the Second Death

Ray -

I don't mean to argue that if a Christian sins after being saved that they are instantly lost. I mean to say that if a Christian chooses a life of rebellion as in the case of the examples given in 1Cor 6 - then they do not go to heaven even though they were at one time saved, cleansed washed.

Rather as Matt 18 points out - their forgiveness is revoked and they owe all the debt that had been initial forgiven for them.

(Recall that I am not the author of Matt 18 or 1Cor 6 so I am simply reporting the news not making it).

Here we have found a harsh, critical severe condemnation of the church. No escaping it. No editing it. No denying it. This point can not be refuted.

Clearly Paul is “speaking to the shame of the Christians in Corinth”. He accuses them of defrauding the saints – defrauding each other. He claims they are not wise enough – mature enough – righteous enough to settle their own disputes. The focus of Paul’s argument is FAR from “Have no worries, trouble not your heart – there is nothing here to really worry about”.

The entire focus of this chapter is to “get their attention” warn them of danger. Judge them as being in error and demand that they return to a right course of action.

This point is incredibly obvious. It is the context, purpose, focus for the chapter and the following warning Paul gives – is given to demonstrate” the severity of the problem. He is not “changing subjects” or coming up with a “comforting thought”.

Paul appeals to the fact that a life of rebellion does NOT result in the inheritance of eternal life! This is the way he chooses to highlight his point about their needing to repent of the sin he has just charged them with.

Then Paul gets to an even more dangerous warning “do not be deceived”. He claims that they are either deceiving themselves or being deceived by someone else into thinking that they CAN engage in such acts of rebellion and STILL inherit eternal life. Indeed many today fall into that same trap – arguing that WHILE engaged in that life they are STILL going to inherit eternal life “anyway”. As if God is trapped in some kind of lock-box and can not apply to THEM – that which HE says is applicable to ALL. But Paul tells THEM not to be deceived on this very point. The very point they ARE deceiving themselves into thinking!
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Paul fully uncovers the high level of severity in that shocking condemnation by warning the church that those who practice these things “will not inherit the kingdom of heaven”. His statement is not claiming that they are already going to hell – rather he is warning them that the course they are pursuing is getting them to this same point. He is urging that they cease. He points out that to continue is to fail of our inheritance!

This is the same format that we find ALL of Paul’s warnings about failure to persevere.

He encourages them to follow their salvation heritage – as they were washed, set apart, justified and reconciled to Christ – so they should turn from this great evil and go back to the path Christ sete before them (Created unto good works that God purposed before hand that you should walk in them”. He leaves them no room to answer back “we don’t have to worry about that – even if we do fall into those sins WE won’t lose OUR inheritance so be quiet”

In Christ,

Bob

 

Agreed.

Agreed. It does not say that they were saved or lost at death - but it is reasonable to assume that many of them may still have been saved even though "taken" - "for THIS reason many are sick and weak and a number sleep"

And this is in explicit regard to their way of celeberating the Lord's Table.

But in 1Cor 6 we have an entirely different problem being addressed just as in 1Cor 5 we have yet a different problem and in 1Cor 15 another issue entirely.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Because of the promises God made to Abraham, and the Jews rejecting Jesus, God does turn them over to satan for the destruction of their flesh, but still save their souls.

And what he'll do to Israel, he'll do to a "Christian", you can't say that "REBELLION/SALVATION" doesn't "MIX".

Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, THEY (Jews) are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,

Those saved during the trib will still have to "Chose Jesus", but rather than the "Spiritual death" we experience when our "old man" is crucified, they will experience a "Physical death" for Salvation, this is the "Chastisement" for "Rejecting Jesus", those who haven't rejected him, are rapture pre trib.

The bottom line is this, God knows "YOUR FUTURE" when he saved you, obedient/disobedient, and when God decides to "GRANT GRACE", it's "FOREVER".

 

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Bob, let me ask you a couple of questions.

1. Can we be a temple of God, "WITHOUT" first being "saved"??

2. Which is the "HIM" God will destroy, Flesh/Soul??

3. If it's the "Soul", then Jesus didn't pay for all our sins, we're still "under the law", and Jesus did not secure "eternal redemption" for us.

4. If it the "flesh", then the "HIM" would be the "OLD MAN" of flesh "resurrected".

We can "prolong/shorten" our physical life by our actions.

De 5:16 Honour thy father (God) and thy mother, (church) as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged,

De 6:2 That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.

Actually, we will "prolong" our life "on earth" by a 1000 years, at least, the Mill reign.

 

No.

Personal pronouns are aLWAYS assigned to the PERSON not something the PERSON has.

