Is hell eternal?

[Andre]

I will presently steer clear of the issue of specific Biblical texts and address the issue of reconciling an eternal hell with notions of God's love. Presumably there will be no debate that the Scriptures describe our God as a specifically loving God.

I want to draw an important distinction between the mere label "love" and the actual content of the concept of love. The believer in eternal torment (ET) has a daunting task - giving an account of how eternal torment can be reconciled with the concept of love, when the latter is actually analyzed.

In my experience, all ETers agree that eternal torment appears to be non-loving. The usual counter-argument (at least what I have seen so far) is a kind of vague "God's version of love is is different from our version" or the equivalent "you're using worldy reasoning when you reject ET". I find such explanations to be rather obviously empty of real content. They have a kind of "slogan-y" and "debate-preempting" air about them - as if matter is settled by simple declaration.

While it is true that God's love is unfathomably richer than ours, this is not a warrant to accept propositions about His love that are repugnant to our sensibilities. We are not being asked (by the ETer) to accept propositions about divine love that are beyond the ken of our experience - we are rather being asked to asked to accept propositions that directly conflict with other things we know about divine love, both from the Scriptures and from human experience.

In short, even we fallen humans know in our bowels that inflicting endless torment is not love. I would say that this is "given to us as obvious". On a more rational level, however, it seems to me that God's various attributes (e.g. love, abhorrence of sin) have to work together. We may not know how they work together, but we can recognize solutions that do not work because they create contradictions. And eternal torment cannot be reconciled with love.

At the end of the day, I believe that the ETer is asking us to discard our "human" notions of love. But we are real people who live in a real world who need our God to give us a model for love that has actual content that we can make sense of. And I would claim that calling "eternal torment" loving does such damage to our concept of love that it effectively becomes useless to us.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

God is a loving God, but God is a just God as well. If the Lord Jesus Christ affirmed in three verses of the New Testament that 'their worm dieth not' , He meant it.

'God is not a man that He should lie'

The Word of God tells us that those who reject His Son will be eternally dormented.

'Thy Word is Truth'

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Boanerges:
Or is it just for a time as the Adventist, JW's, and other groups teach?

Sorry I did not see this thread in time to get this question posted on page one.

So here is the page one question posted on page two.

In "whose very PRESENCE" does all the torment and suffering take place? When your precious loved one must face the flames - WHO is right there and who is off having a party trying to ignore the screams of terror?

Lets see what the Bible says!

Then the punishment of the wicked becomes the focus of the message in chapter 14 for a few verses. They suffer the “wrath of God” . They suffer IN the presence of the Lamb!

Rev 14
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

This is the same things we see in Jude 14-15 in terms of “His Holy Ones” where they are called “Saints”.

Jude 1 14It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,

Jude 1:14
It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,
Proefhteusen de kai toutoiv ebdomov apo Adam Enwx legwn, (5723) Idou (5628) hlqen (5627) kuriov en agiaiv muriasin autou,
http://www.searchgodsword.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Jude&section=0&it=nas&oq=Luke%25209%3A26&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=lu&ng=9&ncc=9

Hagios: NAS (232) - Holy, 92; Holy of Holies, 1; holy, 62; holy one, 5; holy ones, 1; holy place, 7; most holy, 1; saint, 1; saints, 59; saints', 1; sanctuary, 2;

NKJV: Jude 14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,

YLT: Jude 14And prophesy also to these did the seventh from Adam -- Enoch -- saying, `Lo, the Lord did come in His saintly myriads,

NASB Rev 14:10
14:10
he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
kai autov pietai (5695) ek tou oinou tou qumou tou qeou tou kekerasmenou (5772) akratou en tw| pothriw| thv orghv autou, kai basanisqhsetai (5701) en puri kai qeiw| enwpion aggelwn agiwn kai enwpion tou arniou.
http://www.searchgodsword.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Rev+14&section=0&it=nas&oq=Jude&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1
Hagios: NAS (232) - Holy, 92; Holy of Holies, 1; holy, 62; holy one, 5; holy ones, 1; holy place, 7; most holy, 1; saint, 1; saints, 59; saints', 1; sanctuary, 2

It is personal and individual and it is carried out vs 10 "in the presence of the holy ones and in the presence of the Lamb

And as we saw in vs 4 the saints are "the ones who Follow the LAMB WHEREVER He goes". (Same author, same book same chapter, same topic)


Now lets try someone that is not "in the Bible" - since folks here seem to like that.

