Sola Scriptura and OSAS...again

Darrell C · Jan 21, 2018

Hi Bob, hope all is well with you. Unfortunately the other thread ended right after you answered my post, so thought I would start it again.

I asked, "Explain Hebrews 10:14," and this was your response:

Bob Ryan said:
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.NKJV
14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. NIV

Heb 4:17
17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;

Matt 23
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

Unfortunately, I cannot mark this as answered because it seems you are focusing on the wrong part of the verse. Certainly born again believers are in a state of continual sanctification (Progressive Sanctification), however, my point was in regards to the context of Hebrews 10, which is that of Atonement and Remission of sins. The Writer makes it clear that the sacrifices of the Law could not make perfect the comer thereunto...

Hebrews 10:1-4
King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

However, being sanctified once (for all is an insertion) by the Sacrifice of Christ...

Hebrews 10:10-14
King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

...we are, as God promised Israel in the Old Testament, made complete in regards to Remission of Sins...

...forever.

And that, my friend, is the clearest and most indisputable statement of OSAS in the entirety of Holy Scripture.

You would have to provide a context for the other two verses, because if you imply that men lost their salvation in the Old Testament, then that will broaden the discussion, as men were not born again, nor eternally redeemed in the Old Testament:

Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

When the Promise was given, they "received" the promise of eternal inheritance.

When Christ died to obtain eternal salvation, redeem the transgressions which were under the (Covenant of) Law (which shows that men died apart from being made complete in regards to remission of sins), and give the Promise of eternal inheritance, we are looking at two different types of "receiving."

When the transgressions of the Old Testament saint were redeemed, they received the Promise they had been given.

God bless.

BobRyan · Jan 22, 2018

Hi Darrell -

Thanks for starting this thread my friend - I am glad to discuss this subject with you.

Darrell C said:
. Certainly born again believers are in a state of continual sanctification (Progressive Sanctification), however, my point was in regards to the context of Hebrews 10, which is that of Atonement and Remission of sins. The Writer makes it clear that the sacrifices of the Law could not make perfect the comer thereunto...

Notice that the text you are quoting is focused on the 'atoning sacrifice' that is completed once for all at the cross.

Hebrews 10:1-4
King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

However, being sanctified once (for all is an insertion) by the Sacrifice of Christ...

Hebrews 10:10-14

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are being sanctified.

1 John 2:2 Chris is the "Atoning sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

As God promised the lamb of God was slain for the sins of the world.

But the world is not going to all be saved -- because it was the atoning sacrifice of Lev 16 - the Lord's goat slain -- yet the work of Christ as High priest in Lev 16 -- is still going on according to Hebrews 8:1-5 and Hebrews 9.

And that, my friend, is the the reason why the Atoning sacrifice alone does not support OSAS

You would have to provide a context for the other two verses, because if you imply that men lost their salvation in the Old Testament, then that will broaden the discussion, as men were not born again, nor eternally redeemed in the Old Testament:

That's "Two gospels" -- Paul rejects the idea of "two gospels" in Gal 1:6-9 thus Gal 3:8 that same Gospel "preached to Abraham". The one Gospel includes the New Birth - as Christ reminds Nicodemus - before the cross.

Thus before the cross - Elijah and Moses stand with Christ in glorified immortal form in Matthew 17.
And before the cross - we have the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33
And we have this said in Heb 4:2 about conditions before the cross 'we have had the Gospel preached to us just as they also"

Darrell C · Jan 22, 2018

BobRyan said:
Hi Darrell -

Thanks for starting this thread my friend - I am glad to discuss this subject with you.

Glad to do so, Bob.

BobRyan said:
Notice that the text you are quoting is focused on the 'atoning sacrifice' that is completed once for all at the cross.

Actually, no, Bob, the chapter centers on Remission of Sins, not simply the Atonement in a general or historical sense.

You are ignoring what the text is actually saying. To sum it up, "The sacrifices of the Law held only a shadow of the good things to come (fulfillment/completion in Christ) and could not make the comer thereunto complete in regards to remission of sins, which is why those sacrifices were offered, for atonement and remission of sins which was temporary and had to be offered continually...

