Sola Scriptura and OSAS...again

[Theodore A. Jones]

You do not believe Christ paid/pays the sin debt of the sinner?

Here is one passage for you to show why it does not teach that Christ paid the sin debt for the Old Testament Saint:


Hebrews 9:15
King James Version (KJV)

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

We can start with that then move on to those in Christ who have had their sin debt paid by Christ dying in the stead of the sinner.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

and even He refutes your conjecture.

Great. Give me Scripture.

"When he comes he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin"

Actually, the reference is to the Comforter, not Christ, though we can say that it is Christ because the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are One and all three are said to indwell the believer (see John 14).

Secondly, while this is truly Post Cross the statement of Christ is specific to His Return to Heaven...


John 16:7-9
King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


It is the Holy Spirit performing the Ministry of the Comforter, which is specific to this Age, bringing conviction of sin, righteousness, and judgment. This is performed in the lives of unbelievers as made clear in v.9.

AFTER! the sin of murdering him by crucifixion.

Its not murder when One offers Himself up to be slain. Only from a human perspective can murder be implied.

For your soteriological assumption to be true there cannot be the outstanding issue of guilt relative to sin remaining post of his murder by crucifixion

And that is your greatest error...you reject the Atonement.

Which is not an assumption, it is a Basic Bible Doctrine that is central to a sound Soteriology.

Exactly what faith are you of, Theodore?

but he clearly signifies himself that it does and YOU! contest what he says.

No, I simply point out that the Law in Romans 2:13 is primarily a reference to the Pentateuch, that Christ died in the stead of the sinner, and that the sin debt of the sinner has been paid by the Blood of Christ, or in other words, His Sacrifice of Himself on the Cross.

If you have a problem with such basic Christian Doctrines then you have come to the right place.

Now, before the thread closes, tell me what this...


Hebrews 10:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

...means.

I will tell you that it means that the one sanctified by Christ has been made complete in regards to Remission of Sins...forever.

Your turn.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C said: ↑
You do not believe Christ paid/pays the sin debt of the sinner?

Here is one passage for you to show why it does not teach that Christ paid the sin debt for the Old Testament Saint:


Hebrews 9:15
King James Version (KJV)

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

We can start with that then move on to those in Christ who have had their sin debt paid by Christ dying in the stead of the sinner.


Continued...

I guess you posted this because you really liked my post?

Thanks bud!


God bless.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

No! we won't. There is absolutely no possibility that you or anyone else has gained any direct benefit for himself by the sin of murder. For it was the sin of premeditated murder to crucify him and by adding the word REPENT into law after the sin of his murder it became the greater sin NOT to have the faith to confess directly to God that you are truly sorry his only begotten son, Jesus, was murdered when he was crucified and be baptized into your confession in order to be forgiven of past sins. The fact you do not comprehend is that murdering him is a forgivable sin, but by adding the word REPENT into law, "The law was added so that the trespass (of his murder) might increase." Rom. 5:20 and NOT having the faith to confess to God that you are sorry to save yourself is the sin by law which is unforgivable.
"For it is not those who just hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who actually have the faith to OBEY the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 There are no exceptions.

 

[BobRyan]

"The law was added so that the trespass (of his murder) might increase." Rom. 5:20 .

Romans 5:20 is a good place NOT to find the statement "The law was added so that the trespass of his murder might increase."

 

[Darrell C]

No! we won't. There is absolutely no possibility that you or anyone else has gained any direct benefit for himself by the sin of murder. For it was the sin of premeditated murder to crucify him and by adding the word REPENT into law after the sin of his murder it became the greater sin NOT to have the faith to confess directly to God that you are truly sorry his only begotten son, Jesus, was murdered when he was crucified and be baptized into your confession in order to be forgiven of past sins. The fact you do not comprehend is that murdering him is a forgivable sin, but by adding the word REPENT into law, "The law was added so that the trespass (of his murder) might increase." Rom. 5:20 and NOT having the faith to confess to God that you are sorry to save yourself is the sin by law which is unforgivable.
"For it is not those who just hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who actually have the faith to OBEY the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 There are no exceptions.

If one seek to be declared righteous by keeping the Law they will die in their sins.

No man kept the Law in any Age of Scripture, that too is just a Basic Bible Principle.

You will not be saved because you are "sorry Jesus was murdered," but because you believe that He died for you, and took upon you the sin debt you owe. That is the only way you are going to obtain eternal life:


John 6:47-53
King James Version (KJV)

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


Christ came that men might become the sons of God through Reconciliation and Regeneration:


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


The Law cannot give life:


Galatians 3:21-25
King James Version (KJV)

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


Now, seeing you refuse to address anything that is said, that will be my last post to you, Theodore. If you want to preach about being made righteous through the Law, that is your right, but, you should at least have the decency to present a Scriptural Basis for your doctrine and respond to the challenges to your teaching.