Johnathan Edwards seem to concur with the fact that the saints will SEE the torment of the wicked in Rev 14:10 as they are IN the presence of Christ!

jonathanedwards.com

THE END OF THE WICKED CONTEMPLATED BY THE RIGHTEOUS:
or
THE TORMENTS OF THE WICKED IN HELL, NCCASION OF GRIEF TO THE SAINTS IN HEAVEN.

By Jonathan Edwards

[REVELATION 18:20
Rejoice over her thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
________________________________________
Introduction
IN this chapter we have a very particular account of the fall of Babylon, or the antichristian church, and of the vengeance of God executed upon her. Here it is proclaimed that Babylon the great is fallen, …

SECTION 1.

(When the saints in glory shall see the wrath of God executed on ungodly men, it will be no occasion of grief to them, but of rejoicing.)
It is not only the sight of God's wrath executed on those wicked men who are of the antichristian church, which will be occasion of rejoicing to the saints in glory; but also the sight of the destruction of all God's enemies: whether they have been the followers of antichrist or not, that alters not the case, if they have been the enemies of God, and of Jesus Christ. All wicked men will at last be destroyed together, as being united in the same cause and interest, as being all of Satan's army. They will all stand together at the day of judgment, as being all of the same company..

And if we understand the text to have respect only to a temporal execution of God's wrath on his enemies, that will not alter the case. The thing they are called upon to rejoice at, is the execution of God's wrath upon his and their enemies. And if it be matter of rejoicing to them to see justice executed in part upon them, or to see the beginning of the execution of it in this world; for the same reason will they rejoice with greater joy, in beholding it fully executed. For the thing here mentioned as the foundation of their joy, is the execution of just vengeance: Rejoice, for God hath avenged you on her.
Prop. I. The glorified saints will see the wrath of God executed upon ungodly men. This the Scriptures plainly teach us, that the righteous and the wicked in the other world see each other's state. Thus the rich man in hell, and Lazarus and Abraham in heaven, are represented as seeing each other's opposite states, in the 16th chap. of Luke. The wicked in their misery will see the saints in the kingdom of heaven. Luke 13:28, 29, "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out."

So the saints in glory will see the misery of the wicked under the wrath of God. Isa. 64:24, "And they shall go forth and look on the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." And Rev. 14:. 9, 10, "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture, into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone, in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb."

 

[BobRyan]

So assuming that we can all agree on the point that those who are WITH The LAMB AND His Angels are the wicked suffering the torments of fire and brimstone in Rev 14:10 "IN the PRESENCE of the Lamb and of His Holy Ones" --

Then "How long" will that torment continue? Will there ever be a time when the text is 'false' and the wicked continue to suffer but NOT "IN the presence of the Lamb AND of His Holy Ones" that were WITH HIM wherever He goes?

#1. Where in the Bible are we told "The wicked receive immortality"??

#2. Where in the Bible are we told "Man is now immortal"?

#3. Where in the Bible are we told "man HAS an immortal soul"?

Hint: The answer is the same for all three.

 

[BobRyan]

Summary -

Hell is in fact the Lake of fire and is composed of “fire and brimstone” – “eternal fire”.

Fiery Hell == Eternal Fire == Fire and Brimstone == Second Death (lake of fire)

1.
Eternal fire = Hell (fiery Hell). (Matt 18:8-9)
The final Judgment is one of “Eternal Fire” Jude 7 and Sodom shows that..

