1 Cor.15 The rapture?

Tee Hee. Isn't this the very definition of 'gap'?

gap n. - 3. an interruption of continuity in space, or time; hiatus

A gap in a timeline would be "an event with no time given AT ALL".
So (this is the tee hee part) you have found the GAP between
Daniel's 69th week and Daniel's 70th week.

Daniel's first 69 weeks were each 7 years long (one year for
each one day) that is 69 times 7 years = 483 years.
The gap is the current age in which we reside variously
called:

The Time of the Gentiles
Gentile Age
Church Age (the time in which people can come into the
---- mostly Gentile church
The Age of Grace (in which grace will be shown on gentiles)


Daniel's 70th weeks will be 7 years long.
It is called variously:

The Tribulation Period
The Great Tribulation
Jacob's Trouble
DAY OF THE LORD (not every 'day of the Lord', just one them)

 

What an interesting way to admit to the point.

In any case - the 70 year timeline of Jeremiah referenced by Daniel at the start of Dan 9 is in fact a timeline given as an explicit chronological sequence. Slicing and dicing it up - would wreck it entirely.

Obviously.

At the end of Daniel 9 we have another timeline only this time a 490 year timline given as an explicit chronological sequence.

The attempt to try and equivocate between these explicit numbered timelines (70 years and 70 WEEKS) and the NON-Timeline NON-Chronological sequence of Romans 11 -- it futile.

Well at "least" there is a "future EVENT" predicted in Romans 11, with NO chronology NO timeline format NO units of time mentioned at all!!

Yeah now you are on to something. If we could "rewrite" Romans 11 so that it said "There was 2000 years from the time of Abraham to the Christ and that 2000 years we had 250 years until Benjamine and then 400 years before Elijah showed up..." Then in fact you WOULD have a timeline given as a Chronological Sequence -- you know -- like you find in Daniel 9.

And in that mythical case - I would then be arguing that when you "insert gaps of undefined lengths of time" between the events in the timeline - you wreck it!

This point is just not that complicated.

In Christ,

Bob

 

quote:
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But obviously even a cursory review of the text shows NO TIMELINE AT ALL in Romans 11!!

Rather it provides reference to "an event with no time given AT ALL!!"
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First you need a timeline composed of a chronological sequence of events as in the case of Jeremiah's 70 years or Daniel's 490 year timelines given as chronological sequences.

As has already been noted there is NO TIME AT ALL assigned in all of Romans 11. You claim to start with a gap but then have to admit that you have NO timeline!!

So now - back to the obvious.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Today My paster had a wonderful message on 1 John 3:1-3

1 John 3:1-3 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):

1 Look at how great a love the Father has given us,
that we should be called God's children.
And we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it didn't know Him.
2 Dear friends, we are God's children now,
and what we will be has not yet been revealed.
We know that when He appears, we will be like Him,
because we will see Him as He is.
3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself
just as He is pure.

So unless we have some scantification going on in our life, we
probably are not yet saved.

This passage cleary teaches the pretribulation rapture1
(a rapture2 presceded by a resurrection1)
and the Security of the Believer (OSAS = once saved, always saved).
For unless there is a pretrubulation rapture1 and OSAS is the
way God works, then this passage has no meaning.

BTW, i could use some prayer. I'm needing my glorified, Christ-like
body which will never get fat. The old body is too chubby. Thank you.

 

Rapture - the bodily resurrection of the saints by Jesus, all living and resurrected saints caught up in the air and taken to heaven with Christ.

This takes place in the future at the event that 1Thess 4 calls "The Coming of the Lord")

This is the point where Christ fulfills His John 14 promise "IF I go and prepare a place for you I will come AGAIN and recieve you to Myself"

Almost everyone here agrees with this much of the definition as far as I can tell. So we leave it there.

----------------------------------------


The FIRST resurrection (Rev 20:4-6)

This is the resurrection of the saints "the Holy and Blessed" according to Rev 20. This is in fact the general resurrection of the righteous that begins the 1000 years.

John is shown the future - and when he sees this resurrection event - he calls it " The first resurrection"

Almost everybody agrees with these obvious points so we will leave it at this.

In John 5 Christ calls this the "resurrection of Life".

--------------------------------------

The second resurrection --

This is not named as such but is implied in Rev 20 "The rest of the dead did not come to life UNTIL the 1000 years were completed".

John 5 calls this "The resurrection of judgment".

Almost all agree to this obvious point so we leave it here.

--------------------------------


Now for the part where people need to differ depending on their doctrinal traditions.