...because they could not make the comer complete in regards to remission of sins because the blood (deaths of animals in the place of the sinner and his sins) of bulls and goats could not make them complete in regards to remission of sins.

But...the Sacrifice of Christ, His dying in the place of the sinner makes them complete in regards to remission of sins...

...for ever."

That is what the text teaches, and nothing is going to change that.

Continued...

Darrell C · Jan 22, 2018

BobRyan said:
Hebrews 10:1-4
King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

However, being sanctified once (for all is an insertion) by the Sacrifice of Christ...

Hebrews 10:10-14

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are being sanctified.

1 John 2:2 Chris is the "Atoning sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

But "the whole world" is not who is in view in this passage, Bob.

Those who have been sanctified by the Sacrifice of Christ, who have been made complete in regards to remission of sins forever...

...are who are in view.

You generalize the text because the context conflicts with your soteriology.

BobRyan said:
As God promised the lamb of God was slain for the sins of the world.

This is true, but again...not relevant to the text in view. The context is specific, a contrast between what the sacrifices of the Law could not do, and what Christ's Sacrifice...has done.

The "World" is not in view, those who benefit from Christ's Sacrifice are.

BobRyan said:
But the world is not going to all be saved -

True.

BobRyan said:
because it was the atoning sacrifice of Lev 16 - the Lord's goat slain

No, Bob, that's the point, lol...the sacrifices of the Law are contrasted with the Sacrifice of Christ.

It is the Atoning Sacrifice of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

BobRyan said:
yet the work of Christ as High priest in Lev 16 -- is still going on according to Hebrews 8:1-5 and Hebrews 9.

And there is a difference between Christ's role as the Atoning Sacrifice and His work as our Great High Priest. that too is in the text:

Hebrews 10:11-17
King James Version (KJV)

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

You can try to make sanctification continual, because it is, both positionally as well as progressively (for those sanctified by the Cross of Christ), but, you cannot make His Sacrifice continually "perfecting (completing) those sanctified for ever." If you do, then what you are saying is that the Cross, the Blood of Christ...was not sufficient to atone for the sins of men.

Also note that this is the very Promise of God to man in the Old Testament:

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Again, the statement is in regards to complete remission of sins. When God says "their sins and iniquities will I remember no more," He means it.

Continued...

Darrell C · Jan 22, 2018

BobRyan said:
And that, my friend, is the the reason why the Atoning sacrifice alone does not support OSAS

But I am not the one presenting that argument, lol. You are.

The point the text makes, which I merely point out, is that we are forgiven completely and eternally through the Cross of Christ.

BobRyan said:
That's "Two gospels" -

Not at all. Salvation has always been through the Cross of Christ, and when Christ died for the Old Testament Saint, they were then eternally redeemed:

Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

We see...

1. He obtained eternal redemption for us;
2. The blood (death) of bulls and goats was physical, temporal, not eternal;
3. His Sacrifice again contrasted with the sacrifices of the Law, and shown to achieve two entirely different results;
4. He is the mediator of the New Covenant, hence we cannot view the New Covenant as established prior to His Sacrifice;
5. His Sacrifice redeems the transgression that were under the Law, thus retro-actively atoning for the sins of the Old Testament Saint;
6. That the called might receive (as in getting what is promised, not just the promise) their eternal inheritance...

...which they had not before received, even as the Writer attests here...

Hebrews 11:13
King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

They were made complete, just as it states clearly in Hebrews 10...through the SAcrifice of Christ.

Same Gospel, my friend, that was preached from Genesis forward.

Continued...

Darrell C · Jan 22, 2018

And I meant to throw this in before, concerning the retroactive redemption of the transgressions under the Law, that Paul makes the same statement here:

Romans 3:24-26
King James Version (KJV)

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Like the song says, "Nothing but the Blood of Jesus..."

BobRyan said:
Paul rejects the idea of "two gospels" in Gal 1:6-9 thus Gal 3:8 that same Gospel "preached to Abraham". The one Gospel includes the New Birth - as Christ reminds Nicodemus - before the cross.

Christ also told men to believe on Him, which was a specific command, whereas He merely told Nicodemus that men must be born again, not "Nicodemus, be born again."

