Being Slain in the Spirit? Part Two

Yes, Indeed you did!
And many try to pull Scripture out of context to prove their point.

The Mormons:
"He that findeth a wife findeth a good thing."
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his rigteousness and all these things shall be added unto you."
= proof for polygamy

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

I posted it once, but for you Ray, I will post it again:

2 Kings-13-21 And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.

It always amazed me that when the bones of Elisha were touched, the dead man came back to life! Awesome Power!!!

Happy reading.

Tam

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Yes it was awesome power.
It was awesome power when Christ caused Lazarus to rise from the dead.
It was awesome power when Christ rose from the dead.
Who caused the man who touched the dead bones of Elisha to be revived? Elisha? Elisha's dead bones? I think not!!!!!
It was the power of Christ (God)!
The Benny Hinn type power is not of God at all. If anything it is more akin to sorcery than to the power of God. The reason I can say that is to look at the theology of Benny Hinn. He is not a Christian. By their fruits ye shall know them.
DHK

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

Bible Boy said:Therefore, unless you can reciprocate in the same fashion I expect you to not throw out such an empty accusation, with no proof offered, and run away. Throwing out such an empty accusation is a cheap and unworthy debate tactic and it should not be resorted to by a professing Christian

Well, I and others have posted how and why it happens, and the rest of you pay no attention. So I'm not going to keep posting it just to have it ignored!

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Hello Tam,

Evidently I did not make myself clear, or you just misunderstood what I was saying. I am not asking for you to post more Scripture that you claim supports SITS. However, since you have been bold enough to charge that I have engaged in eisegesis throughout this thread, I am asking you to:

1. Quote from my posts when you believe I have eisegeted the text of Scripture.

2. Fully explain how what I said abuses the text of Scripture by engaging in eisegesis. FYI eisegesis means that someone has added outside words or meanings, which are clearly not present in the actual text, in order to force a particular interpretation upon the said text so that they can maintain their presupposition (in this case regarding a doctrinal position).

3. Then provide the proper exegesis and interpretation of that same text using sound hermeneutical principles. FYI exegesis means that you allow the text, in its full context, to speak for itself without adding outside words or meaning which would force a different meaning upon said text. Basically, solid exegesis is derived by applying a literal, historical, grammatical reading and understanding to the text in question.

If you are unable to do these three things which would verify your charge that I have engaged in eisegesis, then I expect you to withdraw the groundless charge and apologize for making a false charge against a fellow Christian.

Originally posted by tamborine lady:
Yes, how about answering Music. Show us scripture that says it can't happen!!

waiting and waiting .....etc-----

Peace,

Tam

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Since the Bible does not even hint that SITS indeed does happen you are asking me to do the impossible. However, before you start to think that you have driven me into the fallacy of arguing from silence please consider the following:

1. Is it your position that we can make up anything we want, so long as the Bible does not address it, and claim that it is biblical?

2. The Bible uses the argument from silence in the exact same way that I am using it. The writer of the book of Hebrews clearly says that Jesus could not function as a priest while on earth (Heb. 8:4). So we ask why could Jesus not function as priest while He was here on earth? The answer is because the Lord was from the tribe of Judah, and the law “said nothing” (i.e., was silent) regarding priests from Judah (Heb. 7:14).

3. God has not been silent about His silence. The Bible, God's Word, warns us not to go beyond that which has been written:

“I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may ‘be puffed up in favor of one against another’(1 Cor. 4:6, ESV).”

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4. There are occasions when the argument from silence is appropriate during logical debate. Likewise, there are occasions when it is inappropriate during logical debate. The key is to be able to recognize which type is appropriate and which is inappropriate.

For example: It is an inappropriate use of the argument from silence to claim that because Paul never mentions the virgin birth of Christ that he was ignorant of it. The reason this is an inappropriate use of the argument from silence is that there may well be other reasons why Paul does not mention the event. It is possible that he may have not considered it important to his line of reasoning. Likewise, it is possible that he referred to it in texts that have now been lost (and no I am not arguing for an open canon here). However, the argument from silence is not fallacious if it is used to prove that Paul may have been ignorant of the virgin birth of Christ. We are certain that Paul knew of Christ’s resurrection because he mentions it. However, because he never mentions the virgin birth it is not certain that he knew of it. Therefore, it is reasonable to say that he may have been ignorant of it.