In Christ,

Bob

 

So unless we have some scantification going on in our life, we
probably are not yet saved.
</font>[/QUOTE]Now see there - we agree on something.

No mention of tribulation being post or pre-resurrection in the text above so your point ends before it even gets started. You are attempting to argue from what the text does not say - an argument "from the void".

I am sorry but that does not follow - at all.

OSAS is not required for people to be saved.

Pretribulation resurrection is not required for the saints raised in Rev 20 "The First Resurrection" to be "Like Christ" and to "See Him as He is".

You are really reaching here.

Ahh - here is the battle we all must fight. Fight the good fight brother!

In Christ,

Bob

 

BobRyan quoted me where I wrote?? :
"There may not be a "timeline" per se expressly stated in so many words as such in Romans"
Sorry for the confusion. I'm thinking of changing careers, and becoming a governmnent bureaucrat or a lawyer, and was just 'practicing.' Heh! Heh!
Ed

 

Sir EdEd, sir:
Just for fun, I decided to take this questionaire you posted and add my own answers to what I believe are yours: BTW, "Heh! Heh!" is the form I use as a chuckle. "Tee-hee" is a giggle. Heh! Heh! Anyway:

1) From Adam until the descending of New Jerusalem,
how many ages are there?

I don't know. The Bible doesn't say.
I agree. Scripture mentions at least two 'dispensations' by name, and implies at least two past ones. We won't fall out if you see 14 and I only see 12. Random numbers from me by the way.

2) Is the Holy Spirit required for salvation?

Yes.
I agree.

3) Does/Has God changed?

Nope.
Agreed.


4) Does/Has Jesus changed (besides the obvious)?

Nope.
Yup, agreed.

5) Is the Holy Spirit "raptured" at the same
time as the believers?

No. "Raptured" means to get a glorified body without
dying. The Holy Spirit doesn't need a body.

Bad wording here in the question. The Holy Spirit is 'taken out of the way', I believe, as an 'indwelling' person in the believer. In that sense, He is 'raptured'. He definitely does not need a body.

6) Who are the 144,000 sealed Jews?

A group of Messanic Jews from the church age
raptured at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
selected for special service on the earth
during the Tribulation period.

Nope! 'Messianic'? Yes; 'from the church age raptured...' No! Those 'raptured' are said 'to ever be with the Lord.' They (the 144K) are at least sealed, "After these things" (Rev.7:1) including opening of the first six seals. The phrase "who were redeemed from the earth" (Rev.14:3) refers to them. '...service on earth during...'? Agreed.

7) Are these 144K Jews evangelists?

The Bible does not say it.
Millionare novel writers say it [Smile]
Agreed. The 'novel writers' types do seem to put in a good portion of leaven in their works. Raises the dough!

8) Is there more than one way or method that one can be saved?

No. Salvation is through Jesus ONLY.
Yup!

9) Are there different classes of the saved?

No. But count me among the haired saved
(as opposed to the bald saved).


Too simplistic an answer, IMO. Semantics is involved, however. I would say there are several "different 'classes'" of the saved, in the kingdom of God, (KoG used here for a reason) and even "sub-classes" in the classes. So-called OT saints are not identical to those "in Christ" i.e., the church, the body. However, all were, are, and will be saved by faith in God/Jesus. The basis was and is the once for all time shedding of the blood at the cross. Nothing more is or was required to be added to this.

A) Can the Jews be saved outside of Jesus?

No.
Definitely not, agreed.

B) Is works necessary for salvation?

Yes, the works of Jesus are necessary.
No, the saved individual is saved by the works of Jesus,
not by their own works.
Agree with both.

C) Will there be a mass period of evangelism during
the tribulation?

No, for gentiles.
Yes, for Jewish Israeli.
I do not agree, here, but again this may be semantics. "Mass period of evangelism" is a somewhat nebulous phrase. The 144K may well be in volved in 'evangelism'; the two witnesses 'prophesy'; the 'everlasting gospel' is preached to all.

D) Is martyrdom a prerequisite for salvation
during the tribulation?

Yes, for gentiles.
No, for Jewish Israeli.
No, not a prerequisite, for any, but often, and may well be usually, a consequence. If one is referrring to 'salvation to eternal life', that is. There are no 'prerequisites' to this in any 'age'. Definitions here can be 'foggy' as well.

E) If the Holy Spirit is not here during the tribulation
then how can anyone be saved?

Unanswerable question based on a faulty premesis.
The Holy Spirit will be on earth during
the Tribulation period.
Agreed, fully. Scripture does not teach that He 'indwells' as He does in the 'dispensation of the grace of God', but He is there.

