1 Cor.15 The rapture?

[BobRyan]

15-yard penalty for not knowing what
'mystery' means though it is cleary shown what 'mystery'
means in the passages noted below.
In the HOly Scripture, 'mystery' refers to that which
wasn't known in the Old Testament but is reavealed in
the New Testament.

Unfortunately you did not "show" that in the text you gave. You show that the followers of Christ had revelation and those that did not follow the MEssiah pre-cross were left with "mysteries" (in Matt 12) - and that is accepted.

1Peter 1
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven things into which angels long to look.

 

[EdSutton]

Original question was: Is I Cor.15 the "rapture?" And I want to know is this "Biblical"?
Answer: No, The Bible doesn't use that 'term'.
Question: What is this event then?
Answer: This is what it is called in Scripture. The changing, catching up, and catching away, described in I Cor. 15, I Thes. 4, and II Thes. 2:3 respectively, and I believe, symbolized by the call "Come up here..." to John in Rev. 3:1. The believers, said to be in Christ, are included. The dead are raised, first, and those yet living are taken up with them to "...ever be with the Lord". This is what it is called in Scripture.
Question: That seems like a round about way to describe this event.
Answer: I agree.
Question: Can you suggest a single appropriate Biblical term to sort of describe this event?
Answer: Of the three above, 'changing'. Outside of that, nope!
Question: How about 'translated'?
Answer: "'Translated' is an accurate assessment of what happens to the whole Body of Christ here, but one (the 'translation') I don't use here, for I do not think it is appropriate.
Question: Why not? Weren't Enoch and Elijah 'translated' 'up'? If it is good enough for them, why isn't it good enough for what you are describing here? They ain't no different from me!
Answer: That's three questions and a statement, but I'll answer anyway. Actually they are different from you. They are not part of teh body,
Question: Can you suggest an inclusive term for this?
Answer: Actually, yes- a 'theological' term.
Question: Mind telling me what it is, or is it a mystery?
Answer: Well, the event is described as a mystery, but the term is not.
Question: What is the term? You're killing me here.
Answer: 'Rapture'!
Comment/Question: "RAPTURE!? -- RAP- BUT I Thought that- oh what's the use. Well just when is this supposed to happen?
Answer: That's for me to know, and you to find out.
Comment: You don't have to get so snooty!
Comment: I was not being snooty. I'll know the trumpet when the trumpet sounds, and unless you know when, that's when you'll find out.

Folks, this slightly humorous exchange is a good sum of exactly what I believe is outlined in Scripture. A key verse cited is II Thes. 2:3. The Greek word used there is 'apostosia'; the meaning of which is departure, and I believes refers in context to the departure of the Holy Spirit, allowing the rise and revealing of the Antichrist. I'm planning on leaving; I'm not of Israel. I am not hanging around for Jacob's Trouble, the Abomination of Desolation, or the battle of Armageddon. For those who do, I'll be waiting to say hello when you get there! Heh! Heh!
Ed

 

[Ed Edwards]

EdSutton

Original question was: Is I Cor.15 the "rapture?"
And I want to know is this "Biblical"?
Answer: No, The Bible doesn't use that 'term'.

The answer is "Yes". Perchange your Bible doesn't used that term. But THE BIBLE
uses that term.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV1611 Edition):
Then we which are aliue, and remaine, shalbe caught vp together
with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the aire:
and so shall wee euer bee with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (The Latin Vulgate):
deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum
illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera
et sic semper cum Domino erimus

'Rapiemur' is the proper form of Latin for its usage in that situation.
The root word is that from which we get the English word 'Rapture'.

The word RAPTURE is in THE BIBLE. The Bibleis NOT limited to one
and only one language or one and only one translation within that
language. Go check out:

EdSutton:

Question: What is this event then?
Answer: This is what it is called in Scripture. The changing,
catching up, and catching away, described in I Cor. 15,
I Thes. 4, and II Thes. 2:3 respectively, and I believe,
symbolized by the call "Come up here..." to John in Rev. 3:1.
The believers, said to be in Christ, are included. The dead are
raised, first, and those yet living are taken up with them
to "...ever be with the Lord". This is what it is called in Scripture.

2Th 2:1 (KJV1611 Edition):
Now wee beseech you, brethren, by the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ,
and by our gathering together vnto him,

The 'rapture' is called 'our gathering'.

2Th 2:3 (KJV1611 Edition):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes, for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first, and that man of sinne
bee reuealed, the sonne of perdition,

The 'rapture' is called a 'falling away' (like a 'falling away' from the earth).

2Th 2:1 (Geneva Bible, 1587):
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ,
and by our assembling vnto him,

The 'rapture' is called 'our asembling unto Him'.


2Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible, 1587):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come,
except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne
be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

The 'rapture' is called a 'departing' as 'departing' the earth.