Nicodemus did not understand the Lord. He first asks what men can do, when he should have looked to Ezekiel 36:24-29 and Ezekiel 39 and understood what God said "I will do."

Its a weak argument at best, Bob. It was not any more possible for men to be born again before Pentecost than it was for them to believe on a Risen Savior...before He arose again. Not even the disciples believed on Him according to the Gospel Mystery. Be glad to show that if you would like me to.

Continued...

Darrell C · Jan 22, 2018

BobRyan said:
Thus before the cross - Elijah and Moses stand with Christ in glorified immortal form in Matthew 17.

Funny thing that, that Moses and Elijah were glorified...before Christ.

We would have to conclude that Christ is not the Firstborn from the dead, or the firstfruits.

Nevertheless, let us look at Scripture's testimony of Who rose first:

1 Corinthians 15:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The glorified form was made possible through the Cross, which makes it quite impossible that Moses and Elijah were already glorified.

The New Birth is also made possible through the Cross, which makes it quite impossible men were born again before the Cross:

1 Peter 1
King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

BobRyan said:
And before the cross - we have the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33

Sorry, no:

Matthew 26:28
King James Version (KJV)

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Hebrews 10:15-20
King James Version (KJV)

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

The New Covenant is completely...new.

And established and sanctified by the Blood (death) of Christ.

BobRyan said:
And we have this said in Heb 4:2 about conditions before the cross 'we have had the Gospel preached to us just as they also"

The "Gospel" in this context refers to God's will for His people at that time. The Gospel of Jesus Christ was a Mystery at that time, and not revealed to men in past Ages:

Ephesians 3
King James Version (KJV)

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

While the context in large part refers to Gentile inclusion, it is the Mystery of Christ which was not made known to the sons of men, which means it was not made known to anyone.

This is precisely what Paul states in numerous places, and I think we have already looked at these before, but, be glad to look at them again.

The bottom line is that while men were saved in the Old Testament, it was not until Christ redeemed them that they received the promises of GOd in regards to Eternal Redemption. And we can use Moses as an example in that while he died and entered not into God's Rest, he was still saved from an eternal perspective. But now we receive those promises immediately when we are born again. And the thing to understand is that we are born again due to being immersed into eternal union with God through the Reconciliation God was in Christ to accomplish.

Once Saved Always Saved, from an eternal perspective. We can die physically through sin still, as that has not changed throughout the entire course of the Word of God (i.e., Ananias and Sapphira, those who died due to unworthily partaking of Communion), but, we can thoroughly trust the Author and Finisher of our faith, for He will complete the work He has begun in us.

God bless.

Darrell C · Jan 22, 2018

Bob, I was just curious, I thought you were SDA? Why does your icon say "non-Baptist Christian?"

God bless.

Yeshua1 · Jan 22, 2018

BobRyan said:
Hi Darrell -

Thanks for starting this thread my friend - I am glad to discuss this subject with you.

Notice that the text you are quoting is focused on the 'atoning sacrifice' that is completed once for all at the cross.

Hebrews 10:1-4
King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

However, being sanctified once (for all is an insertion) by the Sacrifice of Christ...

Hebrews 10:10-14

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are being sanctified.

1 John 2:2 Chris is the "Atoning sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

As God promised the lamb of God was slain for the sins of the world.

But the world is not going to all be saved -- because it was the atoning sacrifice of Lev 16 - the Lord's goat slain -- yet the work of Christ as High priest in Lev 16 -- is still going on according to Hebrews 8:1-5 and Hebrews 9.

And that, my friend, is the the reason why the Atoning sacrifice alone does not support OSAS

That's "Two gospels" -- Paul rejects the idea of "two gospels" in Gal 1:6-9 thus Gal 3:8 that same Gospel "preached to Abraham". The one Gospel includes the New Birth - as Christ reminds Nicodemus - before the cross.

Thus before the cross - Elijah and Moses stand with Christ in glorified immortal form in Matthew 17.
And before the cross - we have the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33
And we have this said in Heb 4:2 about conditions before the cross 'we have had the Gospel preached to us just as they also"

The big problem for Sda is that Hebrews states plainly to us that if we are still trying to keep the Law as a means to either get or keep saved by God, that is turning away from grace to a false Gospel!