F) Can God protect His children on the earth from His wrath?

Yes.
Yup!

10) Are those mentioned throughout the NT as elect
the Jews or the Church?

Yes.

Bad question, faulty premise. The Jews and the church are both 'elect'. But there is more than one category/division of both 'elect' and 'Jews', although there is only one of 'the Church'. Abraham and Noah, as some others, are mentioned as believers, obviously 'elect; but neither were Jews, and certainly not of the church. I think you would find one or more in the gospels, as well.

11) What are the moral implications on pre-tribbers
if they are wrong and the Lord comes at the
end of the tribulation only once?

None. The whole idea of any eschatological teaching
should be to encourage holy living NOW.
Aside from having to listen to "I told you so!"? -*- ...

12) Does my belief in a post-trib return of our Lord affect
or negate my "rapture" at the beginning of the tribulation?

No. Only your personal relation to the Savior: Messiah Jesus.
Agreed.

13) Do you believe that only spiritual Christians
will be "raptured" out at the beginning of the
tribulation, leaving non-spiritual ones here?

Nope. I'm an ALL or NONE pretribulation rapturist.
I'm with you, here, both literally and figuratively.
14) Do you believe that since the word "church"
is not found between Revelation 4 and 21 the church
is not on the earth?

Yes, the gentile church-age church is not found.
The Jewish Israeli chruch is found after the
mid=trib crises
Semantics, perhaps, but it is never called 'church' per se. But there IS no such thing as a or the "gentile church-age church ", or "The Jewish Israeli chruch (sic)" in the sense we are speaking- only 'the church.'

15) Since the early church fathers (ECFs) did not
believe in a pre-trib "rapture" did that affect
their salvation?

If your premesis is true, it did not affect their
salvation.
Naah! Even if the "premesis" (you mean premise) is false, that has no bearing, here.

16) Which is superior, the English translations,
or the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek?

The translations written in the language
that i understand: 20th century English.
The nKJV is the best, but NIV, NASB, NLT
contain the written word of God: the Holy Bible.
As a matter of principle, the original language text(s), usually.
'Superior' for my (usual) use? one of the above or a close cousin. I usually use an NKJV, but i am extremely partial to the ESV- The EdSutton version. Incidentally, there is a message in my last crack. Personal biases affect even translators, if only subtly.

17) Do you believe the tribulation will be pre-mil,
post-mil, or a-mil?

pre-mil
Yup!

18) Are the church-age saints (those today)
considered the Bride of Christ?

Yes.
Yes, they are considered that, by most, but I prefer to say the Body of Christ. Exactly who and what is/are 'the bride' is 'derived', as opposed to 'stated', as far as I can tell.

19) Are the OT saints considered part of the Bride of Christ?

Yes.
By some, yes; by some, no. I tend to say no, but see the above answer.

1A) Are the trib-saints considered part of the Bride of Christ?

Yes.
Identical answer as the two previous.

1B) Are the Jews who are saved after the tribulation
saved outside of the blood of Christ?

No.
Nope. We already covered that in Q. 9.

1C) Why are people saying today "Where is the
promise of His return?" (Fulfilling
the scripture: 2 Peter 3:4 And saying,
Where is the promise of his coming?
for since the fathers fell asleep,
all things continue as they were from
the beginning of the creation.)

They don't see God's mercy toward them.

I cannot tell what is in anyone's mind. I'd say the above answer is part of it, though.

1D) Can you, as a pre-tribulationist, afford to be wrong?

Yes. Trusting Jesus is a higher calling than
one's x-trib position. The same actions i call for
to be Rapture Ready in the church age are the actions needed for
a postribulation rapture.

Good answer.

1E) What are the implications on you, your family,
your friends, your church, should pre-trib be proven wrong?
Aside from hearing those 'I told you sos', I spoke of ... Sorry, I jumped in ahead of myself, here.

They will probably be disapointed in me that i
didn't see that God had blessed them with the
gift of martyrdom.

1F) Can you quote a verse for us that says,
in the words of Christ, Peter, John, Paul,
whoever, "After that tribulation I will gather my church."?

No. But i have a concordance.
Want me to look it up?

I'm pretty sure that particular wording does not occur in Scripture.

20) You said you've been studying the Word for 50 years.
Did you arrive at pre-trib on your own,
or did you first discover it in the writings
of Lindsay/Pentecost/Kirban/Scofield/Ryrie/LaHaye/Walvoord/Larkin, et.al.?