-Ed the first.

 

[BobRyan]

Well that is interesting -- we both agree that the rapture event of 1Thess 4 IS ALSO the rapture event of 2Thess 2.

That is a huge step foreward!!

The NT saints of 1Thess 4 were in distress because they had friends who unfortunately died before the 2nd coming so they thought these friends were out of luck. They thought the return of Christ was right around the corner and they did not understand how the resurrection of the righteous (the one John calls the FIRST resurrection) plays into the 2nd coming - the appearing again of Christ. So in 1Thess 4 Paul shows that “our gathering together to Him” happens at Christ’s return and includes the resurrection of all the saints. (John calls this the “First resurrection” in Rev 20:4-5)


In 2 Tim 2 we learn that the source for these errors regarding escatology in matters like the resurrection and the 2nd coming are coming from inside the church.

2 Tim 2
18 men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.

In 2Thess 2 they suffer from a related problem regarding our “gathering together to him” (which we learned in 1Thess 4 is also the time of the First Resurrection – the resurrection of the Holy and Blessed – the saints – the dead in Christ)


The focus of 2Thess 2 is "Our gathering together to Him" which as we already saw in 1Thess 4 happens at "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ".

Paul corrects the error being foisted onto the church regarding "our gathering together to Him" in 2Thess 2. In so doing he is also correcting the view on the event at which we are gathered together to Christ -- the "Day of the Lord".

Paul shows that the Day of the Lord is when we are gathered to Christ. - this is the Return of Christ as He promised saying "I will come again" John 14:1-3.

2Thess 2
1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

2 Thess 2 says that our being gathered to Christ will not happen until after the antichrist the man of sin and lawlessness is seen to do his work

When Paul says "IT WILL NOT COME" unless the apostasy comes first AND the man of lawlessness is revealed" he is quick to insert "so let no one in anyway deceive you".

The deception they were offered is that our gathering together to Christ at the 1Thess 4 focal point for the church - could happen BEFORE the events Paul says must happen FIRST.

Are any still deceived on that same point today?

2Th 2
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first[, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

This is the summary argument showing the error of those who were in error regarding the resurrection of the saints and “our gathering together to Him”. It debunks that error "in a nutshell" so to speak.

Then Paul goes into "more detail". He backs up starting with the present time (His present day)and walks the reader through to the future --

2Th 2
5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

The cure for their error had already been given by Paul - according to vs 5 above.

He points to the present existence of that evil lawless one and takes them through to the future when that lawless one is "revealed" when Christ exposes him at the "appearing" - the "Appearance of His coming"

2Thess 2
6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

That completes the sweep of history showing the revelation of not only the wicked one but also the appearing of Christ that follows. He shows that this wickedness continues “until he is taken out of the way” by the appearing of Christ – which as they saw in 1Thess 4 is the moment also of the resurrection of the saints. Because 1Thess 4 has already been give to them all Paul needs to do is point them to the time of Christ’s appearing to solve the problem they are having with the timing of the resurrection.

Then Paul clarifies with more detail about that lawless one.

2Thess 2
9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,

No part of this mentions the work of the AntiChrist or man of sin AFTER the appearing of Christ. No activity at all is attributed to the man of sin after Christ appears and puts a stop to it.

Paul points out this important list of events that must preceed the appearing and the resurrection that is associated with it (see 1Thess 4 for the appearing of Christ, our gathering together to Him and the associated resurrection. Truth already given to the church of the Thessalonians)

===========================================
The members of the Church in Thessalonica were under deception regarding the time of the resurrection of the righteous at the Coming of Christ – the Hope and focus of the NT Church. So Paul provides the much needed correction by telling them that -

1. 1, BEFORE the resurrection they were looking for would come the revelation of the end-times antichrist "man of sin" vs 3,8

2. BEFORE the resurrection they were looking for would come the falling away within the church - the apostasy the dark ages 3

3. BEFORE the resurrection they were looking for would come the withdrawing of the Holy Spirit, Vs 7

4. BEFORE the resurrection they were looking for would come the revealing of Satan himself attempting to counterfeit Christ showing himself as if HE is god! Vs 4, 9

It would be wise for us to listen to those words of Paul as well since many are still deceived on those same points.

2Thess 2
1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

The context is the “Coming of Christ” AND “our gathering together to Him”. The rapture!

Christ said in John 14 “I GO to prepare a place for you”. We have a place in heaven – in His Father’s house. And Christ stated “I will Come AGAIN” and stated the purpose as being “THAT where I am there you may be also”. So our gathering together to Him is the focus of John 14, 1Thess 4 and now of 2 Thess 2:1-5

2Thess 2
2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

The early church was facing the problem of false letters from Paul. The false teachers were claiming that the dead had already been raised. We see the dead raised with Christ in Matt 27 and this may be what they were referring too – using it to mislead the saints of the NT.