For example "HIS hair was cut" or "His hand hurt" or "His mind was clouded" - the "thing" is the physical body - but the PERSON has the 'thing' and is always addressed in the form of the personal pronoun.

In John 11 Christ does not say "John's body sleeps" He says that John HIMSELF - the PERSON sleeps.

That is not in the Bible. You are making something up "As if" it was in scripture. It is not.

What the Bible shows in Matt 18 is "forgiveness revoked" that means the SAME offense that IS COVERED and in fact WAS FORGIVEN - is returned and OWED by the one justified, saved, forgiven!

Your reasoning is ignoring the entire God-ordained Bible-concept of "Atonement".

That is true. If we ever DID have a case where the THING that we HAVE (our physical tent - earthly TENT in 2Cor 5 for example) is given the personal pronoun "HE" then that body-person the subject - it is not. And as 2Cor 5 points out "the WE" is always in trast to the "IT" of the TENT.

No mention here of 1000 years.

And "still" a consistent contrast between the PERSON and the THINGS that the person has -

No mentione of the 1000 years in that text.

No place in all of scripture stating that we spend the millenium (literal 1000 years of course) on earth.

In Christ,

Bob

 

#1. You are charged with ALL sins that you commit and Christ dies for ALL.

But this is not a grocery store. You did not walk out with the goods! You are still on earth and God is still right about the ATONEMENT model being the correct one - not the grocery model.

#2. That means that in Matt 18 when Christ HIMSELF says that forgiveness is revoked - you can believe it!

That means that in Romans 11 when God says that we are to 'fear' and that we stand only by our faith and that "IF God did not spare them neither will He spare you" We can believe it!

#3. EVEN after becoming a Christian "IF we CONFESS our sins HE IS faithful and just to FORGIVE US AND to CLEANSE us"... "These things I write that you SIN NOT - but if anyone does sin we have AN ADVOCATE with the FAther".

Notice that text does not say "IF anyone DOES sin - his sins are already forgiven by the PREVIOUS work of our advocate so pay no attention"

Making up a story about WHY God can not do what HE SAYS He does in Matt 18 and Romans 11 and 1John 1:9 and ... -- does not cut it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

In heaven.

"I GO AWAY to prepare a place for you. And if I GO I will COME AGAIN to RECEIVE you to Myself in order that WHERE I am there YOU may be also" John 14:1-3

When He "comes again" at the "Coming of the Lord" we will be "caught up with the sleeping saints IN THE AIR to MEET the Lord" and thus shall we ever "Be WITH the Lord" 1Thess 4.

We are taken to heaven - and this is at "The Coming of the Lord and our gathering together to Him" - this is where we find "the FIRST resurrection".

Once the 1000 years are over (as we see them in Rev 20) then the saints and the New Jerusalem "Come down out of heaven" as we SEE in Rev 21.

THEN Christ is on earth with His saints!

OT prophets were prophesying prior to the return to Jerusalem (in Isaiah's case and Jeremiah's case and in Daniels case) and predicted that return.

OTher prophets predicted the future of Israel as an obedient people - while at other times describing their other path - if they should reject their Messiah.

In Christ,

Bob=

 

"FORGIVENESS" does not pay the "wages of sin", only "DEATH".

OT saints made "Sacrifices" and their sin were "FORGIVEN", but not "PAID", as in "TAKEN AWAY", Jesus had to "fulfil the requirements of the law", before they were "taken away",

Forgiveness. repentance, doesn't "Take away" sin, only "Death", without shed blood, no remission.

Is Jesus coming back to die for more sins???

Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Paul recognized his "sins in the flesh", then ask who will deliver "HIM" (soul) from that "body of death".

Our "WORKS", either "good/bad" has no bearing on "Salvation", that's God's judgment call according to his GRACE and our "Belief/unbelief".

Jesus made "ATONEMENT" for "believers", in "HIS FLESH", Israel will make "ATONEMENT", in "THEIR FLESH", (being killed) for rejecting him, this is why the church is rapture "BEFORE" the "Day of Atonement" (trib period) begins.

 

In heaven.

"I GO AWAY to prepare a place for you. And if I GO I will COME AGAIN to RECEIVE you to Myself in order that WHERE I am there YOU may be also" John 14:1-3

When He "comes again" at the "Coming of the Lord" we will be "caught up with the sleeping saints IN THE AIR to MEET the Lord" and thus shall we ever "Be WITH the Lord" 1Thess 4.

We are taken to heaven - and this is at "The Coming of the Lord and our gathering together to Him" - this is where we find "the FIRST resurrection".

Once the 1000 years are over (as we see them in Rev 20) then the saints and the New Jerusalem "Come down out of heaven" as we SEE in Rev 21.

