Why so much bad doctrine in the Body of Christ? No apostles and prophets allowed.
The gifts of the Lord Jesus to His Bride, which are Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers, are part of what has been called the Neck Anointing.
The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the Body. What connects the Head to the Body is the Neck. In a spiritual sense, the Neck is not the Head; it is part of the Body. The Neck facilitates communication between the Head and the Body.
When the neck is disabled, the body is disabled. When communication cannot get through the neck to the body, the body is disabled.
Without Apostles and Prophets, the others giftings (Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers) set themselves up as “lords” over the Bride, and “lord over” the Bride. When a leader “lords over”, they want the attention and the affection of the Bride for themselves.
These gifts to the Bride, the Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, and Teacher, are to work to prepare the Bride to be the Wife of the King, the Lord Jesus Christ. They are to function as eunuchs in relation to the Bride. (see the book of Esther)
What is the “foundation” argument against apostles?
Basically, as stated, it means that a foundation was laid by the original twelve apostles, and doesn’t need to be re-laid ever again. A casual look at the history of the church would show how flawed this position is.
The foundation must be laid in every generation. Especially where the gospel is being preached for the first time, or when the message of the gospel has been basically lost.
There have been apostles and prophets in every generation. They have been killed and martyred, just as they were in the first century.
In our generation (since 1970) most have been aborted, both in the natural and spiritual realm.
There is a restoration of apostles and prophets happening now. Some are visible, but many are still invisible, or in hiding.
We will see, before the Day of the Lord, a Bride raised up, without spot or blemish.
But we will also continue to see the gifts of the Lord Jesus, (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers) attacked and killed in our time, just as they have been in every generation.
prophecynut
New Member
1 Cor. 15:5-8 NIV
"And that he appeared to Peter, and then to the twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born."
one abnormally born . Paul was not part of the original group of apostles. He had not lived with Christ as the others had. His entry into the apostolic office was not "normal."
"And that he appeared to Peter, and then to the twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born."
one abnormally born . Paul was not part of the original group of apostles. He had not lived with Christ as the others had. His entry into the apostolic office was not "normal."
tamborine lady
Active Member
But that doesn't prove anything about the fact that to be an apostle you have to have seen Jesus, does it?
Did I miss something?
Tam
Well yes, but no. What about Paul and Barnabas (Acts 14:14), Andronicus and Junia (Rom. 16:7), James the Lord's brother (Gal. 1:19), Epaphroditus (the original of Phil. 2:25 is apostolos), the messengers (apostles) of the church at Corinth (2 Cor. 8:23), etc.? In fact, Jesus Christ Himself was an Apostle (Heb. 3:1).
Guess what, folks. Many of us missionaries have a dirty little secret. We equate being a missionary with the Bible word apostle, simply because if the apostles weren't missionaries then there are no missionaries in the Bible!
[ October 27, 2005, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: John of Japan ]
I'm with you, Tam. This passage is the only one ever quoted to say that you must have seen Jesus to be an apostle. However, I simply don't see it.Originally posted by tamborine lady:
But that doesn't prove anything about the fact that to be an apostle you have to have seen Jesus, does it?
Did I miss something?
Tam
Oops, I forgot. 1 Cor. 9:1 is also quoted as a proof that you must have seen Jesus to be an apostle: "Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?" But these are parallel clauses. There is no Greek purpose clause here, or other words or phrases to indicate this is giving a proof of his apostleship.
prophecynut
New Member
If seeing the Lord after his resurrection was a requirement of being a apostle, the "more than 500 brothers" would also be apostles. Of course they were not, the reason for the bold print.Originally posted by tamborine lady:
Did I miss something?
tamborine lady
Active Member
O.K. I saw that!! And that's what I was thinking, if that was the thing that made them an apostle then there would have been 500 more!!
Thanks P-nut. I didn't miss anything after all!!
Tam
Tam, this is essentially what us church-planting missionaries overseas do today. I find no such missionaries in the Bible if the apostles are not such. When I became a missionary I struggled with this issue: where was I in the Bible? I came to the conclusion that I had to be an apostle--though not a special one like the original 12, who will rule the 12 tribes of Israel in the Millenium and whose names are in the foundation of the New Jerusalem, as has been pointed out.Originally posted by tamborine lady:
One of the reasons I asked was that there are churches that believe there are Apostles today, and that they go about starting churches and getting them going and then turning that church over to the congregation, and help them get/elect another pastor and then move on and do it again.
Has anyone else ever heard of this before?
Peace,
Tam
The linguistic element is interesting here, though it doesn't prove things. Apostle, coming from the Greek, and missionary, coming from the Latin (misso = to send) both mean "one sent forth with a mission."
In many groups down through the ages the word "apostle" has meant "missionary." For example, I have a biography of a great missionary entitled John G. Paton: Apostle to the New Hebrides.
Well yes, but no. What about Paul and Barnabas (Acts 14:14), Andronicus and Junia (Rom. 16:7), James the Lord's brother (Gal. 1:19), Epaphroditus (the original of Phil. 2:25 is apostolos), the messengers (apostles) of the church at Corinth (2 Cor. 8:23), etc.? In fact, Jesus Christ Himself was an Apostle (Heb. 3:1).
Guess what, folks. Many of us missionaries have a dirty little secret. We equate being a missionary with the Bible word apostle, simply because if the apostles weren't missionaries then there are no missionaries in the Bible! </font>[/QUOTE]I can't remember the exact number, close to 19 apostles just counting those who are specifically called apostles such as those mentioned above--Paul and Barnabas, apostles of Christ.
There are two meanings of the word "Apostle" used in the Bible. Often the word "Apostle" is used in the sense of "The Twelve." The context of the passage bears this out.
But there is a more general meaning of the word apostle, which has already been pointed out--one sent with a message. That is what the word actually means. In that sense every Christian ought to be a missionary. We are sent with the message of the gospel of Christ to the unsaved around us.
When the Greek word "apostolos" was translated into the Latin, the Latin word for apostle is "mittere" from which we get our English word "missionary." Thus, John is right. The word missionary has its roots in the same derivation that "apostle" does. It means the same--one sent with a message.
DHK
Hoo, boy! I wouldn't touch the "Are there women apostles?" question with a ten-foot quarterstaff in this context. You're trying to get someone in trouble, music4Him!!
However, I've known some wonderful single women missionaries (in the modern sense of the term) who do a wonderful job in women's Bibles studies, children's work, music, etc.
tamborine lady
Active Member
Now that we all can see that Apostle means missionary and also means one sent with a message, I find this scripture to be very interesting in proving that fact.
Matt 28-19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
Since Jesus was talking to the 11 when He said this, then they were to teach people what He had taught them. And those people were to be taught to teach others what the apostles had taught them. and on and on throughout the whole world, teaching what Jesus had taught the first 11.
So, from the beginning, there have been apostles going about teaching what they were taught.
There are still apostles out there doing the same thing Jesus told the 11 to do.
Fantastic!!
Working for Jesus,
Tam
Hoo, boy! I wouldn't touch the "Are there women apostles?" question with a ten-foot quarterstaff in this context. You're trying to get someone in trouble, music4Him!!
However, I've known some wonderful single women missionaries (in the modern sense of the term) who do a wonderful job in women's Bibles studies, children's work, music, etc.