Paul points to the same problem when writing to Timothy –

2Tim 2[/b]
17Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
18who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.
19Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his,"

Those letters “may have” contained doctrinal error – including the error that the return of Christ had already taken place. “The Day of the Lord” is equated here with the return – or “coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”.

2Thess 2
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Paul denies an “immediate rapture” POV – stating that certain “events must come first” including the apostasy “falling away” of the Christian church from truth. The word “anti-christ” is not used here – rather it is “son of destruction”, “man of lawlessness”.


4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

The actions of this future “man of lawlessness” is to exalt himself above “so-called-gods” (Those that are not really god) and to seat himself in the temple of god. (Given the context this may be considered as the so-called-temple of god). The real temple of God after the cross is described in Heb 8 and the statement is made that if Christ were on earth “He would NOT be a priest” in the temple on earth (Heb 8:4). A temple without priests to minister- does not “function” and can not be the temple of God.

Christ said that the leaders of the Jews sat “in the seat of Moses” (Matt 23:2) because “Moses took his seat to serve as judge” (Exodus 18:13) – it is assuming a position (of authority in this case) – not a “place” in Israel.

In the same way in - in Psalms 1:1 David commands us not to “sit in the seat of scoffers”

Clearly this enemy is not allowed into Heaven to sit on God’s throne or in the Heb 8:1-4 temple in heaven. And to argue that he is seated in the non-existent temple of God in the Most Holy place where the glory of God is – is to rely more on imagination today than an actual fact in Israel since there is no such temple and God has not placed His glory there since even before the time of Christ.

The earthly sanctuary – in service – marks the period of time when the heavenly sanctuary did not function.
In Heb 10:9 the point is clearly made “He takes away the first to establish the second”. The earthly temple system needed to end. In Heb 9 the point is made again that the way into the heavenly temple is not open while the first temple has a valid, authorized service taking place. This means that the earthly sanctuary service as merely a shadow or prelude to the antitype – the heavenly sanctuary service.

Rev 15:8 shows us that the heavenly sanctuary service continues to function right up until the start of the 7 last plagues as they are sent to fall upon the earth.

Rev 15
:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power; and no one was able to enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.

2Thess 2:
5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

Paul says that

8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
[/quote]

This “appearing” is the same appearing we saw in 1Thess 4.

This appearing is simply “of His Coming” – the one He promised in John 14:3 “I will come again”.

Then Paul goes back to the subject of the great antichrist the great man of sin – Satan himself.

2Thess 2
9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

The key at the end is the same today – we must receive a love of the truth so as to be saved. Why is this so important? Why can’t we just love Christ and forget about always having to love the truth and want more of the truth? Because Christ IS “the Way the Truth and the Life” John 14 - and the Spirit of Christ IS the “Spirit of Truth” John 16. The “WORD” became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1) as we see even in Rev 19 at Christ’s appearing He is even then still called “The WORD”. To love Christ is to Love the Word of God as well!

In John 15 Christ says “IF I abide in you and you in me” and then explains that at “MY Word abiding in you and you abiding in My Word”

2Thess 2
11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

No wickedness proceeds past this focal point of 2Thess 2! – God judges “ALL” – according to the text.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Paul shows that the Day of the Lord is when we
are gathered to Christ. - this is the Return of Christ
as He promised saying "I will come again" John 14:1-3.

Amen, Brother -- Preach it!

The Day of the Lord here is the 70th week of Daniel; a
7-year-day. The gathering of the Christians starts pretribulation;
the complete Return of the Lord finishes the 70th week,
the Tribulation Time, the Great Tribulation, etc.
All this is done in ONE DAY: the 70th Week of Daniel.

 

[UUall]

Putting aside the movie theatrics, can we do with 1Thes4 as we done with 1Cor.15?

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 THES. 5 [1] But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. [2] For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD so cometh as a thief in the night. [3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION cometh upon them, as travail upon a WOMAN WITH CHILD; and they shall not escape.

Doesn’t [1Thes.5] explain to us that [1Thes.4] takes place on The Day of the Lord? There is no scriptural gap between the above scriptures. 1Thes.5 directly follows 1Thes.4 verse 18. It clearly says that the goins on of 1Thes.4 takes place on the Day of the Lord. Sure does!

 

[UUall]

ED Wrote
The Day of the Lord here is the 70th week of Daniel; a 7-year-day.

So Ed, are you saying the tribulation last 7 yrs and the Day of the Lord last 7 yrs? Can you show me this in scripture? I already know of Daniels 70th week. The stories ive heard of this last week(put out at the end of time) are very amusing. Almost Jack Van Impyish! Are you that shallow?

