1 Cor.15 The rapture?

[BobRyan]

quote]
The time line according to Matthew 24

1. church age continues <== you are here! Matthew 24:4-15

2. Tribulation time Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event Matthew 24:29-30)

4. rapture/resurrection event Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5

5. Millennium - Rev 20:5-end

[/quote]

Matt 24
14 ""This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Not until the Gospel has gone into the entire world - will Christ come - and this was spoken by Christ pre-cross and then published by Matt post-cross - as a "future event". The Gospel going into all the world - an event we "Still" wait for.. This scope applies to “all mankind” not just Jews.

15 ""Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains;
17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 ""But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 ""But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

Where was “the holy place” in the days of Christ – was it outside of the city in the burial grounds?

Jer 31
38 ""Behold, days are coming,'' declares the LORD, ""when the city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate.
39 ""The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah.
40 ""And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever.''

Matt 24
21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 ""Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

The persecution of Christians by the Pagan Roman empire - and then persecution of Christians by the Holy Roman Empire - "The Dark Ages" - represents centuries of killing Christians - unprecidented in extent and length of time - in all of history.

This non-SDA link shows a chronology of the Matt 24 events that DOES have the 1260 years of the dark ages matched with the expected tribulation mentioned in Matt 24.
http://www.bibleexplained.com/Gospels/Matt/mt21-25/Mt24.htm

Matt 24:
23 "" Then if anyone says to you, "Behold, here is the Christ,' or " There He is,' do not believe him.
24 ""For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
25 ""Behold, I have told you in advance.
26 ""So if they say to you, "Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, "Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
27 "" For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

The visibility of cloud-to-could lightning - from one end of heaven to the other - is the "comparison" made with the 2nd coming.

The coming is in the clouds - just as the lightning and just as the "signs".

Matt 24:
29 ""But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

These Matt 24 events are recorded in the encyclopedia. First we note that the 1260 years of the dark ages ends in the 1700's. Then we notice the Lisbon earthquake, 1755, the dark day in the Northwestern US, 1780, and the "falling" of the stars, 1833 – all follow the end of that tribulation period.

- Stars of heaven shall fall No shower from the meteor belt activated in 1833 has been as great as as that one. This observation was noted in the magazine, Sky and Telescope around 1997. (still true as of 2003).

For a summary of signs of the end -- see
http://www.present-truth.org/signs-heavens.htm

For a list of historic quotes about the Dark Day and falling stars –
http://www.temcat.com/Temcats-studies/exceptwe.htm

Although Matt 24 and these notes above point out that the major centuries long tribulation ended with the events described above in history – still there is another tribulation period beyond this 1260 year great historic time of persecution. This shorter tribulation is also included in the Matt 24 concept of “tribulation preceding the 2nd coming”. It is seen in Rev 16 as the time of the 7 last plagues and in Rev 12-14 as the time of the Mark of the Beast.

Matt 24
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

Christ comes "IN the clouds of the Sky" with "GREAT power and Great Glory". And is seen vividly just as lightning is seen vividly.

Matt 24
37 ""For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
38 ""For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

World wide destruction of the flood is as the world wide event of the Son of Man -

2Peter 3 makes the same point - that just as the earth was destroyed by water - so it is to be destroyed by Fire at "the coming" of Christ - "His return" as Peter calls it.

The time line according to Matthew 24

1. church age continues <== you are here! Matthew 24:4-15

2. Tribulation time Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event Matthew 24:29-30)

4. rapture/resurrection event Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5

5. Millennium - Rev 20:5-end

Postrib pre-mill outline:

0. church age continues -- you are here
1. Tribulation time Matthew 24:21-28
2. Second Advent of Jesus event (1Thess 4, Rev 19, Matthew 24:29-30)
2.A The FIRST resurrection (Rev 20) event Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5
of the blessed and holy at Christ's appearing in Rev 19 –
Is the same as the resurrection at Christ's return in 1Thess 4.
2.B. Saints taken to heaven as promised in John 14 (1 Thess 4)
3. literal millennium spent in heaven with Christ (Rev 20)
4. Second Resurrection (Rev 20)
5. Lake of Fire destruction of the wicked (Rev 20)
6. new heaven & new earth (Rev 21)

In this view the First Resurrection John sees (Rev 20) which is at Christ's Rev 19 appearing is the SAME resurrection that Paul describes at Christ's appearing in 1Thess 4. The resurrection of the righteous.