BobRyan · Jan 22, 2018

BobRyan said: ↑
Thus before the cross - Elijah and Moses stand with Christ in glorified immortal form in Matthew 17.

Darrell C said:
Funny thing that, that Moses and Elijah were glorified...before Christ.

Christ said He had glory with the Father before coming to Earth -- we conclude that Christ as God the Son had glory before Elijah and Moses in the OT... but does not change any of the facts in Matthew 17. All three stand together speaking to each other - all three in glorified form.

Luke 9:29-31
"29 And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming. 30 And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, 31 who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. "

Darrell C said:
We would have to conclude that Christ is not the Firstborn from the dead, or the firstfruits.

Certainly Christ and Elisha raised enough people from the dead during their life time that they could not claim no one had been resurrected before Christ was resurrected.

"First born" is a term for preeeminance .

Christ is also the "first born of creation" but it does not mean He was created at some point before the Angels -- it just means that having "entered" creation at His incarnation He holds the title and first place..

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Jan 22, 2018

Darrell C said:
Bob, I was just curious, I thought you were SDA? Why does your icon say "non-Baptist Christian?"
God bless.

I have no idea how that got changed... I thought it had something to do with the new message board software -- my account is still the ages-old account.

Darrell C · Jan 22, 2018

BobRyan said:
Christ said He had glory with the Father before coming to Earth -- we conclude that Christ as God the Son had glory before Elijah and Moses in the OT... but does not change any of the facts in Matthew 17. All three stand together speaking to each other - all three in glorified form.

Luke 9:29-31
"29 And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming. 30 And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, 31 who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. "

But we do not equate the glory of His being God with the glorified form He arose in, Bob. Two entirely different contexts.

He did not have the body He was manifest in that was raised from the dead, in which He returned to Heaven in.

And on a side note, sort of (still relevant), I view the body He was born into as veiling His glory, as opposed to the often held concept that "He gave up His deity in the Incarnation."

BobRyan said:
Certainly Christ and Elisha raised enough people from the dead during their life time that they could not claim no one had been resurrected before Christ was resurrected.

There is a difference between being raised in glorified form and simply being brought back from the dead.

All who were raised from the dead physically all died again.

Christ is the Firstborn from the dead in a context of glorification.

BobRyan said:
"First born" is a term for preeeminance .

Again, you are overlooking the context:

1 Corinthians 15:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

A sequential context is very evident.

As I showed, we are born again by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 1
King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

BobRyan said:
Christ is also the "first born of creation" but it does not mean He was created at some point before the Angels -- it just means that having "entered" creation at His incarnation He holds the title and first place..

Agreed. Does not change the sequential context nor the explicit statement that men are born again by the resurrection.

If Moses and Elijah were glorified before the Cross, wouldn't that be a little out of order, according to 1 Corinthians 15? Is it not made clear that Christ is the firstfruits?

BobRyan said:
I have no idea how that got changed... I thought it had something to do with the new message board software -- my account is still the ages-old account.

I have seen that on another member's icon since I asked, so I guess its just something the forum does. Maybe they don't want to advertise for other faiths?

God bless.

BobRyan · Jan 22, 2018

BobRyan said: ↑
Thus before the cross - Elijah and Moses stand with Christ in glorified immortal form in Matthew 17.

Darrell C said: ↑
Funny thing that, that Moses and Elijah were glorified...before Christ.

Christ said He had glory with the Father before coming to Earth -- we conclude that Christ as God the Son had glory before Elijah and Moses in the OT... but does not change any of the facts in Matthew 17. All three stand together speaking to each other - all three in glorified form.

Luke 9:29-31
"29 And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming. 30 And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, 31 who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. "

Darrell C said: ↑
We would have to conclude that Christ is not the Firstborn from the dead, or the firstfruits.

Certainly Christ and Elisha raised enough people from the dead during their life time that they could not claim no one had been resurrected before Christ was resurrected.

"First born" is a term for preeeminance .