2.
The eternal fire sent to Sodom was in the form of “Fire and Brimstone: (Luke 17:2-30) and it will be JUST THE SAME in the judgment of Christ on the wicked.

3. The second Death is that Fire and Brimstone judgment sent upon the wicked after the millennium (Rev 21:8):


====================================
Detail:

Fiery Hell – is in fact “eternal fire”
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Matt 18:8-9
8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.
9 If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.

Eternal fire is what consumed Sodom and Gomorrah – they are exhibited as a perfect example of the “punishment of eternal fire”

Jude 7
6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrah were Destroyed by “fire and brimstone”. So eternal fire is composed of fire and brimstone and the “destruction” it causes is exhibited by Sodom and Gomorrah.

Luke 17:29-30
29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 "It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.

The Lake of Fire is composed of “fire and brimstone” (The ultimate exhibit of the “punishment of eternal fire”.) This is the “second death” which is the punishment for sin “The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life”

Rev 21:
8 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

</font>[/QUOTE]

 

[BobRyan]

Hades in Rev 20 is the Grave – and is contrasted to “the sea” in this chapter. In Matt 10 and Luke 17 as shown above – “Hell” is in fact fiery Gehenna – the lake of Fire.

Rev 20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Here we notice again that it is the “sea” and the “Grave” that give up the dead – these are terms that would appear to apply to the earth. So also we see that the wicked are throne into the lake of fire – first mentioned in Rev 19 at the appearing of Christ prior to the 1000 years.

The term "hell" in Rev 20 is not the one that we see in Matt 10. In Rev 20 we have “Hades” which is literally the dead in “graves”. This makes perfect sense when we note that “The Sea and the grave” are giving up what is in the. WERE this really some kind of afterlife-hell then many of those who went down into the sea would ALSO be in Hell!

Here Jamieson,Fausset,Brown show that the term "Hades" is used to represent "grave" in Rev 20 not "Hell fire".

13. death and hell--Greek, "Hades." The essential identity of the dying and risen body is hereby shown; for the sea and grave give up their dead. The body that sinned or served God shall, in righteous retribution, be the body also that shall suffer or be rewarded. The "sea" may have a symbolical [CLUVER from AUGUSTINE], besides the literal meaning, as, in Re 8:8; 12:12; 13:1; 18:17, 19; so "death" and "hell" are personifications (compare Re 21:1). But the literal sense need hardly be departed from: all the different regions wherein the bodies and souls of men had been, gave them up.

http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=020

JFB show that there is no way to equivocate between "hell" (Hades - the grave) in Rev 20 and the fiery Ghenna of Matt 10.

Jamieson, Fausset, Brown on Matt 10
28. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul--In Lu 12:4, "and after that have no more that they can do."
but rather fear him--In Luke (Lu 12:5) this is peculiarly solemn, "I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear," even Him
which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell--A decisive proof this that there is a hell for the body as well as the soul in the eternal world; in other words, that the torment that awaits the lost will have elements of suffering adapted to the material as well as the spiritual part of our nature, both of which, we are assured, will exist for ever. In the corresponding warning contained in Luke (Lu 12:4), Jesus calls His disciples "My friends," as if He had felt that such sufferings constituted a bond of peculiar tenderness between Him and them.

http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=010

In Luke 12:5 Jamieson, Fausset, Brown (JFB) also show that this same "Fiery hell" rather than "the grave - HADES" of Rev 20 is the focus -- Just as I did.