In this view the sequence of Rev 19, 20 and 21 is literal and plain. No gimmicks!

=================================================================

The question is asked as to how this fits with the future predicted in 2Thess 2:1-7 where the "man of sin" causes all to fall that do not "have a love of the truth".

The answer is -- "perfectly".

In Both Matt 24 and 2Thess 2 we see the same thing presented PRIOR to the return of Christ in the air to "receive us to Himself" and take us to that "place He has prepared for us" in His Father's house.

In Matt 24 we read this

23 "" Then if anyone says to you, "[/b]Behold, here is the Christ[/b],' or " There He is,' do not believe him.
24 ""For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
25 ""Behold, I have told you in advance.

And THEN we see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven - (as described in Matt 24 FUTURE to th writing of that Gospel).

In the same way - before the return of Christ we ALSO see the deception that is predicted (future to Paul's day)

2Thess 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

The falling away of vs 1-4 came with the fall of the Christian church into the form of the RCC, and persecution of the saints by the church during the dark ages.

But the "Great deception" described in both 2Thess 2 and in Matt 24 that comes at the end and BEFORE the return of Christ - has yet to take place.

So to add to the sequence above ...

0. The Christian church continues -- You are here

1. The great apostacy of the dark ages (2Thess 2:2-4)
2. The Seven last Plagues (Rev 16)
3. The GREAT deception - (Matt 24, 2Thess 2)
4. The 2nd Coming (the return of Christ APPEARING in the air) (Rev 19, 1Thess 4)
5. The resurrection of the Righteous (John 5, Rev 20, 1Thess 4) "which is the FIRST resurrection".
6. Saints raptured up in the air to be with Christ (1Thess 4)

7. The literal millennium - (Rev 20)
8. The 2nd resurrection (John 5, Rev 20) of "wicked only" over whom the 2nd death DOES have power.
9. The Lake of Fire event (Rev 20)
10. The New heavens and New Earth (Rev 21)

Exactly as the Bible described it - in the same order -- all literally true.

 

[Linda64]

1 Thessalonians and all the other epistles of Paul were written "to the churches" in those particular areas--not to Israel. Matthew 24 is the Olivet Discourse and was spoken by Jesus to His disciples about Israel. Lengthy explanations won't change that fact.

The Rapture is found in 1 Thess. 4 and 1 Cor. 15--those epistles were written to the church in Corinth and to the church in Thessalonica.

The Rapture is for the Church; the Tribulation (also known as the Time of Jacob's Trouble Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. [Jeremiah 30:7]) Jacob is also referred as "Israel", is for Israel, NOT the Church.

 

[hillclimber]

You have it right Linda. I hope you have thick skin.

Bob Ryan, you are mixed up again as to the differences in gospels. Nothing of the rapture can be found in the 4 gospels. And we are not in the millinial kingdom, as it was postponed, replaced by a new plan where all are one in Christ, Jew and Gentile. We no longer practise any of the rituals and sacrifices of ancient Israel, and Paul is our messenger/apostle for today, just as Moses was to Israel.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Nothing in the 4 gospels about the rapture? John 14:1 - 3 is almost identical with 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 17.

 

[hillclimber]

They are similar but in John the Lord is clearly talking Messianic Kingdom talk, requiring works, ask anything in My Name, keep My commandments, and 14:12 is fantistic, and vs 13 is the hope of all who WANT. This M. kingdom is earthly, and promised to Israel.

The I Thess 4 verses is all rapture, where we meet Him in the air. I can hardly wait.

 

[Avshalom]

Methinks Rev. 20:4-5 should be the final nail in the coffin of the pre-trib rapture theory. I still have to hear a pre-tribber commenting on that.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

The first resurection includes tribulation saints and thus must occur after the tribulation. On the other hand, Paul teaches that the dead in Christ will be resurected at the rapture, supposedly seven year before this "first resurection". Can there be another resurection before the first one?