God bless.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

Great. Give me Scripture.




Actually, the reference is to the Comforter, not Christ, though we can say that it is Christ because the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are One and all three are said to indwell the believer (see John 14).

Secondly, while this is truly Post Cross the statement of Christ is specific to His Return to Heaven...


John 16:7-9
King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


It is the Holy Spirit performing the Ministry of the Comforter, which is specific to this Age, bringing conviction of sin, righteousness, and judgment. This is performed in the lives of unbelievers as made clear in v.9.




Its not murder when One offers Himself up to be slain. Only from a human perspective can murder be implied.




And that is your greatest error...you reject the Atonement.

Which is not an assumption, it is a Basic Bible Doctrine that is central to a sound Soteriology.

Exactly what faith are you of, Theodore?




No, I simply point out that the Law in Romans 2:13 is primarily a reference to the Pentateuch, that Christ died in the stead of the sinner, and that the sin debt of the sinner has been paid by the Blood of Christ, or in other words, His Sacrifice of Himself on the Cross.

If you have a problem with such basic Christian Doctrines then you have come to the right place.

Now, before the thread closes, tell me what this...


Hebrews 10:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

...means.

I will tell you that it means that the one sanctified by Christ has been made complete in regards to Remission of Sins...forever.

Your turn.


God bless.

No statement in the Bible affirms that Jesus sacrificed himself. If he would have sacrificed himself it would have been an act of suicide. Acts 7:52 "of whom ye have now been the betrayers and murderers:" Succinctly by what is written he was murdered by crucifixion relative to the existence of malice aforethought. re. the deliberate act of first degree murder was the actual cause of his death according to the scripture.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

If one seek to be declared righteous by keeping the Law they will die in their sins.

No man kept the Law in any Age of Scripture, that too is just a Basic Bible Principle.

You will not be saved because you are "sorry Jesus was murdered," but because you believe that He died for you, and took upon you the sin debt you owe. That is the only way you are going to obtain eternal life:


John 6:47-53
King James Version (KJV)

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


Christ came that men might become the sons of God through Reconciliation and Regeneration:


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


The Law cannot give life:


Galatians 3:21-25
King James Version (KJV)

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


Now, seeing you refuse to address anything that is said, that will be my last post to you, Theodore. If you want to preach about being made righteous through the Law, that is your right, but, you should at least have the decency to present a Scriptural Basis for your doctrine and respond to the challenges to your teaching.


God bless.

You will not be missed.

 

[Darrell C]

No statement in the Bible affirms that Jesus sacrificed himself.

Except for these:


John 12:27
King James Version (KJV)

27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.




Hebrews 2:9-10
King James Version (KJV)

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.



Hebrews 10:5-9
King James Version (KJV)

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.


John 10:17-19
King James Version (KJV)

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.



Isaiah 53:6-10
King James Version (KJV)

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.


Not sure why you reject the Lord's Own statement. Read it again:


John 10:17-19
King James Version (KJV)

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

If he would have sacrificed himself it would have been an act of suicide.

Horse feathers.

It was God's Plan from before the world came into being:


Revelation 13:8
King James Version (KJV)

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


Again, the Lord refutes your doctrine:


John 10:17-19
King James Version (KJV)

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Acts 7:52 "of whom ye have now been the betrayers and murderers:"

As I said, it can be called murder from a human perspective. However, that does not change the fact that the Lord Himself took upon himan flesh that He might die in the stead of the sinner.

That is just Basic Christian Doctrine.

And again...

...what religion are you of?

Succinctly by what is written he was murdered by crucifixion relative to the existence of malice aforethought. re. the deliberate act of first degree murder was the actual cause of his death according to the scripture.

Great, the only problem is...you don't present any Scripture.

You are denying what Christ states clearly in favor of your religion. You simply are not going to change the fact that the Lord stattes no man took His life, but that He laid it down of His Own will:


John 10:17-19
King James Version (KJV)

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

You will not be missed.

Of course I will be, bud.

You just don't know that yet either...




God bless.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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[Yeshua1]

Don't delude yourself. I am fully aware of the soteriological paradigm you hope in and pontificate. But Paul's statement in Rom. 2:13 is not a falsehood and it exposes all soteriological heresy. There is no possibility the sin of murdering Jesus Christ has resulted in the direct benefit you assert of 'dying in your place', 'paying your sin debt' and even He refutes your conjecture. "When he comes he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin" AFTER! the sin of murdering him by crucifixion. For your soteriological assumption to be true there cannot be the outstanding issue of guilt relative to sin remaining post of his murder by crucifixion, but he clearly signifies himself that it does and YOU! contest what he says.

You seem to be denying Pauline Justification here, correct? Jesus death was to atone for personal sins, past/present/future, and faith in Him is the moment God Himself declares the sinner has passed from spiritual death to eternal spiritual life in Christ, correct?

 

[delizzle]

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Revelation 22:19 KJV

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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