 

[BobRyan]

Doesn’t [1Thes.5] explain to us that [1Thes.4] takes place on The Day of the Lord? There is no scriptural gap between the above scriptures. 1Thes.5 directly follows 1Thes.4 verse 18. It clearly says that the goins on of 1Thes.4 takes place on the Day of the Lord. Sure does!

All very true.

The 1Thess 4 rapture event takes place on the great day described in Rev 19 and in 2thess 2 as "the coming of the Lord".

It is the great promise that Christ set for the pre-cross saints in John 14:1-3

 

[Ed Edwards]

I have to go to bed.

I do not think that a Triune God has
one and only one DAY OF GOD;
I do not think that a Triune Lord has
one one only one DAY OF THE LORD.
There might be only one DAY OF CHRIST
cause there is only one Christ.

Generically, the DAY OF THE LORD
is any time in which God interceedes in
the afairs of mankind. The first interceeding
was THE FIRST ADVENT when Jesus shed His
Blood, the Perfect/Eternal sacrifice.
The second interceeding will be THE SECOND
ADVENT which Jesus:
1. comes to get His own
2. comes in power to destroy the Antichrist
(Beast from the Sea, Man of Sin, etc),
the Beast kingdom, and set up the earthly,
physical, literal Millinnial Messanic Kingdom.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by UUall:
ED Wrote
The Day of the Lord here is the 70th week of Daniel; a 7-year-day.

So Ed, are you saying the tribulation last 7 yrs and the Day of the Lord last 7 yrs? Can you show me this in scripture? I already know of Daniels 70th week. The stories ive heard of this last week(put out at the end of time) are very amusing.

Good question!

In fact can you show in scripture that Bible timelines like the 70 weeks of Daniel can be "Sliced up to fit man's traditions" instead of just keeping the timeline intact (the way we do with ALL Bible timelines!!).

 

[Ed Edwards]

Romans 1:11-29 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):

1 I ask, then, has God rejected His people? Absolutely not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the Elijah section--how he pleads with God against Israel?
3 Lord, they have killed Your prophets, torn down Your altars; and I am the only one left, and they are trying to take my life!
4 But what was God's reply to him? I have left 7,000 men for Myself who have not bowed down to Baal.
5 In the same way, then, there is also at the present time a remnant chosen by grace.
6 Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.
7 What then? Israel did not find what it was looking for, but the elect did find it. The rest were hardened,
8 as it is written: God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that cannot see and ears that cannot hear, to this day .
9 And David says: Let their feasting become a snare and a trap, a pitfall and a retribution to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent continually.
11 I ask, then, have they stumbled so as to fall? Absolutely not! On the contrary, by their stumbling, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous.
12 Now if their stumbling brings riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full number bring!
13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. In view of the fact that I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14 if I can somehow make my own people jealous and save some of them.
15 For if their being rejected is world reconciliation, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?
16 Now if the firstfruits offered up are holy, so is the whole batch. And if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, though a wild olive branch, were grafted in among them, and have come to share in the rich root of the cultivated olive tree,
18 do not brag that you are better than those branches. But if you do brag--you do not sustain the root, but the root sustains you.
19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20 True enough; they were broken off by unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either.
22 Therefore, consider God's kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness toward you--if you remain in His kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
23 And even they, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God has the power to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut off from your native wild olive, and against nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these--the natural branches--be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this secret: a partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written: The Liberator will come from Zion; He will turn away godlessness from Jacob.
27 And this will be My covenant with them, when I take away their sins. 28 Regarding the gospel, they are enemies for your advantage, but regarding election, they are loved because of their forefathers,
29 since God's gracious gifts and calling are irrevocable.

 

[BobRyan]

There is "no timeline" in Romans 11.

At least we can "all" see that.

In Daniel 9 we start with the "70 year timeline" of Jeremiah and at the end of Daniel 9 we see the 490 year timeline (70 weeks of years) - the ONLY timeline that your view needs to slice and dice.

To justify that abuse of the text in Dan 9 - you want to go to a NON-TIMELINE (events without a time given) and claim that God gave some number (as in the case of the 490 year TIMELINE) in Romans 11 -- and the numeric timeline of Romans 11 (that does not actually exist) is to be sliced and diced using the same abuse that you employ on the Messianic Timeline of Daniel 9!!

But obviously even a cursory review of the text shows NO TIMELINE AT ALL in Romans 11!!

Rather it provides reference to "an event with no time given AT ALL!!"

The fact that THIS is your best excuse for the abuse you would make of an ACTUAL timeline -- is speaking "loud and clear"!!