Is this not a flat contradiction?

 

[Ed Edwards]

The first resurection includes tribulation saints
and thus must occur after the tribulation. On the other hand,
Paul teaches that the dead in Christ will be resurected
at the rapture, supposedly seven year before this "first resurection".
Can there be another resurection before the first one?

Is this not a flat contradiction?

No contradiction.
Well, unless one reads what says
"first resurrection" by adding to it: "first and only resurrection.

Actually i just posted a full explanation of Revelation 20:4-5.
It is a proof text for the pretribulation Rapture

I graduated from College, but first I graduated from grade school.
Was grade school ONE AND ONLY ONE GRADE? No, where i went
to grade school there were 12 grades.

The pretribulation rapture is 7 years before
the post-tribulation resurrection - both are part of the
FIRST RESURRECTION.

BTW, in the First ADVENT Jesus came to earth TWICE:
1. as a babe in the manger
2. as victor over hell and the grave

Likewise in the Second Advent, Jesus will come to earth TWICE:
1. to get the saints at the pretribulation rapture
2. to get the tribulation saints at the post-tribulation resurrection

 

[Avshalom]

Hello Ed,

Your interpretation is a little too far fetched and does not make much sense to me. Why not stick with the obvious meaning of the word "first"?

>Well, unless one reads what says "first resurrection" by adding to it: "first and only resurrection.

In my understanding, "first" implies that there is at least another one after it and no other before. "first and only" is just an absurd formulation. Of course, this is not the only resurrection but it is nevertheless the first.

The Bible shows there are at least two resurrections. The first, after the Tribulation, and the general resurrection after the Millenium.

> Actually i just posted a full explanation of Revelation 20:4-5. It is a proof text for the pretribulation Rapture.

A proof for a pre-trib rapture??? You gotta be kidding!!! This is the most clear verse against it.

It is not my intention and I don't feel the need to debate pre-tribulationism. I know from my own experience that most people just believe what they want to believe no matter how much evidence you give them.

I must add that I also started as a pre-tribber shortly after I became a Christian, because this was what almost all my Christian friends believed. After reading the Bible for myself, I started to doubt it and began to do some research on the internet to examine both pre and post-trib.

In less than a month, I came to the conclusion that the pre-trib rapture is a deceptive belief and I could't hold to it any longer. For me at least, the matter is settled now.

[ January 12, 2006, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: Avshalom ]

 

[Ed Edwards]

In less than a month, I came to the conclusion that
the pre-trib rapture is a deceptive belief and I could't
hold to it any longer. For me at least, the matter is settled now.

Tee Hee. I've gone months of Bible study to find one more
pretribulation truth. For the past 3½-years I've been posting here
at BB (Baptist Board) teaching the pretribulation rapture with the
firm hope that Jesus is going to come get me, perhaps in the
pretribulation rapture but if not, then Jesus is going to come get
me when I die.

For the past 21½-years I've been posting on bbs (bulletin boards)
frequently about the pretribulation rapture - the Blessed Hope that all
Christians should have.

BTW, I'm busy in January, so won't be talking to you much, what i say
is everywhere around, if somebody else wants to see what i've said.
It is really easy to use GOOGLE, just put Ed's member number #4203
and for the place you want to search "baptistboard". Throw in
"Rapture" with the member number and you will just get the pretribulation
posts (and skip out on the all-Bibles advocacy posts).
(You may need to get your data from the Googe 'Archives' if it is
gone from BB.)

In April 1952 (for you quick subtracters, that is nigh unto 54 years
ago) I went (my mother dragged me) to a pretribulation rapture series
of meetings. I knew I'd sinned (and had some 8-year-old's pet sins)
so held off awile, but I wanted to NOT BE LEFT BEHIND when Jesus came
to get everybody. So I was saved this way:

Romans 10:9 (the version in Ed's head):
[/b]If you will confess Jesus as Lord and beleive in your heart that
God raised Himn from the dead; then you will be saved.[/b]

Well, salvation is forever, Jesus saved me and Jesus ain't gonna
drop me. I was just as saved that day in April 1952 as I am now,
as I will be if I die, as I will be when Jesus comes to get the saints
before the tribulation period, as I will be 20 Billion times 20 Billion
years down-time.

