Matt 18 and Forgiveness Revoked

Steaver,

Did you even read John 15 and follow my suggestion.

I heard it once said on this forum, to a hammer everything is a nail.

Put your hammer down and read you bible!

Steaver said:

I don't recall Jesus saying that, not that it's not true or anything, but you will never truly understand it because you have blinders on to Jesus' teachings.
That is why you do not accept what Jesus Say's.

Why didn't you respond to John 15?

Thats why

 

Brother, you will not properly understand much of the meat of the Word unless you first take it upon yourself to understand, through much prayer to God, the milk. It begins with understanding born-again and salvation is "not of yourselves".

Here is the best teaching I have seen on John 15. I am sure it will probably run off you like water off a duck's back. You are stuck on your interpretations and I don't see any willingness on your part to see it any other way but your own. For the sake of those who want to learn, here it is...

15:1. The true vine. In the Old Testament, Israel is referred to as a vine. However, in this verse, we find the True or Real Vine is Christ Himself. The husbandman. The Father is the husbandman , or the One who owns the vineyard and who takes care of it.
2. He taketh away. Just as the husbandman disposes of branches that bear no fruit, so the Father judges those who bear no spiritual fruit. He purgeth it. The husbandman prunes the branches which bear fruit in order for them to bear more fruit . In like manner, God the Father cleanses Christians who are bearing fruit to bring them to bear more fruit. Fruit is the natural product of a living organism. Spiritual fruit is a spiritual product of a spiritual union (Gal 5:22-23).
3. Cleansing is produced through the Word of God.
4. Abide in me. In order to be a fruitful Christian, one must learn to depend on Christ and let the power and Spirit of Christ flow through him.
5. Christ now clearly states the implications of this story. He is the vine and we are the branches. Note the total dependence upon the Vine. Without that abiding relationship ye can do nothing . In verse 2 it refers to more fruit , and in verse 5 and 8 it refers to much fruit .
6. This does not refer to everlasting punishment in hell. Note that there are results of not abiding in Christ as a branch. The man himself is not the branch; the branch represents the fruits of his relationship with Christ. When the Christian fails to abide in Christ, he withers, dries up, and his fruits or works will be judged by fire (1 Cor 3:12-15).
7-8. Those who abide in Christ, and who permit His words to abide in them, have a blessed promise that Christ will perform whatever they ask. This is a blessed promise of the Father.
9-10. In the center of this unique abiding relationship is the love of God. Christ exhorts His disciples to continue in my love . It is interesting to note that this is the first fruit of the Spirit mentioned in Galatians 5:22. Christ remained in the Father's love because He obeyed Him. We remain in Christ's love because we obey His commandments (14:21, 23-24).
11. The second fruit of the Spirit is joy. The abiding relationship also gives us Christ's joy. Christ promises them fruit, answered prayer, love, and joy as the result of abiding in Him.
12. This is the second commandment found in chapter 15. The first is abide in me (vs. 7), and now Christ commands them to love one another . He defines the extent of that love in the phrase, as I have loved you .
13-14. Love is giving sacrificially for others. Love is not an emotional feeling, but it is the act of giving (3:16). To be a friend of Christ means to obey Him.
15. Because of their obedience, Christ could now call them friends . As His friends , they were told all the things that Christ had heard from the Father .
16. Although they were Christ's friends, this was by His choice, not their choice. Ordained you (Gr- tithemi , appointed you). Bring forth fruit. It is evident that the fruit refers to love and its results (15:8-14). Note the progression. To abide means to bear fruit; to bear fruit means to experience answered prayer (he may give it you) .
17. Again Christ returns to the theme of love. Loving one another is a command, not an option.

Edward G. Dobson, D.D.

God Bless!

 

"Take it upon myself", well what about "Not of myself"

According to you, belief is not of myself, understanding is not of myself, faith is not of myself. I don't have to do anythging.

Yeah baby! Cheap grace, I love it.

Look, get it in your head that everything that exist is not of yourself and ANY oppertunity we have is an act of Gods grace, but its through OUR (YOUR) faith it will be done for you.

Why don't you say it more clearly like this:

"This is all I WANT to see in John 15"

Because there are obvious things that you conveniently excluded Highlighting. Sad, but true. What are you afraid of, maybe that you are wrong?

Simple: is the Master in the Parable (Mat 18) God or Not? Yes or No?

Was the "forgiveness" that the Father gave revoked? Yes or No?

John 15

Were the branches apart of the vine (vine being jesus), Yes or No?

Were THOSE Branches able to be cut off, yes or No?

Who would do the Cutting?

I don't want to paint you in a corner, because what is happening is that you are now in danger of preaching differently than what Jesus taught.