Nice going.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[EdSutton]

There may not be a "timeline" per se expressly stated in so many words as such in Romans but there surely looks like an historical progression, here. Well, to me at least. Let's see: Abraham, Benjamin, Elijah, salvation to the Gentiles, Israel's blindness until (note that little word, 'until', and note the change here from past tense to future tense) the fullness of the Gentiles "comes in" , "And THEN all Israel SHALL BE saved, the liberator comes, and the covenant will be established when the sins are taken away. The mention of David slightly outside this progression does not invalidate it, for David is named as a source of an explanatory scripture, not as the next thing happening. Since one has to explain better than I do, sometimes apparently, I shall here explain 'And THEN', as I rendered verse 26 is, I believe, the correct sense of the Greek "`kai `'outOs", which I shall now use as 'kai outos'. An usage of outos kai is an anthesis, and though used some is not here, for the sense Paul is using does not intend to show contrast, but rather continuity. On a word by word basis, this would be rendered 'and' 'so/thus/ in this manner/ consequently/THEN' among others. Here, following the New Life and WWE NT, although all other renderings are permissible as is the HCSB above. I just see 'THEN' as the best rendering. That given, as I see the progression, "Ah shore would liken ta' git a name fer it all. Let's see if'n Ah kin come up with one. By golly, Ah thinks Ah got one that fits; Ah'll call it a timelin...!"
Ed

 

[EdSutton]

I do apologize to all for my poor attempts to render a Greek word on an 'English' keyboard, and with his very limited skills, the 'typer' makes 'typos'.
Ed

 

[Ed Edwards]

BobRyan: //There is "no timeline" in Romans 11.//

Very good. There is no timeline in Romans 11.
Nobody claimed it, but there is no timeline there.
So you have won one point for being right and lost a point
because nobody brought forth that point.

The reason I put in the major part of Romans 11 is:
1. I didn't have time to post.
2. Romans chapter 11 answers your question
(without mentioning TIME LINE)

[quoate]In fact can you show in scripture that Bible timelines
like the 70 weeks of Daniel can be "Sliced up to fit man's traditions"
instead of just keeping the timeline intact (the way
we do with ALL Bible timelines!!).[/quote]

Please remind us of examples of 'ALL OTHER TIMELINES'.
You have mentioned already the 70-year timeline of Jeremiah for
the Babylonian captivity.

BTW, here is THE DIVISION OF THE TIMELINE OF Daniel:

Daniel 9:24-27, timeline divisions noted with bolding.
The three stars show the division between the discussion
of Prince Messiah and the Prince that shall come
/see also Daniel 11/ (KJV1611 Edition):

Seuentie weekes are determined vpon thy people,
and vpon thy holy citie, to finish the transgression,
and to make an ende of sinnes,
and to make reconciliation for iniquitie,
and to bring in euerlasting righteousnes,
and to seale vp the vision and prophecie,
and to anoynt the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and vnderstand, that from the going foorth
of the commandement to restore
and to build Ierusalem, vnto the Messiah the Prince,
shall be seuen weekes; and threescore and two weekes,
the street shall be built againe, and the wall, euen in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weekes, shall Messiah be cut off,
but not for himselfe,
***
and the people of the Prince that shall come,
shall destroy the citie, and the Sanctuarie,
and the ende thereof shall be with a flood,
and vnto the ende of the warre desolations are determined.
27 And hee shall confirme the couenant with many for one weeke:
and in the midst of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice
and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of abominations
hee shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation,
& that determined, shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

It is the TIMELINE SCRIPTURE itself that divides the first
69 (7:62) weeks and the last week. The first 69 weeks go from
the going forth of the commandment to restore Jerusalem
until MESSIAH THE PRINCE (i.e. Jesus).
The last weeks is about 'the Prince that shall come'.
Obviously the city and sanctuary were destroyed by the Romans
in 70AD. So at least the 40 years from the death of Jesus
and His Wonderful Resurrection to 70AD are OFF THE TIMELINE.

If it weren't for the gap you and I, gentiles, would not NOT
have been saved and would NOT have been having this discussion.
Our discussion PROVES THE GAP between the 69th and 70th week.

 

[Ed Edwards]

The following quote comes from another topic:
Other Christian Denomination
Did God change his mind? (Page 4)

//Just to point out one of tha many places in the bible that
flatly contradict OSAS, consider the book of Revelation where
Jesus himself tells us believers that unless
we overcome we will never see heaven.

"He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death."

//I would really like to know how an OSAS believer can interpret
that. To me, this shows the conditional nature of salvation
beyond any reasonable doubt. So much for unconditional security.//

1. "unless we overcome we will never see heaven"
is different from ""He who overcomes will not be hurt
by the second death."
So you cannot prove the contention: contention:
"unless we overcome we will never see heaven" from that verse.
However, I conceed that the proposition: "unless we overcome
we will never see heaven" is true and is shown elsewere in
the Bible.

2. The contention: ""He who overcomes NOT will be hurt
by the second death." is NOT proved by using the
Bible Verse: "He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death."
They are two seperate contentions and must be proved independantly
(one does NOT logically follow from the other).