Oh, BTW, for those of you into set theory (mathematics) here is
a set theorum:

An infinite set can be divided into any finite number of
infinite subsets.

Eternity is an infinite set of times. So if there are a finite number
of Christian saved elect saints in eternal heaven, then by that theorum,
each of them can spend an eternity alone with Jesus.
Also, I could spend an eternity alone with Brother or Sister Avshalom,
if we could get along. Yep, I might only get to spend one minute
alone with Jesus every 400 Trillion years (20 Billion times 20 Billion,
us Billions) - there would be infinately many such minutes. So
I get to spend an eternity alone with Jesus -because of what Jesus
did for me in HIS RESURRECTION.

Your interpretation is a little too far fetched
and does not make much sense to me
Why not stick with the obvious meaning of the word "first"?

I did stick; you did not stick. You got the cardinality
and ordinality of '1' confused.
So it is obvious you don't know the first thing about 'first'.
Oh, I have a degree in mathematics, i shouldn't show off

A proof for a pre-trib rapture??? You gotta be kidding!!!
This is the most clear verse against it.

Actually I said: //Actually i just posted a full explanation of Revelation 20:4-5.
It is a proof text for the pretribulation Rapture//

There is a lot of difference between a 'proof text' and a 'proof'.
I know my mathematics and say as an expert: you cannot
'prove' the pretribulation rapture. Don't for a minute think you
are winning this debate, you are down flat on your back and the count
is 9 of 10. You also cannot prove any other tribulation/rapture theory.
Something that hasn't happened cannot be examined or proved.

By contrast 'proof text' is a scripture passage which is used
by itself to show some truth of God. Well, at least people use it
like it is.

After reading the Bible for myself
I started to doubt it and began to do some research on the internet
to examine both pre and post-trib.

I see your mistake. NEVER quit studying the Bible for yourself.
YOu can find ever error ever made by any human anywhere/anywhen on
the internet. Yep, you turned your eyes off Jesus and now the
water is over your head.

 

[UUall]

Hello Avshalom
I thought i had looked into every aspect of 1 Cor.15. I guess the simple sometimes pass over the simple. Thanks for the insight. Undeniable scriptural truth that there is no pre-mid rapture. Right there in the new testament. Again Avshalom, thanks, and i hope you dont mind me passing on what youve found.

 

[UUall]

Originally posted by Avshalom:
Hello Ed,

Your interpretation is a little too far fetched and does not make much sense to me. Why not stick with the obvious meaning of the word "first"?

1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Well, it seems that they (the rapturist) not only have trouble with what the FIRST means but they have trouble with what the LAST means.

MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

A trumpet blowing. Now if the LAST TRUMPET was blown in 1Cor. (at the rapture before the tribulation, as the rapturist would have us to believe) Why is a trumpet being blown in Matthew after the tribulation. Is not the last the last?

 

[UUall]

Once you accept there is no rapture, all the scripture fits perfectly in line. No more mystery.

1COR.15[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] BEHOLD, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

REV.10 [5] And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,[6] And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:[7] But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, THE MYSTERY OF GOD SHOULD BE FINISHED, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

If you want to know if the people of GOD will go through the so called tribulation just read about the six angels that come before the 7th. The voice of the 7th angel in which the mystery of GOD will be finished. The same mystery spoken of in 1COR.15 verse 51.

 

[UUall]

The rapturist have us fliting off to heaven to avoid the tribulation and the wrath to come. BUT what does the WORD of God say?

JOHN 17 [14] I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. [15] I PRAY NOT THAT THOU SHOULDEST TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, BUT THAT THOU SHOULDEST KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL. [16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

ISAIAH 26 [19] THY DEAD MEN SHALL LIVE, TOGETHER WITH MY DEAD BODY SHALL THEY ARISE. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. [20] COME, MY PEOPLE, ENTER THOU INTO THY CHAMBERS, AND SHUT THY DOORS ABOUT THEE: HIDE THYSELF AS IT WERE FOR A LITTLE MOMENT, UNTIL THE INDIGNATION BE OVERPAST. [21] For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

No need for a rapture. Nothing to worry about. Just gotta play a little hide and seek till Gods wrath (His indignation) has passed. You might also notice the dead in Christ rising first (as mentioned in 1 Cor.15).

