Is hell eternal?

I will presently steer clear of the issue of specific Biblical texts and address the issue of reconciling an eternal hell with notions of God's love. Presumably there will be no debate that the Scriptures describe our God as a specifically loving God.

I want to draw an important distinction between the mere label "love" and the actual content of the concept of love. The believer in eternal torment (ET) has a daunting task - giving an account of how eternal torment can be reconciled with the concept of love, when the latter is actually analyzed.

In my experience, all ETers agree that eternal torment appears to be non-loving. The usual counter-argument (at least what I have seen so far) is a kind of vague "God's version of love is is different from our version" or the equivalent "you're using worldy reasoning when you reject ET". I find such explanations to be rather obviously empty of real content. They have a kind of "slogan-y" and "debate-preempting" air about them - as if matter is settled by simple declaration.

While it is true that God's love is unfathomably richer than ours, this is not a warrant to accept propositions about His love that are repugnant to our sensibilities. We are not being asked (by the ETer) to accept propositions about divine love that are beyond the ken of our experience - we are rather being asked to asked to accept propositions that directly conflict with other things we know about divine love, both from the Scriptures and from human experience.

In short, even we fallen humans know in our bowels that inflicting endless torment is not love. I would say that this is "given to us as obvious". On a more rational level, however, it seems to me that God's various attributes (e.g. love, abhorrence of sin) have to work together. We may not know how they work together, but we can recognize solutions that do not work because they create contradictions. And eternal torment cannot be reconciled with love.

At the end of the day, I believe that the ETer is asking us to discard our "human" notions of love. But we are real people who live in a real world who need our God to give us a model for love that has actual content that we can make sense of. And I would claim that calling "eternal torment" loving does such damage to our concept of love that it effectively becomes useless to us.

 

God is a loving God, but God is a just God as well. If the Lord Jesus Christ affirmed in three verses of the New Testament that 'their worm dieth not' , He meant it.

'God is not a man that He should lie'

The Word of God tells us that those who reject His Son will be eternally dormented.

'Thy Word is Truth'

 

Sorry I did not see this thread in time to get this question posted on page one.

So here is the page one question posted on page two.

In "whose very PRESENCE" does all the torment and suffering take place? When your precious loved one must face the flames - WHO is right there and who is off having a party trying to ignore the screams of terror?

Lets see what the Bible says!

Then the punishment of the wicked becomes the focus of the message in chapter 14 for a few verses. They suffer the “wrath of God” . They suffer IN the presence of the Lamb!

This is the same things we see in Jude 14-15 in terms of “His Holy Ones” where they are called “Saints”.

NKJV: Jude 14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,

YLT: Jude 14And prophesy also to these did the seventh from Adam -- Enoch -- saying, `Lo, the Lord did come in His saintly myriads,

It is personal and individual and it is carried out vs 10 "in the presence of the holy ones and in the presence of the Lamb

And as we saw in vs 4 the saints are "the ones who Follow the LAMB WHEREVER He goes". (Same author, same book same chapter, same topic)


Now lets try someone that is not "in the Bible" - since folks here seem to like that.

Johnathan Edwards seem to concur with the fact that the saints will SEE the torment of the wicked in Rev 14:10 as they are IN the presence of Christ!

jonathanedwards.com

 

So assuming that we can all agree on the point that those who are WITH The LAMB AND His Angels are the wicked suffering the torments of fire and brimstone in Rev 14:10 "IN the PRESENCE of the Lamb and of His Holy Ones" --

Then "How long" will that torment continue? Will there ever be a time when the text is 'false' and the wicked continue to suffer but NOT "IN the presence of the Lamb AND of His Holy Ones" that were WITH HIM wherever He goes?

#1. Where in the Bible are we told "The wicked receive immortality"??

#2. Where in the Bible are we told "Man is now immortal"?

#3. Where in the Bible are we told "man HAS an immortal soul"?

Hint: The answer is the same for all three.

 

Summary -

Hell is in fact the Lake of fire and is composed of “fire and brimstone” – “eternal fire”.

Fiery Hell == Eternal Fire == Fire and Brimstone == Second Death (lake of fire)

1.
Eternal fire = Hell (fiery Hell). (Matt 18:8-9)
The final Judgment is one of “Eternal Fire” Jude 7 and Sodom shows that..

2.
The eternal fire sent to Sodom was in the form of “Fire and Brimstone: (Luke 17:2-30) and it will be JUST THE SAME in the judgment of Christ on the wicked.

3. The second Death is that Fire and Brimstone judgment sent upon the wicked after the millennium (Rev 21:8):


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Detail:

Eternal fire is what consumed Sodom and Gomorrah – they are exhibited as a perfect example of the “punishment of eternal fire”

Sodom and Gomorrah were Destroyed by “fire and brimstone”. So eternal fire is composed of fire and brimstone and the “destruction” it causes is exhibited by Sodom and Gomorrah.

The Lake of Fire is composed of “fire and brimstone” (The ultimate exhibit of the “punishment of eternal fire”.) This is the “second death” which is the punishment for sin “The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life”

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Hades in Rev 20 is the Grave – and is contrasted to “the sea” in this chapter. In Matt 10 and Luke 17 as shown above – “Hell” is in fact fiery Gehenna – the lake of Fire.