JFB
5. Fear Him . . . Fear Him--how striking the repetition here! Only the one fear would effectually expel the other.
after he hath killed, &c.--Learn here--(1) To play false with one's convictions to save one's life, may fail of its end after all, for God can inflict a violent death in some other and equally formidable way. (2) There is a hell, it seems, for the body as well as the soul; consequently, sufferings adapted to the one as well as the other. (3) Fear of hell is a divinely authorized and needed motive of action even to Christ's "friends." (4) As Christ's meekness and gentleness were not compromised by such harsh notes as these, so those servants of Christ lack their Master's spirit who soften down all such language to please ears "polite." (See on Mr 9:43-48).

http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=lu&chapter=012

John and Jacob Abbott point out that in Rev 20 "Hades is the grave"

http://www.studylight.org/com/ain/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=020




========================================================


Death is ended.
"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (1 Cor. 15:26)


The Lake of FIRE IS the 2nd death Rev 20:18 – So it too ends.

 

[BobRyan]

The wicked are “consumed” they are “destroyted”.

The same concept of Kill and “Destroy” applied in the real world to real saints really being killed by real wicked people is applied to BOTH the body and the soul in hell fire in Christ’s warning .

Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

In Matt 10 Christ goes from the idea of “Kill” to the even MORE complete idea of “Kill and destroy” in the sequence above. This progression is seen clearly as Luke relates the same teaching below.

Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

Rev 20:9 “Fire DEVOURED the wicked”
Rev 11:18 “Destroy those who Destroy the earth”
2Thess 1:9 The wicked pay the “penalty of eternal Destruction”

Ps 21:8-10 “devoured” – “Destroyed”

“You will make them a fiery oven in the time of your anger; The Lord will swallow them up in His wrath, fire will devour them. Their offspring you will Destroy from the earth..”

[/quote]

=======================================================

The wicked will “be no more”

Ezek 28:13-19 – Satan will “be no more” Ashes (2Peter 2:6 Jude 7)

Mal 4:1,3 The wicked will be set ablaze – turned to ashes, nothing left

Ps 59:13 The wicked are “destroyed” they will “be no more”
“Destroy them in wrath – Destroy them that they may be No More”

Ps 104:35 sinners will be consumed – they will “be no more”
Ps 1:6 – not only the wicked – but “wickedness perishes”
Ps 10:15 God seeks out wickedness “until He finds none”

Prov 24:19-20 The wicked have a bad future – and THEN they have “no future”

The wicked are “consumed”

Rev 20:9
Heb 10:27
2Peter 3:7-12
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!

Ezek 28:18
Ps 104:35
</font>[/QUOTE]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The “Full Penalty of sin is fully paid”


Sinners are “exterminated” not “perpetuated”

Is 13:9 – sinners are exterminated from the land.

--------------------------------------------------
Examples of “Eternal”


Examples of “Forever”
Deut 15:17 – Slave forever
Philemon 1:15 – slave forever
(yet set free at death – Job 3:19)

Is 34:10 smoke goes up forever (Vs 11, 17 and later inhabited)


God takes no pleasure in the 2nd death

Ezek 18:23,32
Isaiah 57:15-16

 

[Linda64]

This link explains what the Bible says about the "State of the Dead". It is written by a former SDA pastor, Mark Martin.

http://www.sdaoutreach.org/dead.cfm#I

 

[standingfirminChrist]

That which ceases to burn eventually ceases to smoke.

If man's soul does not burn forever, then God's Word lies when it says,

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Smoke will not rise forever from a fire that in no longer there. It eventually disappears.

God's Word plainly says the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever.

That which is completely annihilated no longer exists, butr God's Word plainly says they have no rest day or night.

To reject Christ, one chooses that awful place of eternal torment.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

&lt;snipped&gt;

Accidental double post

 

[BobRyan]

BTW - I am told that some people might be fearful of finding Jamieson,Fausset,Brown at "studylight" since an Adventist Christian might be connected to that site -- here is another place to find JFB --

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/JamiesonFaussetBrown/

 

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by Andre:
I will presently steer clear of the issue of specific Biblical texts and address the issue of reconciling an eternal hell with notions of God's love. Presumably there will be no debate that the Scriptures describe our God as a specifically loving God.