This lack of logic is common among those who don't know what OSAS means
or really what 'salvation' means.

I also find many who have bought into the Post-Tribulation Only
theory have also bought into the no-OSAS. These two errors tend to
cause NO HOPE. According to these (no-OSAS, no pretribualtion rapture)
we can look forward to entering the Tribulation period where if
we (like 999,990 out of a million will) overcome not, we will be
fried for eternity in the hottest part of hell.

(minority report, we don't look forward to, we are in - the
a-tribulation/rapture a-mill theory).

Sorry, pretribulation rapture (a part of premillinnial Second Advent)
is more like the Bible.

Now, why is 1/4 of the New Testament about what a person should do
now that they are a Christian?

First let me define OSAS (once saved, always saved):

John 3:16 (version in Ed's head):
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten
Son so that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but
have eternal life.

What I call OSAS is what the bolded phrase means:
will not perish but have eternal life.

Here are some things we are saved FROM when Jesus saves us:
1. paying the penalty of sin (Jesus already paid it)
2. entering the Tribulation Period (Beast Kingdom)
3. suffering the second death

OSAS is about the faithfulness of God not the fidelity of man.
Jesus saves.

The 1/4 of the N.T. about what a Christian should do is
a good (self examination, we are not to judge one another) list
of what we will be doing IF WE GOT SAVED BY JESUS.
If Jesus really did save me, then I will overcome.

And if I fail Jesus?
1 John 1:9 (HCSB):
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive
us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

ZEPH. 2 [1] Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together,
O nation not desired;
[2] Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass
as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord
come upon you, before the day of the Lord's anger come upon you.
[3] SEEK YE THE LORD, all ye meek of the earth,
which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness,
seek meekness: IT MAY BE YE SHALL BE HID IN THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER.

See? We will be here on earth during the Day of the Lord.
But were gonna have a good hiding place.

Written by a Jew (Zeph.) to Jews (O nation not desired).
Is the author of the "see" statement an unsaved Jew?
At the pretribulation rapture, the mostly Gentile church
is involved plus those Messanic Jews who beleive Jesus is
their Messiah. The Tribulation Period after this Gentile Age
and before the Millinnial MEssanic Kingdom Age is God's plan
for saving a maximum number of Jews (some 18 Million, if
the pretribulation rapture is today).

Strawman:

Did Jesus lose the Jews in the first advent
and have to make up plan B (save some Gentiles) to save face?

Nope. Go study in the KJV the phrase "before the foundation of the World"
and "since the foundation of the World".
You will find before creation HOUR (foundation of the World)
that God's plan to have Christ die for the sins of the mostly
Gentiles - that plan was there "before the foundation of the World"
and that the plan to save the Jews (there were given a chance in
the first advent but blew it) was present only
"from the foundation of the World" or "since the foundation of the World".

 

[Ed Edwards]

Other Christian Denominations
1 Cor.15 The rapture?

We have been using the following definitions on the BB for awile now:

rapture1 - the raising of a human person by Jesus
---------- for transport to heaven, this is an event
---------- which happens before the Tribulation period

resurrection1 - - the raising of a human person by Jesus
---------- for retention on earth, this is an event
---------- which happens after the Tribulation period

rapture2 - the falling away from this earth of living saints
---------- who are given new bodies for temporal and heavenly
---------- habitations

resurrection2 - the bringing back to life of dead saints
---------- who are given new bodies for temporal and heavenly
---------- habitations

resurrection3 - - the bringing back to life of dead people
---------- who are judged and damned eternally

Generally the numeric subscripts are NOT included so everybody has
to guess what everybody else is really talking about???

So Matthew 24 says it all.

The tribulation
Heavens shaken (Day of the Lord)
The last trumpet
And the gathering of Gods people in the twinkling of an eye[/b]

I'm glad you liked the milk.
Wait till you find out God has promised us an
endless supply of PRIME RIB with the best B-B-Q
sauce on a physical/literal earth.

1COR.15[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot
inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption
inherit incorruption.
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not
all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall
be raised incorruptible, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption
and this mortal must put on immortality.

So at what time shall “we ALL be changed”? When shall we live again?

We who are in Christ today will either die and come with Jesus
to the rapture1 (a resurrection2 followed by a rapture2)
or be on earth at the pretribulation rapture1. The rapture1 features
new eternal bodies like Jesus had/has after His Resurrection.
While the Tribualtion Period is going on on the earth for 7-years,
we Christians will be 'married' to Jesus as part of the 'Bride of Christ'.
We Christians shall appear before the Judgement (Greek: Bema) Seat
of Christ for our rewards. We all have glorified bodies like Jesus
at that time so the glorified body is NOT one of the rewards.
The Crowns you can check (look up 'Crown' in any KJV concordance or
Bible search engine) for youself, they are rewards for those things
done in the first life for Jesus.