Christ is also the "first born of creation" but it does not mean He was created at some point before the Angels -- it just means that having "entered" creation at His incarnation He holds the title and first place..

Darrell C said:
The glorified form was made possible through the Cross, which makes it quite impossible that Moses and Elijah were already glorified.
.

Or your doctrine on that point is incorrect -- and Matthew 17 is correct.

Darrell C said:
But we do not equate the glory of His being God with the glorified form He arose in, Bob. Two entirely different contexts.

How does all this inference and parsing help the point you are trying to make? The point is not that Christ was lost before the cross - the point is that Elijah and Moses were saved and in full and open fellowship with the sinless Christ even before the cross. To the point of appearing in glory with Him.

The were saved under the "One Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9 that was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8

BobRyan · Jan 22, 2018

Darrell C said:
If Moses and Elijah were glorified before the Cross, wouldn't that be a little out of order, according to 1 Corinthians 15? .

Elijah never died according to the OT - he was translated bodily to heaven just like Enoch and just like the living saints will be according to 1 Thess 4. 1Cor 15 does not say anything at all about such OT cases.

Moses was resurrected - but as we see in Matt 17 and Luke 9 - he is in perfect company with the glorified sinless Christ thousands of years later. In glory.. and before the cross.

Both are examples of salvation before the cross.

Darrell C · Jan 23, 2018

BobRyan said:
Christ said He had glory with the Father before coming to Earth -- we conclude that Christ as God the Son had glory before Elijah and Moses in the OT... but does not change any of the facts in Matthew 17. All three stand together speaking to each other - all three in glorified form.

Luke 9:29-31
"29 And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming. 30 And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, 31 who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. "

I've already addressed this. You simply reiterate the same point already addressed. Here is the response, still unanswered:

Darrell C said:
But we do not equate the glory of His being God with the glorified form He arose in, Bob. Two entirely different contexts.

Darrell C said:
He did not have the body He was manifest in that was raised from the dead, in which He returned to Heaven in.

BobRyan said:
Certainly Christ and Elisha raised enough people from the dead during their life time that they could not claim no one had been resurrected before Christ was resurrected.

"First born" is a term for preeeminance .

Christ is also the "first born of creation" but it does not mean He was created at some point before the Angels -- it just means that having "entered" creation at His incarnation He holds the title and first place..

Again, my response is ignored:

Darrell C said:
There is a difference between being raised in glorified form and simply being brought back from the dead.

Darrell C said:
All who were raised from the dead physically all died again.

Christ is the Firstborn from the dead in a context of glorification.

Another issue your doctrine will not prevail against is the erroneous imposition of the Life Christ came to bestow upon mankind through the work of the Cross and Resurrection.

There is not a single verse in Scripture that attributes that Life to men prior to the Cross and the Resurrection.

BobRyan said:
Or your doctrine on that point is incorrect -- and Matthew 17 is correct.

...and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Not...hear them.

Moses and Elijah were still...dead. They were not resurrected physically unto life.

Christ is the Firstborn and the Firstfruits, and the context makes it clear this is a sequential order.

One more time:

1 Corinthians 15:22-24
King James Version (KJV)

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Lets look at some more firstfruits:

Romans 11:16
King James Version (KJV)

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Here we would have to say the Jews are not the firstfruit, it is open for there to be something or someone else prior to what Paul calls the firstfruit.

Romans 16:5
King James Version (KJV)

5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

Epaenetus is not the firstfruits.

1 Corinthians 16:15
King James Version (KJV)

15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints)

The house of Stephanas is not the firstfruits, another house preceded it.

Revelation 14:4
King James Version (KJV)

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

These are not the first among Israel to be sealed.

Again, a sequential context is very evident in Christ being the Firstborn and the Firstfruits. He is the first to be raised from a physical body unto a glorified body.

Lastly, I would ask you to point out where Elijah and Moses are said to be glorified in the text.

Continued...

Darrell C · Jan 23, 2018

BobRyan said:
Darrell C said:

But we do not equate the glory of His being God with the glorified form He arose in, Bob. Two entirely different contexts.

How does all this inference and parsing help the point you are trying to make?

Click to expand...