ZEPH. 2 [1] Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; [2] Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, before the day of the Lord's anger come upon you. [3] SEEK YE THE LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: IT MAY BE YE SHALL BE HID IN THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER.

See? We will be here on earth during the Day of the Lord. But were gonna have a good hiding place.

PROVERBS 3 [22] So shall they be life unto thy soul, and grace to thy neck. [23] Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble. [24] When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet. [25] BE NOT AFRAID of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh. [26] For THE LORD SHALL BE THY CONFIDENCE, AND SHALL KEEP THY FOOT FROM BEING TAKEN.

Show no fear when Jesus returns to get rid of the bad guys.

PSALM 9 [5] Thou hast rebuked the heathen, THOU HAST DESTROYED THE WICKED, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever. [6] O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end: and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them. [7] But the Lord shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for judgment. [8] And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness. [9] THE LORD ALSO WILL BE A REFUGE FOR THE OPPRESSED, A REFUGE IN TIMES OF TROUBLE. [10] And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, Lord, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.

AMEN!

PSALM 12 [3] The Lord shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things: [4] Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us? [5] For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, NOW WILL I ARISE, saith the Lord; I WILL SET HIM IN SAFETY from him that puffeth at him.

I kinda knew all along that Jesus could protect His people in times of trouble even before I found these scriptures. We are not apointed to wrath and now we know why. A little game of hide and seek the Lord.

PROVERBS 1 [26] I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; [27] When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. [28] THEN SHALL THEY CALL UPON ME, BUT I WILL NOT ANSWER; THEY SHALL SEEK ME EARLY, BUT THEY SHALL NOT FIND ME: [29] For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord: [30] They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. [31] Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices. [32] For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them. [33] BUT WHOSO HEARKENETH UNTO ME SHALL DWELL SAFELY, AND SHALL BE QUIET FROM FEAR OF EVIL.

They did not choose the “fear of the Lord”. Hmm…..Anyone know what that means? THE FEAR OF THE LORD? It has to do with Gods 10 commandments.

PSALM 37 [7] Rest in the Lord, and WAIT PATIENTLY FOR HIM: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass. [8] Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil. [9] FOR EVILDOERS SHALL BE CUT OFF: BUT THOSE THAT WAIT UPON THE LORD, THEY SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH. [10] For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. [11] But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Yup. Be patient. The bad guys shall be cut off. Wait upon the Lord, and we shall inherit the earth.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Well, it seems that they (the rapturist) not only have
trouble with what the FIRST means but they have trouble
with what the LAST means.

Interesting arrogance???
1. the non-rapturist assumes that AT THE LAST TRUMP
in 1 Corinthians 15:51 is the same as the 7th Trumpet
of Revelation. This is an uncorrect and unfounded
assumption. If you have a scripture supporting that
assumption, now would be a good time to present it.
But the arrogance comes in when the one who makes such
an assumption CALLS IT HOLY WRIT

Since the Babylonian Captivity the Jewish SYnagogues,
when they were allowed by the country they lived in,
would have a Feast of Trumpets. Tradition had the
blowing of three trumpets: The First Trumpet, the
Last Trumpet, and the Great Trumpet.
It is simple, and creates hope: The Last Trumpet
of 1 Corinthians 15:51 is the last trumpet of the
Gentile Age (AKA: Church Age, Age of Grace, Time of the
Gentiles) and is sounded at the pretribulation rapture.
The 7th Trumpet of Revelation is the last trumpet of
the Tribulation Period between the Church Age and the
Millinnial Messanic Age.