. . . At the end of the day, I believe that the ETer is asking us to discard our "human" notions of love. But we are real people who live in a real world who need our God to give us a model for love that has actual content that we can make sense of. And I would claim that calling "eternal torment" loving does such damage to our concept of love that it effectively becomes useless to us.

Let's take a brief view of Biblical history:

*** ALL living, breathing human beings on earth, but 8, were destroyed in the flood.

*** All of the inhabitants of cities were killed by order of God, including children and women [Deut 13]

*** Because of David's disobedience, God sent a plague to kill 70,000 men [1 Chron 21]

*** Ananais and Sapphira were instantly killed when they lied.

*** Job's whole family was wiped out to prove a point, by the Hand of God [Job 1:11,21 & 2:5]

*** Korah's whole family was destroyed because of his sin - sons, daughters and wives


the list is a lot longer. God is also the Perfect Righteous Judge. He is Eternal, Infinite, Wise - we are but a breath, who are we to say what is "love" in God's Mind?

Rom 9:18 So, then, to whom He desires, He shows mercy. And to whom He desires, He hardens.
19 You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?
20 Yes, rather, O man, who are you answering against God? Shall the thing formed say to the One forming it, Why did You make me like this? Isa. 29:16
21 Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, out of the one lump to make one vessel to honor, and one to dishonor? Jer. 18:6
22 But if God, desiring to demonstrate His wrath, and to make His power known, endured in much long-suffering vessels of wrath having been fitted out for destruction, . . ."

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
That which ceases to burn eventually ceases to smoke.

If man's soul does not burn forever, then God's Word lies when it says,

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:

Hint when you are trying to make something up by inference - see where else the phrase "Smoke ascends up forever" is used in the Bible. See if your inference works.

Isaiah comes to mind.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Psalms 74:1 &lt;&lt;Maschil of Asaph.&gt;&gt; O God, why hast thou cast [us] off for ever? [why] doth thine anger smoke against the sheep of thy pasture?

Isaiah 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Isaiah 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

 

[BobRyan]

I like Isaiah 34 personnally it is such a complete picture.

Isaiah 34
1 Draw near, O nations, to hear; and listen, O peoples! Let the earth and all it contains hear, and the world and all that springs from it.
2 For the LORD'S indignation is against all the nations, And His wrath against all their armies; He has utterly destroyed them, He has given them over to slaughter.
3 So their slain will be thrown out, And their corpses will give off their stench, And the mountains will be drenched with their blood.
4 And all the host of heaven will wear away, And the sky will be rolled up like a scroll; All their hosts will also wither away As a leaf withers from the vine, Or as one withers from the fig tree.

5 For My sword is satiated in heaven, Behold it shall descend for judgment upon Edom And upon the people whom I have devoted to destruction.
6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, It is sated with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats, With the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 Wild oxen will also fall with them And young bulls with strong ones; Thus their land will be soaked with blood, And their dust become greasy with fat.

8 For the LORD has a day of vengeance, A year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch, And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land will become burning pitch.

10 It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever.

11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it, And owl and raven will dwell in it; And He will stretch over it the line of desolation And the plumb line of emptiness.

Who/what lives in that land according to the verse?

 

[Boanerges]

so Bob, then owlam is not eternal?

 

[Boanerges]

Revelations 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

So if all former things are passed away, and the Saints will not have memory of those former things, to abhor those who have gone to hell, then who will? It must be self abhorrence, therefore there can not be any annihilation. Plain and simple, hell is eternal.(owlam)

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Amen, Boanerges!

 

[Johnv]

Whoda thunk I'd be agreeing with Boanerges, but here I am, agreeing with Boanerges.

 

[Boanerges]

Originally posted by Johnv:
Whoda thunk I'd be agreeing with Boanerges, but here I am, agreeing with Boanerges.

Thats why I love ya Johnny. You are just so flexible!