Is hell eternal?

[Andre]

Originally posted by eloidalmanutha:

*** ALL living, breathing human beings on earth, but 8, were destroyed in the flood.

*** All of the inhabitants of cities were killed by order of God, including children and women [Deut 13]

*** Because of David's disobedience, God sent a plague to kill 70,000 men [1 Chron 21]

*** Ananais and Sapphira were instantly killed when they lied.

*** Job's whole family was wiped out to prove a point, by the Hand of God [Job 1:11,21 & 2:5]

*** Korah's whole family was destroyed because of his sin - sons, daughters and wives


the list is a lot longer. God is also the Perfect Righteous Judge. He is Eternal, Infinite, Wise - we are but a breath, who are we to say what is "love" in God's Mind?

Rom 9:18 So, then, to whom He desires, He shows mercy. And to whom He desires, He hardens.
19 You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?
20 Yes, rather, O man, who are you answering against God? Shall the thing formed say to the One forming it, Why did You make me like this? Isa. 29:16
21 Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, out of the one lump to make one vessel to honor, and one to dishonor? Jer. 18:6
22 But if God, desiring to demonstrate His wrath, and to make His power known, endured in much long-suffering vessels of wrath having been fitted out for destruction, . . ."

First of all, there is a huge difference between destruction (which is what appears to be happening in the above texts), and eternal torment. Second, this post seems to simply say what I think most ETers seem to say - it simply asserts we are not in a position to "judge" God's definiton of love. Sure, there is the familiar Romans quote about the potter. I could post Biblical text that would be hard to reconcile with eternal torment. Argument by "verse" has some value, but I think we can do better.

I think we need to take the concept of love seriously - it cannot be a meaningless placeholder into which we insert all sorts of obviously contradictory notions. It is simply too "easy" to say that we cannot understand God's love. Sure, we may not be able to grasp its entire scope, but that which we can grasp has to be sensible and usable by us. And this is where the ET position runs into trouble. If we are to actually deploy the concept of God's love in the world it has to strike a chord of recognition in us - we need to respond to this revelation with an "Aha!" that effectively says "this is right, this is the heart of God". The idea of eternal torment produces the opposite response - one of bewilderment and non-sensibility. Is this the hallmark of God's real revelation to us?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

God's own Son speaks of eternal torment, we cannot say that it does not exist, nor can we say it will not happen.

 

[Boanerges]

Let's examine the many names in the original languages that are translated as hell:

Sheol
Hades
Gehenna
Tartaroo

We also have allusions to hell with:

Gai Hinnom
Tophet

And then there is the lake of fire.

 

[BobRyan]

Been there

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3603/2.html#000025

Done that

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3603/2.html#000024

 

[Boanerges]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Been there

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3603/2.html#000025

Done that

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3603/2.html#000024

But what about owlam Bob?

 

[Kamoroso]

The following definitions are from the Greek-English Lexicon.

ETERNAL-aionios-- lasting for an age. ( Age- as a period of individual existence. 1. That part of
the duration of a being or a thing which is between its beginning and any given time. ), perpetual, eternal, holding an office or title for life,perpetual.

I can no longer read the last word of three of the lines of the next definition, so I guess I will just have to leave them out.

EVER, as in forever-aion--period of existence, I. lifetime, life____ II. long space of time, an age, perpetual, all ones life long, for ever,_____ eternity, 2. space of time clearly defined and marked out, epoch,____this present world.

As is obvious from the above definitions, the words eternal, and forever, in the new testament, do not necessarily always mean what our English words denote. This means that it is possible, that when speaking of the punishment of the wicked, the words eternal, and forever, may really mean something more like, until the duration of, or, all their life long. Considering this, and the fact that
there are many scriptures that conclusively state that sin and sinners will come to an end, I am convicted that these scriptures are correct. The only other option is to believe that the scriptures contradict themselves.

Bye for now. Your brother in Christ Keith.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

owlam is pretty much etched in stone.... eternal

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Brotherr Keith,

The word 'eternal' in the New testament is mentioned 45 times. The greek word for eternal 'aionios', is found 69 times total. here are all the verses where it is found.

Mt 18:8; 19:16,29; 25:41,46; Mr 3:29; 10:17,30; Lu 10:25; 16:9; 18:18,30; Joh 3:15-16,36; 4:14,36; 5:24,39; 6:27,40,47,54,68; 10:28; 12:25,50; 17:2-3; Ac 13:46,48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22-23; 16:25-26; 2Co 4:17-18; 5:1; Ga 6:8; 2Th 1:9; 2:16; 1Ti 1:16; 6:12,16,19; 2Ti 1:9; 2:10; Tit 1:2; 3:7; Phm 1:15; Heb 5:9; 6:2; 9:12,14-15; 13:20; 1Pe 5:10; 2Pe 1:11; 1Jo 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11,13,20; Jude 1:7,21; Re 14:6

in all of these references aionios means

aiwnioV aionios ahee-o'-nee-os

from 165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

In Ro 1:20; the greek word for eternal is 'aidios' meaning

from 104; everduring (forward and backward, or forward only):--eternal, everlasting.

In Eph 3:11 & 1 Timothy 1:17 eternal is the greek word 'aion' meaning

aiwn aion ahee-ohn'

from the same as 104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare 5550.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Read it for yourself. These were Jesus words:

'Then shall He say also to them on the left hand, Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his angels.'

[Matthew 25:41]

 

[standingfirminChrist]

That word 'everlasting in Matthew 25:41 is the word 'aionios'

aiwnioV aionios ahee-o'-nee-os

from 165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

See Greek 165

Perpetual... hmmmm, does not sound like it ends.