Its a simple statement: But we do not equate the glory of His being God with the glorified form He arose in, Bob. Two entirely different contexts.

And is it not fitting, when trying to understand a passage...to actually look at it? In detail?

BobRyan said:
The point is not that Christ was lost before the cross

False argument, my friend. Nothing in what I have said suggests Christ was lost before the Cross.

The point was that Christ was physical before the Cross, and glorified after the Resurrection.

Moses and Elijah, on the other hand, were dead when they died, and were not resurrected in glorified form, and certainly not before the Firstborn from the Dead Who actually made it possible for men to be raised from the dead in glorified form.

You diminish the magnitude of the Cross by making men born again and glorified apart from the Work of the Cross, and that, Bob, is another Gospel. If this is something (being made alive both spiritually and physically in glorified form) that is accomplished by some manner other than the Cross, then there are two ways men can live eternally.

That is just basic math, lol.

BobRyan said:
the point is that Elijah and Moses were saved and in full and open fellowship with the sinless Christ even before the cross.

Show me that in the text.

All I see are the two men who died meeting and talking with Christ, Who is the only one said to be transformed.

BobRyan said:
To the point of appearing in glory with Him.

So if we conclude Moses and Elijah are glorified (in a context of bodily resurrection) from the use of glory in Luke 9, then we must also conclude...

Matthew 6:29
King James Version (KJV)

29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

...Solomon was too.

So were the men spoken of here:

John 5:44
King James Version (KJV)

44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

The Disciples were glorified in the Garden:

John 17:22
King James Version (KJV)

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

As a matter of fact we must conclude men can be glorified through good works:

Romans 2:10
King James Version (KJV)

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

But wait...

Romans 3:23
King James Version (KJV)

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

...if all have sinned and fallen short of being glorified...

...how then do you see Moses and Elijah as exceptions?

BobRyan said:
The were saved under the "One Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9 that was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8

Correction: not under, but by the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

And this...

Galatians 3:8
King James Version (KJV)

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

...does not nullify the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught by Paul. We can understand and see the Gospel in Genesis, but Abraham was not privy to the hidden wisdom of God. We are told very plainly in the New Testament that the Gospel was not revealed in past Ages unto the sons of men.

Hence Abraham was justified by grace through faith, but he was not Eternally Redeemed, nor made complete in regards to his sin.

That would not take place until Christ died on the Cross, which is the first point I gave which still hasn't been addressed.

God bless.

Darrell C · Jan 23, 2018

BobRyan said:
Elijah never died according to the OT

Show me that in Scripture. I see he was carried into heaven, the sky, and that is it. We have to violate numerous principles of Scriptures to embrace such a view. One would be flesh and blood inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven. All men must die, except for those resurrected in the Rapture.

So show me where Elijah was glorified in Scripture, because that is the only way he could have survived all this time.

And consider that Elijah is said to write a letter unto Jehoram...after being caught up into heaven...

2 Chronicles 21:12-20
King James Version (KJV)

12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

13 But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a whoring, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself:

14 Behold, with a great plague will the Lord smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods:

15 And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day.

16 Moreover the Lord stirred up against Jehoram the spirit of the Philistines, and of the Arabians, that were near the Ethiopians:

17 And they came up into Judah, and brake into it, and carried away all the substance that was found in the king's house, and his sons also, and his wives; so that there was never a son left him, save Jehoahaz, the youngest of his sons.

18 And after all this the Lord smote him in his bowels with an incurable disease.

19 And it came to pass, that in process of time, after the end of two years, his bowels fell out by reason of his sickness: so he died of sore diseases. And his people made no burning for him, like the burning of his fathers.

20 Thirty and two years old was he when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem eight years, and departed without being desired. Howbeit they buried him in the city of David, but not in the sepulchres of the kings.

BobRyan said:
he was translated bodily to heaven just like Enoch and just like the living saints will be according to 1 Thess 4.

Great, all we need now is Scripture that teaches that.

BobRyan said:
1Cor 15 does not say anything at all about such OT cases.

Why would it, its not a possibility prior to the Cross.