Another reward for some Gentile Age Christian elect saints is
to serve alongside Jesus in the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom on
earth. So the people on earth in the Messanic Kingdom will be:

1. Church Age elect saints with glorified (eternal) bodies
2. Jews with human bodies (but apparently, when Jesus is bought,
such bodies may last 100s of years - like from Adam to Noah
3. Gentiles which came from the sheep nations (see Matthew 25)
in human bodies.

JOB 14 [12] So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be
no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave,
that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath
be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me
[14] If a man die, shall he live again? all the day
of my appointed time will I wait, TILL MY CHANGE COME.

Seems we did not have to post all those scriptural proofs in order
to prove there is no rapture. Alls we really had to do is ask Job

Apparently Job knew nothing of the Second Advent, the Messanic Kingdom,
expecially nothing of RESURRECTION. What he really said is that
he Trusts God to do the right thing (which i will do also)
and when we die we stay dead (though we have the meat of the
Resurrection of Jesus which says we shall live eternally.)

ISAIAH 34 [2] For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations,
and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them,
he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
[3] Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink
shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains
shall be melted with their blood.
[4] And all the host of HEAVEN SHALL BE DISSOLVED,
and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll:
and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf
falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from
the fig tree.
[8] For it is THE DAY OF THE LORD'S VENGEANCE,
and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Yup. The Day of the Lord. The heavens shall be dissolved (verse 4).

Isaiah saw the Day of the Lord's vengence (the Tribulation period)
and the Day of the LOrd's end of the earth - good milk.
Isaiah was not privelaged (in this passage) to see the time in between, the
Millinnial Messanic Kingdom - yummy meat!

 

[Ed Edwards]

ISAIAH 26 [19] THY DEAD MEN SHALL LIVE, TOGETHER WITH MY DEAD BODY SHAL
THEY ARISE. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust:
for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast
out the dead.
[20] COME, MY PEOPLE, ENTER THOU INTO THY CHAMBERS
AND SHUT THY DOORS ABOUT THEE: HIDE THYSELF AS IT
WERE FOR A LITTLE MOMENT, UNTIL THE INDIGNATION BE OVERPAST.
[21] For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish
the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also
shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

No need for a rapture.

Ah, so Isaiah did see the pretribulation rapture1.
After the rapture1 those who are in Christ shall be in Heaven
which the indignation (Tribulation period) passes.

Yep,

PSALM 37 [7] Rest in the Lord, and WAIT PATIENTLY FOR HIM:
fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way,
because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.
[8] Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself
in any wise to do evil.
[9] FOR EVILDOERS SHALL BE CUT OFF: BUT THOSE THAT WAIT
UPON THE LORD, THEY SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH.
[10] For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not
be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place,
and it shall not be.
[11] But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall deligh
themselves in the abundance of peace.

Yup. Be patient. The bad guys shall be cut off.
Wait upon the Lord, and we shall inherit the earth.

In pretribulation Rapture1 eschatology this is worthwhile,
we shall own the earth for 1,000 years.
In a-mill eschatology this is useless, the earth shall
disolve in the self-same 60-minute hour that the Lord
gives us the earth. Sorry, there are times when
1 hour IS UNEQUAL TO 1,000 years

 

[Ed Edwards]

Rom 11:26 (KJV1611 Edition):
And so all Israel shall be saued,
as it is written, There shall come out of Sion
the Deliuerer, and shall turne
away vngodlinesse from Iacob.

'and' from Strong's:

G2532
καί
kai
kahee
Apparently a primary particle, having
a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative
force; and, also, even, so, then, too, etc.;
often used in connection (or composition) with
other particles or small words: - and, also,
both, but, even, for, if, indeed, likewise,
moreover, or, so, that, then, therefore, when,
yea, yet.


'so' from Strong's:
G3779
οὕτω
houtō
hoo'-to
Or, before a vowel, οὕτως houtōs hoo'-toce.
From G3778; in this way (referring to what
precedes or follows): - after that, after (in)
this manner, as, even (so), for all that,
like (-wise), no more, on this fashion (-wise),
so (in like manner), thus, what.


Yes, Brother EdSutton, looks like
TIMELINE right there in Romans Chapter 11.

Anyway, for sure, the transplanted branch
is FULL JUSTIFICATION for the gap between
Daniel's 69 and 70th week.

2 Peter 3:9 (HCSB):
The Lord does not delay His promise,
as some understand delay,
but is patient with you,
not wanting any to perish,
but all to come to repentance.

Ah ha, the Gentile Repentance GAP.
tee hee, you know, the one NOT mentioned
but talked about a lot

 

[Ed Edwards]

1) From Adam until the descending of New Jerusalem,
how many ages are there?