THEN Christ is on earth with His saints!

OT prophets were prophesying prior to the return to Jerusalem (in Isaiah's case and Jeremiah's case and in Daniels case) and predicted that return.

OTher prophets predicted the future of Israel as an obedient people - while at other times describing their other path - if they should reject their Messiah.

In Christ,

Bob= </font>[/QUOTE]See the above chart, the "Feast of Tabernacles", (living (tabernacle) with God) is the "FIRST RESURRECTION".
(back on earth, alive).

And the NT teaches the same "sequence" of events as the OT.

 

Ray Berrian,

ABSENT FROM THE BODY
Upon what subject does Paul treat in 2Corinthians 5:1-8?

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." 2 Cor.5:1

NOTE: In this verse the present and future condition of the believer is spoken of.
While we are here "In our earthly house," in "this tabernacle," that is in this present mortal state, what is our condition?
"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" "For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life." 2 Cor5:2-4

Where else does the Apostle express this same fact?
"For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." Romans 8:22

How many conditions or states of being, does the aspotle bring to view?
Three: First, a positive state in this present life- clothed with "our earthly house" (2 Cor5:1), "this tabernacle" (2 Cor5:4); second, a negative state, called in verse 3 "unclothed" or "naked", that is, when in death, in the grave; third, another positve condition, when mortality is swallowed up of life, when we are clothed upon with our house from heaven (verses 2,4).

Which one of these conditions did the apostle wait for and desire?
" For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven."
2 Corinthians 5:2

What disclaimer does he utter concerning the second or middle state?
"Not for that we would be unclothed" 2 Cor 5:4.

How is it proved that Paul looked forward to the resurrection, when he expressed a desire to be clothed upon with the house from heaven?
By the parallel text in Romans 8:23: "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."

When is the body to be redeemed?
I Thess 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first" -See Phil. 3:20,21

When is mortality to be swallowed up of life?
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." -I Corinthians 15:51-53

NOTE- to be "naked" or "unclothed," must refer to one's condition in death. But how can it be said that one is unclothed, if he, as a conscious, disembodied spirit, instantly enters the heavenly abode at death? It can be plainly seen that if an immortal soul is the "house from heaven," when the "earthly house, the body, has been redeemed, an individual would have two houses, -one more than he would have occasion for. Then again, if the second house is the supposed immortal soul, and one had it now in possession in his body, it could not be true that it is, "eternal in the heavens." On the whole it is evident that the apostle is here treating the future redeemed body.

If the house from heaven is the future redeemed immortal body, how can it be said that, "we have" it?

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" -I John 5:11
HENCE, "he that hath the Son hath life." -I John 5:12

NOTE: This life we have in prospect, by faith. This life is equivalent to the redeemed state, which Paul calls "our house which is from heaven," and which we have, or possess in the same manner. It is eternal in the heavens, because it is the fixed and unalterable purpose of God to bestow it upon us.

When, only, is a person fitted to be present with the Lord?
Not till he is redeemed from all that is mortal and corruptible. I Cor, 15:50; I Thess 4:17.

To what condition then does he refer by the expression "To be present with the Lord?"

To the third condition. They are not necessarily immediately connected. Some time may elapse between them, as have been shown.

 

When it is God forgiving sin - there is no difference. He provides forgiveness in the fact of Christ paying for the wages of sin.

More specifically He claims to do it via the "Atonement model" for Gospel forgiveness.

He does not use the grocery store model.

In Christ,

Bob

 

You see then "that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" James 2.

"For it is not the hearers of the law that are just before God but the doerers of the Law WILL be JUSTIFIED" Rom 2:13.

God is not partial according to Romans 2:5-13. Some will go to heaven and some will not - to be sure. But in those verses He is very clear that you can not simply engage in rebellion and then expect heaven.

In MAtt 18 HE goes so far as to warn the saints about "Forgiveness revoked". The REAL debt of sin that is REALLY forgiven - is revoked in that case.

Your idea of "the unforgiven going to heaven anyway" is never taught in all of scripture.

The gospel message is about forgiveness.

There is NO access to heaven outside of the Gospel.

In Christ,

Bob

 

You see then "that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" James 2.

"For it is not the hearers of the law that are just before God but the doerers of the Law WILL be JUSTIFIED" Rom 2:13.

God is not partial according to Romans 2:5-13. Some will go to heaven and some will not - to be sure. But in those verses He is very clear that you can not simply engage in rebellion and then expect heaven.

In MAtt 18 HE goes so far as to warn the saints about "Forgiveness revoked". The REAL debt of sin that is REALLY forgiven - is revoked in that case.

Your idea of "the unforgiven going to heaven anyway" is never taught in all of scripture.