None of the above.
The minister at the church where i was saved
taught a pretribulation rapture/resurrection.
I was 8-years-old. I believed what he said.
After that i read the Bible. Never did find
anthing in the Bible contradicting the Pretribulation
Rapture.
I do not claim to have studied the Word for 50 years, although I guess I have heard some of it preached for that long, as I am 58 and was taken to church from infancy. My dad thought it was something we should do. I reckon that had to something to do with the fact that he was a deacon, church treasurer at the time, and Sunday School Secretary then. And the fact that my mother was the daughter of the Pastor when they were married, as well, might have come into play', too. I cannot even tell you exactly how long I have been saved. I can tell you about when I really comprehended some of it, and a 'baptismal date' can be found within a few days, I'm sure. The baptism preceeded the 'assurance'. I said this last to say this. I think John 3:16; 6:47; Acts 16:31; and Eph.2:8-10 are fairly clear. Why try to help God out? I have believed in Him; I believe in Him. Ergo, I am saved, End of story! The Bible said that, I didn't. It did not ask me to describe "an experience." Enough on this sermonette, here. My first 'real' or at least extended exposure did not come for me until my college days At UK. The first of the individuals you named I ever heard of, then, would have been Hal Lindsey, but I was already 'moving' to that viewpoint before knowing who he was, either. Next, Scofield would be at least a year away, even at this time, the rest, one to two, at the earliest. I will agree with the following assessment; these are nice questions. I hope the answers are as elightening. Ed

Nice questions, Brother /1998 name suppressed/.
And your answers are?
Note that i will probably not respond to your answers
unless i feel i will have something of encouragement
to add an ongoing discussion.

 

Well, I admit that strictly speaking the two are different. The exact logic equivalent would be: "if anybody was hurt by the second death it means he did not overcome." If p-&gt;q then ~q-&gt;~p, everybody knows this. That is not the issue.

However, everyday language is not always that strict, yet everybody is able to get the right meaning. To stick with the Bible, I would like to give you another example after the same pattern:

"If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

We can safely infer from this that if you don't do those things (confess & believe) you will not be saved.

Or a more mundane example. Father tells son:

"If you do your homework I will take you to Disneyland tomorrow"

It is obvious that the negative is also true, that is, if the boy does not do his homework, the father will not take him to Disneyland.

Regarding your disagreement with my conditional security beliefs I respect your opinion, but I would suggest to leave that for other threads

In Christ

 

MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days ..

Very good.

 

Ok - so tribulation as Matt 24 says - THEN the "coming of the Lord" and the gathering together to Him of all the saints both the living and the dead "At the coming of the Lord" as 1Thess 4 points out and as 1Cor 15 states and as Rev 19-20 point out.

So in John 5 we see TWO resurrections (just as we see in Rev 20).

In Rev 20 we are told that they are 1000 years apart.

But at the first resurrection we see the fulfillment of the promise in John 14 "IF I go and prepare a place for you I will come again and RECEIVE you to Myself".

That is the promise being fulfilled in 1Thess 4 and in Rev 19 and in Matt 24 when we are gathered together to Him.

In Christ,

Bob

 

All true.

The "flying off" that you see in 1Thess 4 is associated with the resurrection of the saints and as we see in Rev 20 - that resurrection (the "first resurrection" the one of the blessed and holy) happens AFTER the tribulation and AT "the coming of the Lord" just as 1Thess 4 says. It is the exact same sequence as MAtt 24.

In Christ,

Bob

 

1 Cor 15 -- Yes

1 Thess 4 -- Yes, very clearly.

Matt 24 -- No, the tribulation period.

2 Thess 2 -- Yes, Paul told them not to think that the rap[ture had already occured, else we would see certain conditions - one being the antochrist having been revealed

Romans 8:18-23 - No, the earth will remain under futility until Christ comes in power.

2 Cor 5:1-8 -- No, just referring to our going to be with him when we physically die.

And let's add:

1 John 3:1-3 -- Yes, "we shall see Him as he is" refers to our having been changed in a moment when we see Him.

 

Peter tells the NT saints to fix their hope “completely” on the coming of the Son of Man”

So too Matthew speaking decades after the Cross shows us that Christ Himself “Does not miss” the all important focus of the saints in His review of events of the future leading to “the coming of the Lord”

So instead of having "a different" focus for the saints in MAtt 24 than you have in John 14:1-3 and in 1Thess 4 and in 2Thess 2, 1Cor 15 and in Rev 20 -- it is in fact the SAME focal point!

The Coming of the Lord!!

In Christ,

Bob