2. The non-rapturist assumes that Matthew 24:31
comes IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION (Matthew 24:29).
In fact, if you read scripture with scripture, you
find that Matthew 24:29-30 speak of a different event
than Matthew 24:31. Here we go.
Of course, nobody seems to know anything about
the polysyndeton literary devise anymore, not even
language majors. Strange, using a literary technine in
prophetic literature???
-----------------------------------
In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
(in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
instead of an outline. This is most noticable
in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
I believe the major outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.
-------------------------------------

 

[Ed Edwards]

Once you accept there is no rapture, all the scripture
fits perfectly in line. No more mystery.

More anti-rapturist arragonce. You assume two mysteries are
the same then arragontly expound that gives you the right
to lord it over your inferior brothers. Sorry, wrong
assumption, bad assumption, non-scriptural assumption.
And for bad play, 15-yard penalty for not knowing what
'mystery' means though it is cleary shown what 'mystery'
means in the passages noted below.
In the HOly Scripture, 'mystery' refers to that which
wasn't known in the Old Testament but is reavealed in
the New Testament. The weak anti-rapturist statement above
makes it sound like the 'mystery' is not known until
the time spoken of in Revelation (see mystery #13 below).
This is a bait and switch technique, bad form in a debate.
The above quoted statement suckers folks in with a non-scriptural
meaning of 'mystery', then gives additional misinformation.

BTW, those who assume that the Mystem of God (#13 below)
and the mystery in 1 Cor 15:51 (#3 below) are the same, which of the
others below do you bunch together inspite of the Biblical
variation?


-------------------------------
The New Testament Mysteries point to
the veracity of the pretrib rapture position.

1. Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven

Matthew 12:10-11 (nKJV):
10. And the disciples came and said to Him,
"Why do you speak to them in parables?"
11. He answered and said to them, "Because it
has been given to you to know THE MYSTERIES
OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, but to them it has
not been given.

The parables of the Kingdom of Heaven are
given in Matthew 13:3-50 and in Mark 4:26-29

I believe the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven
describe the Church Age. The Church Age
goes from Pentacost to Rapture/resurrection/transformation.
During that age the Holy Spirit moves among
humans convicting of sin, and calling humans
to salvation through Jesus, the Christ.
This period in HIS-story can also be called
"the age of the gentiles".

2. Mystery of Israel's blindness in the Church Age

Romans 11:25-26a (nKJV):
For I do not desire, brethren, that you
should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you
should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness
in part has happened to Israel until the
fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26. And so all Israel will be saved,

I've had several interesting discussions
with Messianic Jews. They are thrilled at the
prospects that when the last possible gentile
(Hebrew: "goy") comes to accept Jesus, the Messiah,
as their personal savior -- then will Jesus
resurrect/rapture/transform the saved to that time.
Then will come the Tribulation, with the purpose
of Jesus finally winning the Jews unto Himself.


3. Mystery of the Rapture

1 Chrinthians 15:51a (NIV):
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,
but we will all be changed -- ...

1 Thessalonians 4:14,16

Titus 2:13 (nKJV):
looking for the blessed hope and
glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jeus
Christ

Of course, such a rapture must be pretrib
when 100s of millions of saints are still alive,
for after the tribulation there will only be a few
handfuls of living saints.


4. Mystery of His Will

Ephesians 1:9-12 (NIV)
And he made known to us the mystery of his will according
to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,
10 to be put into effect when the times will have
reached their fulfillment -- to bring all things
in heaven and on earth together under one head,
even Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen, having
been predestined according to the plan of him who
works out everything in conformity with
the purpose of his will,
12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in
Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

May God's will be done!

From Eternity past God has intended
to bring all things together in Christ.

This joining inclues the gentile church and
the race of Yisrael. At the pretribulation
rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
of the world, and then uses the Tribulation
to bring Yisrael back to Him.


5. Mystery of Christ:
the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel

Ephesians 3:2-12 (NIV):

2 Surely you have heard about the administration
of God's grace that was given to me for you,
3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation,
as I have already written briefly.
4 In reading this, then, you will be able
to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which was not made known to men in other generations
as it has now been revealed by the Spirit
to God's holy apostles and prophets.
6 This mystery is that through the gospel
the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel,
members together of one body, and sharers
together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
7 I became a servant of this gospel by the
gift of God's grace given me through the working
of his power.
8 Although I am less than the least of all God's
people, this grace was given me: to preach to
the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration
of this mystery, which for ages past was
kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church,
the manifold wisdom of God should be made
known to the rulers and authorities in
the heavenly realms,
11 according to his eternal purpose
which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 In him and through faith in him
we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

This is interesting because both verse 5 and 9
define "mystery".