Here we notice again that it is the “sea” and the “Grave” that give up the dead – these are terms that would appear to apply to the earth. So also we see that the wicked are throne into the lake of fire – first mentioned in Rev 19 at the appearing of Christ prior to the 1000 years.

The term "hell" in Rev 20 is not the one that we see in Matt 10. In Rev 20 we have “Hades” which is literally the dead in “graves”. This makes perfect sense when we note that “The Sea and the grave” are giving up what is in the. WERE this really some kind of afterlife-hell then many of those who went down into the sea would ALSO be in Hell!

Here Jamieson,Fausset,Brown show that the term "Hades" is used to represent "grave" in Rev 20 not "Hell fire".

JFB show that there is no way to equivocate between "hell" (Hades - the grave) in Rev 20 and the fiery Ghenna of Matt 10.

In Luke 12:5 Jamieson, Fausset, Brown (JFB) also show that this same "Fiery hell" rather than "the grave - HADES" of Rev 20 is the focus -- Just as I did.

John and Jacob Abbott point out that in Rev 20 "Hades is the grave"

http://www.studylight.org/com/ain/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=020




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Death is ended.
"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (1 Cor. 15:26)


The Lake of FIRE IS the 2nd death Rev 20:18 – So it too ends.

 

The wicked are “consumed” they are “destroyted”.

The same concept of Kill and “Destroy” applied in the real world to real saints really being killed by real wicked people is applied to BOTH the body and the soul in hell fire in Christ’s warning .

In Matt 10 Christ goes from the idea of “Kill” to the even MORE complete idea of “Kill and destroy” in the sequence above. This progression is seen clearly as Luke relates the same teaching below.

Rev 20:9 “Fire DEVOURED the wicked”
Rev 11:18 “Destroy those who Destroy the earth”
2Thess 1:9 The wicked pay the “penalty of eternal Destruction”

Ps 21:8-10 “devoured” – “Destroyed”

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The wicked will “be no more”

The wicked are “consumed”

Ezek 28:18
Ps 104:35
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The “Full Penalty of sin is fully paid”


Sinners are “exterminated” not “perpetuated”

Is 13:9 – sinners are exterminated from the land.

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Examples of “Eternal”


Examples of “Forever”
Deut 15:17 – Slave forever
Philemon 1:15 – slave forever
(yet set free at death – Job 3:19)

Is 34:10 smoke goes up forever (Vs 11, 17 and later inhabited)


God takes no pleasure in the 2nd death

Ezek 18:23,32
Isaiah 57:15-16

 

This link explains what the Bible says about the "State of the Dead". It is written by a former SDA pastor, Mark Martin.

http://www.sdaoutreach.org/dead.cfm#I

 

That which ceases to burn eventually ceases to smoke.

If man's soul does not burn forever, then God's Word lies when it says,

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Smoke will not rise forever from a fire that in no longer there. It eventually disappears.

God's Word plainly says the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever.

That which is completely annihilated no longer exists, butr God's Word plainly says they have no rest day or night.

To reject Christ, one chooses that awful place of eternal torment.

 

&lt;snipped&gt;

Accidental double post

 

BTW - I am told that some people might be fearful of finding Jamieson,Fausset,Brown at "studylight" since an Adventist Christian might be connected to that site -- here is another place to find JFB --

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/JamiesonFaussetBrown/

 

Let's take a brief view of Biblical history:

*** ALL living, breathing human beings on earth, but 8, were destroyed in the flood.

*** All of the inhabitants of cities were killed by order of God, including children and women [Deut 13]

*** Because of David's disobedience, God sent a plague to kill 70,000 men [1 Chron 21]

*** Ananais and Sapphira were instantly killed when they lied.

*** Job's whole family was wiped out to prove a point, by the Hand of God [Job 1:11,21 & 2:5]

*** Korah's whole family was destroyed because of his sin - sons, daughters and wives


the list is a lot longer. God is also the Perfect Righteous Judge. He is Eternal, Infinite, Wise - we are but a breath, who are we to say what is "love" in God's Mind?

Rom 9:18 So, then, to whom He desires, He shows mercy. And to whom He desires, He hardens.
19 You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?
20 Yes, rather, O man, who are you answering against God? Shall the thing formed say to the One forming it, Why did You make me like this? Isa. 29:16
21 Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, out of the one lump to make one vessel to honor, and one to dishonor? Jer. 18:6
22 But if God, desiring to demonstrate His wrath, and to make His power known, endured in much long-suffering vessels of wrath having been fitted out for destruction, . . ."

 

Hint when you are trying to make something up by inference - see where else the phrase "Smoke ascends up forever" is used in the Bible. See if your inference works.

Isaiah comes to mind.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Psalms 74:1 &lt;&lt;Maschil of Asaph.&gt;&gt; O God, why hast thou cast [us] off for ever? [why] doth thine anger smoke against the sheep of thy pasture?

Isaiah 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Isaiah 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

 

I like Isaiah 34 personnally it is such a complete picture.

Who/what lives in that land according to the verse?

 

Amen, Boanerges!

 

Whoda thunk I'd be agreeing with Boanerges, but here I am, agreeing with Boanerges.