Sir EdEd, sir:
Just for fun, I decided to take this questionaire you posted and add my own answers to what I believe are yours: BTW, "Heh! Heh!" is the form I use as a chuckle. "Tee-hee" is a giggle. Heh! Heh! Anyway:
1) From Adam until the descending of New Jerusalem,
how many ages are there?
I don't know. The Bible doesn't say.
I agree. Scripture mentions at least two 'dispensations' by name, and implies at least two past ones. We won't fall out if you see 14 and I only see 12. Random numbers from me by the way.
2) Is the Holy Spirit required for salvation?
Yes.
I agree.
3) Does/Has God changed?
Nope.
Agreed.
4) Does/Has Jesus changed (besides the obvious)?
Nope.
Yup, agreed.
5) Is the Holy Spirit "raptured" at the same
time as the believers?
No. "Raptured" means to get a glorified body without
dying. The Holy Spirit doesn't need a body.
Bad wording here in the question. The Holy Spirit is 'taken out of the way', I believe, as an 'indwelling' person in the believer. In that sense, He is 'raptured'. He definitely does not need a body.
6) Who are the 144,000 sealed Jews?
A group of Messanic Jews from the church age
raptured at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
selected for special service on the earth
during the Tribulation period.
Nope! 'Messianic'? Yes; 'from the church age raptured...' No! Those 'raptured' are said 'to ever be with the Lord.' They (the 144K) are at least sealed, "After these things" (Rev.7:1) including opening of the first six seals. The phrase "who were redeemed from the earth" (Rev.14:3) refers to them. '...service on earth during...'? Agreed.
7) Are these 144K Jews evangelists?
The Bible does not say it.
Millionare novel writers say it [Smile]
Agreed. The 'novel writers' types do seem to put in a good portion of leaven in their works. Raises the dough!
8) Is there more than one way or method that one can be saved?
No. Salvation is through Jesus ONLY.
Yup!
9) Are there different classes of the saved?
No. But count me among the haired saved
(as opposed to the bald saved).
Too simplistic an answer, IMO. Semantics is involved, however. I would say there are several "different 'classes'" of the saved, in the kingdom of God, (KoG used here for a reason) and even "sub-classes" in the classes. So-called OT saints are not identical to those "in Christ" i.e., the church, the body. However, all were, are, and will be saved by faith in God/Jesus. The basis was and is the once for all time shedding of the blood at the cross. Nothing more is or was required to be added to this.
A) Can the Jews be saved outside of Jesus?
No.
Definitely not, agreed.
B) Is works necessary for salvation?
Yes, the works of Jesus are necessary.
No, the saved individual is saved by the works of Jesus,
not by their own works.
Agree with both.
C) Will there be a mass period of evangelism during
the tribulation?
No, for gentiles.
Yes, for Jewish Israeli.
I do not agree, here, but again this may be semantics. "Mass period of evangelism" is a somewhat nebulous phrase. The 144K may well be in volved in 'evangelism'; the two witnesses 'prophesy'; the 'everlasting gospel' is preached to all.
D) Is martyrdom a prerequisite for salvation
during the tribulation?
Yes, for gentiles.
No, for Jewish Israeli.
No, not a prerequisite, for any, but often, and may well be usually, a consequence. If one is referrring to 'salvation to eternal life', that is. There are no 'prerequisites' to this in any 'age'. Definitions here can be 'foggy' as well.
E) If the Holy Spirit is not here during the tribulation
then how can anyone be saved?
Unanswerable question based on a faulty premesis.
The Holy Spirit will be on earth during
the Tribulation period.
Agreed, fully. Scripture does not teach that He 'indwells' as He does in the 'dispensation of the grace of God', but He is there.
F) Can God protect His children on the earth from His wrath?
Yes.
Yup!
10) Are those mentioned throughout the NT as elect
the Jews or the Church?
Yes.
Bad question, faulty premise. The Jews and the church are both 'elect'. But there is more than one category/division of both 'elect' and 'Jews', although there is only one of 'the Church'. Abraham and Noah, as some others, are mentioned as believers, obviously 'elect; but neither were Jews, and certainly not of the church. I think you would find one or more in the gospels, as well.
11) What are the moral implications on pre-tribbers
if they are wrong and the Lord comes at the
end of the tribulation only once?
None. The whole idea of any eschatological teaching
should be to encourage holy living NOW.
Aside from having to listen to "I told you so!"?
-*-
...
12) Does my belief in a post-trib return of our Lord affect
or negate my "rapture" at the beginning of the tribulation?
No. Only your personal relation to the Savior: Messiah Jesus.
Agreed.
13) Do you believe that only spiritual Christians
will be "raptured" out at the beginning of the
tribulation, leaving non-spiritual ones here?
Nope. I'm an ALL or NONE pretribulation rapturist.
I'm with you, here, both literally and figuratively.