1 Corinthians 15:50-51
King James Version (KJV)

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Two things deny your position:

1. Flesh and blood does not inherit the Kingdom of God;

2. The Rapture was a Mystery, previously unrevealed truth.

Just as the Gospel of Christ was.

So if you are ascribing Eternal Redemption to Moses and Elijah, then you are saying they were saved by something other than the Cross of Christ. So what is it they were saved by. We know its not the mythological doctrine of men being eternally redeemed "on credit," because this Redemption was was accomplished when Christ went to the Cross:

Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Old Testament Saints' Redemption was retroactive to their deaths, which denies a possibility of regeneration (also attributed to Christ (His Resurrection)) and glorification.

They were saved through Justification, but, did not go to Heaven, but awaited their Redemption in Hades as Christ teaches in Luke 16.

BobRyan said:
Moses was resurrected

Great, show me where it says that in Scripture.

If he was, then he forgot to take his bones with him...

Jude 9
King James Version (KJV)

9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

BobRyan said:
but as we see in Matt 17 and Luke 9 - he is in perfect company with the glorified sinless Christ thousands of years later.

Again...

Luke 9:34-36
King James Version (KJV)

34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.

35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

Not...hear them.

BobRyan said:
In glory.. and before the cross.

They were in the world, Bob, not in glory. Christ is the only one transformed, the Glory that was innate in Him showing through the veil He had taken on Himself.

BobRyan said:
Both are examples of salvation before the cross.

No, just examples of the spirits of two dead men, who died before Christ came to bestow life upon those who would believe in Him as the Risen Savior.

The bestowal of that life did not take place prior to the Resurrection, and in fact, prior to Pentecost, when the Comforter came and began indwelling men in eternal union. That is when men began being reconciled to God.

This...

John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

...places men being born of God after the Incarnation, and there is not a singular passage to be found in Scripture that denies this.

Not even the disciples were "believers" until Pentecost, because it would not be until the Spirit of Promise came that men would have this Mystery revealed to them.

God bless.

Yeshua1 · Jan 23, 2018

Darrell C said:
Show me that in Scripture. I see he was carried into heaven, the sky, and that is it. We have to violate numerous principles of Scriptures to embrace such a view. One would be flesh and blood inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven. All men must die, except for those resurrected in the Rapture.

So show me where Elijah was glorified in Scripture, because that is the only way he could have survived all this time.

And consider that Elijah is said to write a letter unto Jehoram...after being caught up into heaven...

2 Chronicles 21:12-20
King James Version (KJV)

12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

13 But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a whoring, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself:

14 Behold, with a great plague will the Lord smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods:

15 And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day.

16 Moreover the Lord stirred up against Jehoram the spirit of the Philistines, and of the Arabians, that were near the Ethiopians:

17 And they came up into Judah, and brake into it, and carried away all the substance that was found in the king's house, and his sons also, and his wives; so that there was never a son left him, save Jehoahaz, the youngest of his sons.

18 And after all this the Lord smote him in his bowels with an incurable disease.

19 And it came to pass, that in process of time, after the end of two years, his bowels fell out by reason of his sickness: so he died of sore diseases. And his people made no burning for him, like the burning of his fathers.

20 Thirty and two years old was he when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem eight years, and departed without being desired. Howbeit they buried him in the city of David, but not in the sepulchres of the kings.

Great, all we need now is Scripture that teaches that.

Why would it, its not a possibility prior to the Cross.

1 Corinthians 15:50-51
King James Version (KJV)

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Two things deny your position:

1. Flesh and blood does not inherit the Kingdom of God;

2. The Rapture was a Mystery, previously unrevealed truth.

Just as the Gospel of Christ was.

So if you are ascribing Eternal Redemption to Moses and Elijah, then you are saying they were saved by something other than the Cross of Christ. So what is it they were saved by. We know its not the mythological doctrine of men being eternally redeemed "on credit," because this Redemption was was accomplished when Christ went to the Cross:

Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Old Testament Saints' Redemption was retroactive to their deaths, which denies a possibility of regeneration (also attributed to Christ (His Resurrection)) and glorification.

They were saved through Justification, but, did not go to Heaven, but awaited their Redemption in Hades as Christ teaches in Luke 16.