And why should it be eternal, or for ever, if the sinners and the devil are annhilated when they get thrown in. Seems to me if there is no more devil or sinners because they burned up, then God would put the fire out.

But.... the Word of God says it is everlasting.

 

[Ray Berrian]

When I was a pre-teen I heard an evangelist try to describe eternity. He said if a bird were to fly one speck of sand from earth to a distant planet and fly back to get a second grain of sand--until he had taken the entire earth to this distant planet, this would be merely the beginning of eternity. I never forgot that.

As to our arrival in Heaven this is a wonderful thing; but to be placed in Hell for eternity is unthinkable!

This is why we need to witness to lost people around us.

Berrian, Th.D.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I agree, Ray. People are lost and on their way to hell. How many that are able to get out and witness actually do?

 

[Ray Berrian]

standingfirminChrist,

I am not sure if you can get out of your home or not. It seems I recall you had problems with your eyes. You have been a witness to all on this board and have often given good instruction in the things of the Lord. Your insights are appreciated and have affected each of our lives.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Ray Berrian,

Thank you for the encouraging words, my Brother. I try to be the witness that God has called all who profess faith in His Son to be.

Many claim to be of Him, but refuse to walk in His light.

And may I say I have enjoyed many of your posts as well. I do not claim to know everything, and I do learn from many on the BB.

 

[Boanerges]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
standingfirminChrist,

I am not sure if you can get out of your home or not. It seems I recall you had problems with your eyes. You have been a witness to all on this board and have often given good instruction in the things of the Lord. Your insights are appreciated and have affected each of our lives.

I echo the above statement loudly. Job well done SFIC!

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Thanks guys.

I do not get out too much, but Linda is able to drive me to church on Sunday mornings and we have a ride on Sunday Evenings and Wednesday Evenings.

God is so good to me. His mercies are renewed every morning. I have been blessed with many wonderful years in Christ and will ever tell of His mercy and love as long as He lends me the breath to do so.

I can't do much anymore, but I can testify to His mighty works in my life and I can shout from the pulpit and on BB that Jesus Christ indeed is Lord and lives forevermore!

Be blessed, my friends and Brethren in the Body.

Ron

 

[Andre]

Originally posted by Kamoroso:
....the words eternal, and forever, in the new testament, do not necessarily always mean what our English words denote. This means that it is possible, that when speaking of the punishment of the wicked, the words eternal, and forever, may really mean something more like, until the duration of, or, all their life long. Considering this, and the fact that there are many scriptures that conclusively state that sin and sinners will come to an end, I am convicted that these scriptures are correct. The only other option is to believe that the scriptures contradict themselves.

I am sympathetic to this position.

Some of the debate has taken the form of trying to determine the connotation of the original greek words that map to english words such as "eternal". I think that this approach has a weakness - it effectively presumes a highly literalistic intent on the part of the original author.

Suppose a lovestruck person writes to their partner "I will love you forever". Suppose that 5000 years from now, such a letter is unearthed and scholars (that do not know English) and they try to determine what "forever" means. If they simply "look it up", they will conclude that the writer expects to live forever. We, living in 21st century western culture, know that this was never the original intent.

So I think that arguments that simply appeal to "definitions of words" are vulnerable to the criticism that they fail to account for non-literal (yet perfectly legitimate) uses of such words by the original author.

 

[Ray Berrian]

All of the Lord's Divine verities are to be received just as they stand. Scripture means just what it says or otherwise, we can begin to make up our own versions as to word meanings.

I will know my wife in Heaven and we will in a very true sense 'love each other forever,' though without all of the physical and human interactions that we enjoy here. Forever means forever in the Bible and in the English language unless you are a liberal church person who makes up interpretation as one goes along reading. In this case, Scriptural meaning can have too many nuances.

If we have a faith, trust in Jesus in a very real sense we will be living forever with Christ [John 3:16].

If forever in Heaven or Hell does not mean eternal, then how many years does a liberal believe Heaven and Hell is? How many years do Christians get in Heaven and then where do we get sent. You see the folly of such a view.

Berrian, Th.D.

 

[Andre]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
All of the Lord's Divine verities are to be received just as they stand. Scripture means just what it says or otherwise, we can begin to make up our own versions as to word meanings.

I am frankly mystified at the rather obvious unworkabilty of such a position. First, it leaves unspecified how we determine "what it says". I am going to assume that the writer would propose a purely literalistic, "technical" reading of any scriptural text - please correct me if I am wrong.

Second, the "it means what it says" kind of approach would remove the sense of the following expressions, all of which do have real meaning and content, even if they are not precisely correct from a technical point of view:

1. I hear the voice of the dead of the Holocaust, crying for justice (how can the dead speak?)

2. I left my heart in San Fransisco (need I state the obvious?)

3. I feel the January cold in my bones (I do not really experience chilled bones).

etc. etc.

Some may feel that this analogy is bad. How is it bad? If I can use exaggeration and metaphor in daily life, thereby effectively abusing the strict meanings of words, why could the authors of scripture not do likewise?

Does admitting the possibilty of "poetic" or "stretching" of the meaning of words make biblical interpretation more challenging?

Indeed it does. But such is the challenge we face.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Andre,

There is no where in the Word of God that tells us to 'stretch' or use 'poetic license.'

You ignored my question as I expected you would do.

If Heaven is not eternal, then were do does the Lord send us after a couple of million years? Will be become bored with this place and His wonderful Presence? Is there, in your mind, an advanced spiritual place beyond Heaven?