14) Do you believe that since the word "church"
is not found between Revelation 4 and 21 the church
is not on the earth?
Yes, the gentile church-age church is not found.
The Jewish Israeli chruch is found after the
mid=trib crises
Semantics, perhaps, but it is never called 'church' per se. But there IS no such thing as a or the "gentile church-age church ", or "The Jewish Israeli chruch (sic)" in the sense we are speaking- only 'the church.'
15) Since the early church fathers (ECFs) did not
believe in a pre-trib "rapture" did that affect
their salvation?
If your premesis is true, it did not affect their
salvation.
Naah! Even if the "premesis" (you mean premise) is false, that has no bearing, here.
16) Which is superior, the English translations,
or the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek?
The translations written in the language
that i understand: 20th century English.
The nKJV is the best, but NIV, NASB, NLT
contain the written word of God: the Holy Bible.
As a matter of principle, the original language text(s), usually.
'Superior' for my (usual) use? one of the above or a close cousin. I usually use an NKJV, but i am extremely partial to the ESV- The EdSutton version.
Incidentally, there is a message in my last crack. Personal biases affect even translators, if only subtly.
17) Do you believe the tribulation will be pre-mil,
post-mil, or a-mil?
pre-mil
Yup!
18) Are the church-age saints (those today)
considered the Bride of Christ?
Yes.
Yes, they are considered that, by most, but I prefer to say the Body of Christ. Exactly who and what is/are 'the bride' is 'derived', as opposed to 'stated', as far as I can tell.
19) Are the OT saints considered part of the Bride of Christ?
Yes.
By some, yes; by some, no. I tend to say no, but see the above answer.
1A) Are the trib-saints considered part of the Bride of Christ?
Yes.
Identical answer as the two previous.
1B) Are the Jews who are saved after the tribulation
saved outside of the blood of Christ?
No.
Nope. We already covered that in Q. 9.
1C) Why are people saying today "Where is the
promise of His return?" (Fulfilling
the scripture: 2 Peter 3:4 And saying,
Where is the promise of his coming?
for since the fathers fell asleep,
all things continue as they were from
the beginning of the creation.)
They don't see God's mercy toward them.
I cannot tell what is in anyone's mind. I'd say the above answer is part of it, though.
1D) Can you, as a pre-tribulationist, afford to be wrong?
Yes. Trusting Jesus is a higher calling than
one's x-trib position. The same actions i call for
to be Rapture Ready in the church age are the actions needed for
a postribulation rapture.
Good answer.
1E) What are the implications on you, your family,
your friends, your church, should pre-trib be proven wrong?
Aside from hearing those 'I told you sos', I spoke of ... Sorry, I jumped in ahead of myself, here.
They will probably be disapointed in me that i
didn't see that God had blessed them with the
gift of martyrdom.
1F) Can you quote a verse for us that says,
in the words of Christ, Peter, John, Paul,
whoever, "After that tribulation I will gather my church."?
No. But i have a concordance.
Want me to look it up?
I'm pretty sure that particular wording does not occur in Scripture.
20) You said you've been studying the Word for 50 years.
Did you arrive at pre-trib on your own,
or did you first discover it in the writings
of Lindsay/Pentecost/Kirban/Scofield/Ryrie/LaHaye/Walvoord/Larkin, et.al.?
None of the above.
The minister at the church where i was saved
taught a pretribulation rapture/resurrection.
I was 8-years-old. I believed what he said.
After that i read the Bible. Never did find
anthing in the Bible contradicting the Pretribulation
Rapture.
I do not claim to have studied the Word for 50 years, although I guess I have heard some of it preached for that long, as I am 58 and was taken to church from infancy. My dad thought it was something we should do. I reckon that had to something to do with the fact that he was a deacon, church treasurer at the time, and Sunday School Secretary then. And the fact that my mother was the daughter of the Pastor when they were married, as well, might have come into play', too. I cannot even tell you exactly how long I have been saved. I can tell you about when I really comprehended some of it, and a 'baptismal date' can be found within a few days, I'm sure. The baptism preceeded the 'assurance'. I said this last to say this. I think John 3:16; 6:47; Acts 16:31; and Eph.2:8-10 are fairly clear. Why try to help God out? I have believed in Him; I believe in Him. Ergo, I am saved, End of story! The Bible said that, I didn't. It did not ask me to describe "an experience." Enough on this sermonette, here. My first 'real' or at least extended exposure did not come for me until my college days At UK. The first of the individuals you named I ever heard of, then, would have been Hal Lindsey, but I was already 'moving' to that viewpoint before knowing who he was, either. Next, Scofield would be at least a year away, even at this time, the rest, one to two, at the earliest. I will agree with the following assessment; these are nice questions. I hope the answers are as elightening. Ed
Nice questions, Brother /1998 name suppressed/.
And your answers are?
Note that i will probably not respond to your answers
unless i feel i will have something of encouragement
to add an ongoing discussion.