The gospel message is about forgiveness.

There is NO access to heaven outside of the Gospel.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]You can't associate "sins of the flesh" with "sins of the soul", if that were the case, NNE, could be saved.

Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me........ from the body of this death?

Two, totally separate entity.

God is an "ABSOLUTE GOD", you're "Absolutely saved", or "Absolutely lost", nothing in between.

If God revoked the salvation of one person for one sin, "JUSTICE" would require him to revoke salvation for all who commit any sin,

God's "LAW" is a "LEGAL SYSTEM", as such, all the "principles of Law/Justice" apply.

"BEARING WITNESS" means to "TESTIFY" in "COURT".

Jesus bears witness
Spirit bears witness
Works bear witness

And I haven't mention the "DISRESPECT" God would show for JESUS in dying for "EVERY SIN EVER COMMITTED" if he "revoked" Jesus's death as "PAYMENT" for any sin.

You are past the point of "revoking" once saved, but still under "Chastisement", which can/will result in "death of the flesh", by "Disobedience".


The "WORKS" described in James/Roman will not fulfil the requirements of the law, and the law doesn't require "death plus works" to pay the wages of sin.

Paul was warning us, and them, who claim to be saved, that where a man treasures is, is where he will "WORK".

Mt 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Mt 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

You see then "that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" James 2.

The only connection the "WORKS" has to salvation is the physical manifestation of that salvation, (WITNESS) and we do that several way, Baptism/Let light shine, none of which will satisfy the law.

[ December 29, 2005, 07:21 AM: Message edited by: Me4Him ]

 

The Bible never makes a distinction between them. There is no text in all of scripture saying "Sins of the flesh are one thing but that does not mean that the soul has sinned".

They are simply emphasizing different things ABOUT the same sin.

Sins of the flesh - refers to the influence of our sinful nature -- "why we sin".

The "Soul that sins it shall die" points to the fact that PERSONS sin - that all people are under the condemnation of the 2nd death due to sin. ALL sin.

Paul argues that his sinful nature causes him to do battle though he chooses obedience.

Then in chapter 8 he says "BUT IF by the Spirit of God you are puting to DEATH the deeds of the flesh THEN are you the children of God"

You are making up a story here. God never says that "IF a person CAN fail due to rebellion then ALL saints MUST fail"

RATHER - God shows "Forgiveness revoked" and declares that WHAT the SINNER OWED is now FULLY owed again!

And in Romans 6 He tells us that the "Wages of sin is death" the second death. The debt that Christ pays for us.

It is true that the law requires perfect obedience and only Christ has that.

But the "Justified by works" statement in James 2 and in Romans 2 (Doers of the Law JUSTIFIED) has to do with the fruits of Matt 7 shown IN the saints - "obedience".

So those that argue - "obedience does not matter after you are saved" have missed the point of the text.

In fact John says (1John 2) that if someone SAYS they know Christ but do not walk in obedience AS HE waked - they are a liar. (At present - it does not say that when they USED to walk as HE walked they were also a liar)

That is true. But God has made the point of obedience clear - if that fruit is not there (Matt 7) then the "tree is bad and the person goes to destruction" and as John says "The person is a liar".

Now there - see we agree on something.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The dead saints are said to return with Christ from heaven at the time of the resurrection and rapture of the saved. This shows that dead saints go to Heaven at death. "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him" (1Th4:14)

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight (2 Corinthians 5:6-7)

The basic meaning of death is separation. It has three different usages in the Bible in reference to man: 1. Spiritual death-separation from God because of sin (Eph 2:1; Joh 5:24; Col 2:13). 2. Physical death-separation of the spirit from the body (Mt 2:15; Ge 35:18; Jas 2:26). 3. Eternal death or Second death-the final, eternal separation of the unsaved from God and life (Re 20:14; 21:8; 2Th 1:9)
Way of Life Encyclopedia, Death: David Cloud

This is the best commentary I found that refutes the false teaching of "soul sleep"

 

The best rebuttal against soul sleep I can give is in the Old Testament.

1 Kings 17:21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
1 Kings 17:22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

If the child's soul was still in him, and asleep, would not Elijah's prayer have been 'O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul wake up'?

The soul does not sleep. The soul is fully aware of it's surroundings when the body is dead. The rich man died also and was buried. And in hell he lifted his eyes being in torments.

 

hello all
In regard to the talk of no saved believers going to the lake of fire, I have something to add,
saved believers could be hurt by the second death if they are not careful to maintain good works:

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

we are going to be tried and judged by God's fire
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Isa 30:33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

 

Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

1Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

These belivers did not get hurt by the flames of God.

Revelation 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

This can be us, Paise God