I don't know. The Bible doesn't say.

2) Is the Holy Spirit required for salvation?

Yes.

3) Does/Has God changed?

Nope.

4) Does/Has Jesus changed (besides the obvious)?

Nope.

5) Is the Holy Spirit "raptured" at the same
time as the believers?

No. "Raptured" means to get a glorified body without
dying. The Holy Spirit doesn't need a body.

6) Who are the 144,000 sealed Jews?

A group of Messanic Jews from the church age
raptured at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
selected for special service on the earth
during the Tribulation period.

7) Are these 144K Jews evangelists?

The Bible does not say it.
Millionare novel writers say it

8) Is there more than one way or method that one can be saved?

No. Salvation is through Jesus ONLY.

9) Are there different classes of the saved?

No. But count me among the haired saved
(as opposed to the bald saved).

A) Can the Jews be saved outside of Jesus?

No.

B) Is works necessary for salvation?

Yes, the works of Jesus are necessary.
No, the saved individual is saved by the works of Jesus,
not by their own works.

C) Will there be a mass period of evangelism during
the tribulation?

No, for gentiles.
Yes, for Jewish Israeli.

D) Is martyrdom a prerequisite for salvation
during the tribulation?

Yes, for gentiles.
No, for Jewish Israeli.

E) If the Holy Spirit is not here during the tribulation
then how can anyone be saved?

Unanswerable question based on a faulty premesis.
The Holy Spirit will be on earth during
the Tribulation period.

F) Can God protect His children on the earth from His wrath?

Yes.

10) Are those mentioned throughout the NT as elect
the Jews or the Church?

Yes.

11) What are the moral implications on pre-tribbers
if they are wrong and the Lord comes at the
end of the tribulation only once?

None. The whole idea of any eschatological teaching
should be to encourage holy living NOW.

12) Does my belief in a post-trib return of our Lord affect
or negate my "rapture" at the beginning of the tribulation?

No. Only your personal relation to the Savior: Messiah Jesus.

13) Do you believe that only spiritual Christians
will be "raptured" out at the beginning of the
tribulation, leaving non-spiritual ones here?

Nope. I'm an ALL or NONE pretribulation rapturist.

14) Do you believe that since the word "church"
is not found between Revelation 4 and 21 the church
is not on the earth?

Yes, the gentile church-age church is not found.
The Jewish Israeli chruch is found after the
mid=trib crises

15) Since the early church fathers (ECFs) did not
believe in a pre-trib "rapture" did that affect
their salvation?

If your premesis is true, it did not affect their
salvation.

16) Which is superior, the English translations,
or the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek?

The translations written in the language
that i understand: 20th century English.
The nKJV is the best, but NIV, NASB, NLT
contain the written word of God: the Holy Bible.

17) Do you believe the tribulation will be pre-mil,
post-mil, or a-mil?

pre-mil

18) Are the church-age saints (those today)
considered the Bride of Christ?

Yes.

19) Are the OT saints considered part of the Bride of Christ?

Yes.

1A) Are the trib-saints considered part of the Bride of Christ?

Yes.

1B) Are the Jews who are saved after the tribulation
saved outside of the blood of Christ?

No.

1C) Why are people saying today "Where is the
promise of His return?" (Fulfilling
the scripture: 2 Peter 3:4 And saying,
Where is the promise of his coming?
for since the fathers fell asleep,
all things continue as they were from
the beginning of the creation.)

They don't see God's mercy toward them.

1D) Can you, as a pre-tribulationist, afford to be wrong?

Yes. Trusting Jesus is a higher calling than
one's x-trib position. The same actions i call for
to be Rapture Ready in the church age are the actions needed for
a postribulation rapture.

1E) What are the implications on you, your family,
your friends, your church, should pre-trib be proven wrong?

They will probably be disapointed in me that i
didn't see that God had blessed them with the
gift of martyrdom.

1F) Can you quote a verse for us that says,
in the words of Christ, Peter, John, Paul,
whoever, "After that tribulation I will gather my church."?

No. But i have a concordance.
Want me to look it up?

20) You said you've been studying the Word for 50 years.
Did you arrive at pre-trib on your own,
or did you first discover it in the writings
of Lindsay/Pentecost/Kirban/Scofield/Ryrie/LaHaye/Walvoord/Larkin, et.al.?

None of the above.
The minister at the church where i was saved
taught a pretribulation rapture/resurrection.
I was 8-years-old. I believed what he said.
After that i read the Bible. Never did find
anthing in the Bible contradicting the Pretribulation
Rapture.

Nice questions, Brother /1998 name suppressed/.
And your answers are?
Note that i will probably not respond to your answers
unless i feel i will have something of encouragement
to add an ongoing discussion.