The gentile church and the race of Yisrael
are joint heirs of God's promise to Abraham.
At the pretribulation rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
of the world, and then He uses the Tribulation
to bring Yisrael back to Him.

BTW, Ephesians 3:2 the word "administration"
in the NIV is rendered "dispensation"
in the KJV1769.


6. Mystery of Church the Bride of Christ

Ephesians 4:30b-33 (NIV):

for we are members of his body.
31 "For this reason a man will leave his father
and mother and be united to his wife,
and the two will become one flesh."
32 This is a profound mystery--but I
am talking about Christ and the church.
33 However, each one of you also must
love his wife as he loves himself,
and the wife must respect her husband

Revelation 19: (NIV):

Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear."
(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

Does Jesus take his Bride out of the world
before the "wedding of the Lamb" (pretrib)
or after the "wedding of the Lamb" (postrib)?


7. Mystery of the Indwelling Christ in Believers

John 15:4 (NIV)
Remain in me, and I will remain in you.
No branch can bear fruit by itself;
it must remain in the vine.
Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Galations 2:20 (NIV)
I have been crucified with Christ and I no
longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I live in the body, I live
by faith in the Son of God, who loved me
and gave himself for me.

Philippians 1:21 (NIV)
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Colossians 1:25-26 (NIV)
the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages
and generations, but is now disclosed
to the saints.
27 To them God has chosen to make known
among the Gentiles the glorious
riches of this mystery, which is
Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Woah! Christianity has the other mystery religions
beatten hands down! Christ who is God dwells
within each saint!

What glory is there in the Pretribulation Rapture?
ALL GLORY!

What glory is there in dragging into the Tribulation?


8. Mystery of God, Even Christ

Colossians 2:2b (nKJV):
attaining to all riches
of the full assurance of understanding, to the
knowledge of the mystery of God, both of
the Father and of Christ,

1 Chrinthians 2:7 (nKJV):
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery,
the hidden wisdom which God ordained
before the ages for our glory.

Interesting, "before the ages". Well, then if
this wisdom of God was before the ages, it is
certainly before the Church Age.
And the infinite knowledge of God is incarnate
in Christ. And the infinite wisdome of God
which was incarnate in Christ is "for our glory".

How is it for our glory, we the saints of the Living
God, if have to go through the Tribulation period
as some nay-sayers promote?


9. Mystery of Inquity/Lawlessness

This mystery deals with Satan's ongoing
master plan to bring forth the Antichrist
in the End Times, yet the outcome is clear.
Will Jesus let His Church be around when
the Antichrist is punished on the earth?

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8a (nKJV):
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at
work; only He who now restrains will do so
until He is taken out of the way.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, ... "

Interesting, this mystery is explained in the
pretribulation rapture book of the Bible:
2 Thessalonians. We repeat the timeline shown
in 2 Thessalonains that is clearly specified there:

[2]1. The Church Age (with it's tribulation)
2. Day of Christ:
-2a. falling away; our gathering together to Him;
--removal of the restrainer
-2b. the revelation of the man of sin
-2c. the period of deception; the Tribulation
-2d. the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
-2e. the destruction of the man of sin[/2]

2 Thessalonians 3:2 (nKJV):
But the Lord is faithful, who will establish
you and guard you from the evil one.

And this is all summed up in one word:

'\o/' Maranatha! '\o/'


10. Mystery of Godliness

1 Timothy 3:16 (nKJV):
And without controversy great
is the mystery of Godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.

And that is just what God had done up
to the time of the writing.
Later He will:

Rapture the Church, the Bride of Christ
Marry the Church in Heaven (Tribulation on earth)
Return to earth at the Second Advent
Destroy the Antichrist and bind Satan
Rule the earth on the Throne of David.