YOU ARE DENYING THE FATHER WORD

Your ONLY way to defend your Teaching is to DENY any association of Jesus' message in the above referenced scriptures to believers, and that is sin. Because the lessons were for believers.

Next you are going to tell me that Jesus was talking to none believers when he threaten the following:

Rev 3:2 "Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes . They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are WORTHY. He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

It should be obvious that ONLY those who remain faithful (keep clean) will NEVER BE BLOTTED OUT by Jesus.

See right there! There is eternal security for those who stay faithful (Or clean).

 

These points agree with and improve upon what I already believe.

 

Man, I miss Steaver.

He hasn't touch this thread in a while... I guess he's too busy with his own thread.

 

Sorry brothers, I will make this thread my first objective when I return. I have overlooked it as of late.

God Bless!

 

I posted the comentary exactly the way the author had written it. Any Highlighting was by the publisher and it was only to show the reader what phrase or word was taken directly from the bible and was being addressed.

Yes, God the Father.

It does not say. I would say no. The servant was punished for not forgiving another servant.

Yes.

Yes.

God the Father.

You are running out of paint brother, I am going to get away!

So says you brother.

Did I say that they were not lessons for believers?

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works". (2Ti 3:16-17)

So you believe Jesus threatens His children into submission? Either you love Him or you don't. I will have to take some time to take another look into this passage if you like. I haven't read one yet that debunks OSAS.

So you are sinless (Or clean)?

Hope I covered everything on the table for you.

God Bless!

 

Steaver thanks for replying

But did you personally pick out Jesus' condition of relationship. Staying connected to Him?

The servants punishment obviously could not pay back the debt that he now owe that he didn't owe before. So, didn't Jesus say that the Father will treat us (saved people - remember he's talking to his disciples) the same way if we don't forgive others? Yes or No?

God DOES have the Power to revoke our sins based on the terms he set, correct? Yes or No.

Actually I got one more can left. Hold the ladder for me

Admonish would be my preferred wording, but sure. God's love shouldn't be questioned by us as if WE know the true definition of Love. We are not the Standard, He is!

Yep, look into the passage, but DON'T read into it. Read out of it. Don't rewrite it. Let it be!
When reading ask some question you would not normally ask. Try it. It could be helpful.

1. Who is he specifically addressing? (Don't say "unsaved" people. I trust that you will give the Son his rights to truth in His own Statements, even if you don't agree with Him.)
2. Why?
3. Can he blot out sins and would He?
4. How are people "worthy" of him?

So far we can conclude that the father and give and take back. Not that he will but that he can.

The above passage should help you to also see that He will if there is not repentance.

Yep!

 

The difference is understanding what part of the relationship Jesus is speaking of. It is not salvation, that is settled upon re-birth. The part that is in view is fruits. Ye can do nothing "good" outside of remaining in fellowship with your Savior Jesus Christ. Working on your own does not send a believer to hell. In fact ALL of your works could be burned up in that fire yet you yourself would be saved(1Cor 3:15). Let scripture interpret scripture.

It is only "obvious" to you because you want to believe that way. Let scripture interpret scripture. Last part answer to your question is "yes".

God can do anything He pleases, but scripture reveals that He chooses NOT to go against His Word. There are many things God WILL NOT do. Revoking salvation is one of them. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

What is truly helpful is going to God in prayer and asking Him to teach you as you use the tools He has provided like commentaries. And always let scripture interpret scripture rather than trying to extract a doctrine out of a single passage.

These questions are irrelevent unless you use scripture to answer them rather than trying to self-interpret the passage.

I'm not, that is why I need the blood of the Lamb each day.

God Bless!

 

So did you read Rev 3: and comment yet?

How do you read it?

 

Hi brother,

You are declaring that the man in the parable is a believer because he is called a servant. So let's break this down from the top.

vs 23. " Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants ".

Bob as well declares that the "kingdom of heaven" is speaking of believers. So here we have a king(God the Father) taking account of His servants(the saved).

vs 24. " And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents ".

One of God's servants(saved, believer) was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents(represents the servant/believers debt of sin he could not pay).

vs 25. " But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made ".

The servant(believer) was ordered to pay for his sins.

vs 26. " The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all ".

The servant(the saved man) begged for patience to repay a debt he could not pay.

vs 27. " Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt ".

The God of that servant(believer) had mercy and forgave him all his sin debt. This now made the servant(believer, saved man, child of God) a believer, saved man, child of God.

Why is the servant starting out in the parable getting saved again? Can people become born-again over and over? Please explain.

God Bless!

 

Yes Bob, you have said many times. Now does being called a servant mean that person is saved? You overlooked my reason for the post to Taz, I guess.

God Bless!