Great, show me where it says that in Scripture.

If he was, then he forgot to take his bones with him...

Jude 9
King James Version (KJV)

9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Again...

Luke 9:34-36
King James Version (KJV)

34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.

35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

Not...hear them.

They were in the world, Bob, not in glory. Christ is the only one transformed, the Glory that was innate in Him showing through the veil He had taken on Himself.

No, just examples of the spirits of two dead men, who died before Christ came to bestow life upon those who would believe in Him as the Risen Savior.

The bestowal of that life did not take place prior to the Resurrection, and in fact, prior to Pentecost, when the Comforter came and began indwelling men in eternal union. That is when men began being reconciled to God.

This...

John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

...places men being born of God after the Incarnation, and there is not a singular passage to be found in Scripture that denies this.

Not even the disciples were "believers" until Pentecost, because it would not be until the Spirit of Promise came that men would have this Mystery revealed to them.

God bless.

How about Enoch?
Some see Elijah and Enoch as the 2 witnesses brought to earth by God in Revelation

Darrell C · Jan 23, 2018

Yeshua1 said:
How about Enoch?
Some see Elijah and Enoch as the 2 witnesses brought to earth by God in Revelation

We still have the problem of attributing glorification, regeneration, or entering into the Holiest of All (Heaven) prior to the Work of the Cross and the establishing of the New Covenant.

The proof text that Enoch went to Heaven is this:

Hebrews 11:5
King James Version (KJV)

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

It is just as reasonable to view this as stating Enoch was taken, changed from his state of living to a state of not living, and that he did not experience that death.

And that is more consistent with Scripture's teachings concerning those who died in the Old Testament than the idea that Enoch was taken into the presence of God in Heaven. Men are said to go to Sheol/Hades when they died prior to the Cross, as taught by Christ in Luke 16, and Hebrews 9-10 makes it clear that men did not enter into the Holiest of All, that is, the reality (Heaven) that the Holy Of Holies of the Tabernacle was a figure of.

That Enoch did not die and went to Heaven is also made null here:

1 Corinthians 15:50
King James Version (KJV)

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

The context of this chapter is resurrection of the dead and glorification, and Christ is said to be the first to be glorified. As I have just posted about previously, lol.

As far as them being the Two Witnesses, not really a likelihood, because that would mean Moses, who died physically, would have to be raised again in order to fulfill that ministry, then raised again when the Two Witnesses are raptured. We get into so much necessity of covering the tracks we make with one error that we are forced to consider and present many more.

I will say this: the disposition of the Old Testament Saints in Sheol/Hades does not mean that they had no access to God. Just as God visited men in this realm, there is no reason not to think He would not visit the Just in that realm.

God bless.

BobRyan · Jan 23, 2018

Darrell C said:
Actually, no, Bob, the chapter centers on Remission of Sins, not simply the Atonement in a general or historical sense.

Without the shedding of blood - no remission of sins. The sacrifice is being discussed in terms of payment for sins.

But...the Sacrifice of Christ, His dying in the place of the sinner makes them complete in regards to remission of sins...

It provides for that remission but not one single lost sinner is saved until they accept the Gospel. The wicked will not be in heaven.

Jesus is "the atoning sacrifice for our sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2

The Day of Atonement doctrine in the Bible - Lev 16 -- does not end with the slaying of the "Sin offering" but rather it ends once all the work of the High Priest has completed. Hebrews 8:1-5 tells us when Christ's work in that regard began and that it was still going on as of the writing of the book of Hebrews.

====================

The text in Hebrews points specifically to the sacrifice -

Hebrews 10:1-4
King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

However, being sanctified once (for all is an insertion) by the Sacrifice of Christ...

Hebrews 10:10-14

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are being sanctified.

1 John 2:2 Chris is the "Atoning sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

As God promised the lamb of God was slain for the sins of the world.

But the world is not going to all be saved -- because it was the atoning sacrifice of Lev 16 - the Lord's goat slain -- yet the work of Christ as High priest in Lev 16 -- is still going on according to Hebrews 8:1-5 and Hebrews 9.

Sola Scriptura and OSAS...again

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member