11. Mystery of the Seven Stars/Candlesticks

Revelation 1:20 (nKJV):
The mystery of the seven stars which you
saw in My right hand, and the seven golden
lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of
the seven churches, and the seven lampstands
which you saw are the seven churches.

Oh yes, Sweet Jesus! The 7-stars,
the 7-golden lampstands -- the Church age
in double completeness.
And when the church on earth is complete,
the Christ, Jesus, will rapture the church.
And the wedding supper of the Lamb will
take place in heaven as the Tribulation
takes place on earth.


12. Mystery, Babylon the Great:

This mystery forcasts the final
world apostate church of
the Tribulation after the Rapture.

Revelation 17:5 (nKJV), emphasis from the source:

And on her forehead a name was written:
MYSTERY,
BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE
ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


13. Mystery of God

This mystery announces the conclusion of God's
program to consummate history during the
the last days of the voice of the seventh angel".

All the mystery prophecies concerning the
Kingdom of Christ will be fulfilled,
relevant to Israel
and the world leading to the reign of the Messiah.

Revelation 10:7 (nKJV):
but in the days of the sounding of the seventh
angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery
of God would be finished, as He declared
to His servants the prophets.
---------------------------------------

 

[UUall]

1COR.15[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So at what time shall “we ALL be changed”? When shall we live again?

JOB 14 [12] So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me![14] If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, TILL MY CHANGE COME.

Seems we did not have to post all those scriptural proofs in order to prove there is no rapture. Alls we really had to do is ask Job.Job knew when “we shall ALL be changed”. According to the scriptures its around the time of the wrath of God. After the heavens be no more. Its in the timeframe of the DAY OF THE LORD that “we shall ALL be changed”.

ISAIAH 34 [2] For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.[3] Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.[4] And all the host of HEAVEN SHALL BE DISSOLVED, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. [8] For it is THE DAY OF THE LORD'S VENGEANCE, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Yup. The Day of the Lord. The heavens shall be dissolved (verse 4). Or as Job would say, after the heavens be no more, then we shall live again. Then we shall all be changed.

MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, AND THE STARS SHALL FALL FROM HEAVEN, AND THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS SHALL BE SHAKEN: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So Matthew 24 says it all.

The tribulation
Heavens shaken (Day of the Lord)
The last trumpet
And the gathering of Gods people in the twinkling of an eye.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

UUall,

Amen. Well saying.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Also, in Luke 21:28 tells us, when AFTER these things come to pass, THEN we all shall look up for our REDEMPTION. This is speak of our body all shall be changed into immortablity. Same with Romans 8:19-23 tells us, that we are earnest looking forward for our body to be redemption at Christ's coming.

Clear, the Bible teaches us there is only one coming of Christ at the end of the age, not two comings.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by UUall:
1COR.15[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So at what time shall “we ALL be changed”? When shall we live again?

JOB 14 [12] So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me![14] If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, TILL MY CHANGE COME.

Seems we did not have to post all those scriptural proofs in order to prove there is no rapture. Alls we really had to do is ask Job.Job knew when “we shall ALL be changed”. According to the scriptures its around the time of the wrath of God. After the heavens be no more. Its in the timeframe of the DAY OF THE LORD that “we shall ALL be changed”.

Rev 19 describes the day in detail.

Rev 20 shows that the first general Resurrection in the future to John's Day - will happen at that same day.

This is the same resurrection of the "Blessed and holy" dead in Christ that we see in 1Thess 4, 1Cor 15 and is the promised rapture event of John 14 fulfilled.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Also, in Luke 21:28 tells us, when AFTER these things come to pass, THEN we all shall look up for our REDEMPTION. This is speak of our body all shall be changed into immortablity. Same with Romans 8:19-23 tells us, that we are earnest looking forward for our body to be redemption at Christ's coming.

Clear, the Bible teaches us there is only one coming of Christ at the end of the age, not two comings.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

That is true. Matt 24 provides the sequence in detail - explicitly just as we see it in Rev 19 and 20 and just as 1Thess4 and 2Thess 2 show it.

In Christ,

Bob