It is not inappropriate to acknowledge that God’s word does not use the phrase “slain in the Spirit,” and that there are no Scriptures that support the idea that SITS does indeed happen to anyone during either NT times or today.

[ March 10, 2006, 07:26 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

I posted it once, but for you Ray, I will post it again:

2 Kings-13-21 And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.

It always amazed me that when the bones of Elisha were touched, the dead man came back to life! Awesome Power!!!

Happy reading.

Tam

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What does a dead man being raised back to life have to with SITS? The two things are not even remotely similar or connected. There is no correlation between the quoted passage and the doctrine you are trying to support. So you'll have to find another proof text.

Originally posted by music4Him:
Like I said pull out your scripture to prove "SITS" (as you all like to call it) don't happen. Context, context, context. At least I found scripture supporting the concept.

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See the second half of my reply to Tam (two posts above).

And... sorry but you did not find Scripture that supports the concept of SITS. What you did was take a bunch of passages of Scripture out of context and force your presupposition upon them. However, DHK has done a fine job of pointing out your hermeneutical and Theological errors in each example. So you can no longer claim that your proof texts have been ignored. On the contrary, they have been examined in their full context and your interpretation/conclusions have been soundly refuted.

Originally posted by music4Him:
Mark 9:26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.

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DHK replied:

Originally posted by DHK:
Mark 9:17-18 And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit; And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.

Mark 9:20 And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.
--He fell on the ground. Is this being slain in the spirit. This is more akin to the Charismatic movement isn't it? Tell the truth now. Again you failed to read the context. If you were a person possessed with such a violent spirit which caused this boy to:

Mark 9:18 and wherever it seizes him, it throws him down, and he foams at the mouth, and grinds his teeth, and wastes away. (WEB)
--you would fall down too. Is this really being slain in the spirit. He fell down out of exhaustion. Use common sense here.

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I would also point out that the text referenced above (Mark 9:26) is specifically speaking about a case of demon possession. In that quoted verse specifically Jesus has just commanded a demon to leave an afflicted person, when the demon exited the person “fell as dead,” then in the next verse we see Jesus actually touch the person. However, note that when Jesus touches him he does not fall out; rather, he gets up to his feet. The sequence of events is 180 degrees opposite to what proponents of SITS claim happens.

This passage is dealing with a case of demon possession. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the concept of SITS (whereby the Holy Spirit supposedly “blesses” people by coming upon them through the touch of, or a blowing of the breath, by a Charismatic pastor). So what is your point? The two events are not remotely similar or connected. Therefore, you’ll have to find another proof text.

Originally posted by music4Him:
John 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

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DHK replied:

Originally posted by DHK:
They were just confronted by the Messiah who had just claimed that He was deity by uttering the very words that Jehovah uttered to Moses: the Great "I AM!" They were being confronted by God himself. And they knew it. They were startled and fell backward by this new revelation of God to them. If you were an unsaved soldier and had just been confronted by the Lord himself (in the flesh) you would fall backward too. Again you ignore the context. You have no way of putting yourself in the shoes of those soldiers. What exactly did they see when they heard the words of the Lord Jesus Christ?

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I would also point out that Jesus had just spoken the very name of God, YHVH (in Hebrew), which the orthodox Jews from the Temple would have understood as a direct violation of “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain” (Ex. 20:7, ESV). These orthodox Temple Jews may have expected fire to fall from heaven and they were falling over themselves to get out of the way. I can’t prove this, but it is a more likely possibility than claiming that these unsaved persecutors of Christ were being SITS (which you claim is a "blessing" by the Holy Spirit through the touch of, or blowing of the breath by, a Charismatic pastor).

Originally posted by music4Him:
Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

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These two passages have been repeatedly discussed and clearly shown why they can not be used to support SITS. The only way that you can use it to support your claims is to eisegete the text (which Ray, a Charismatic pastor with an advance degree in Theology, agreed is an unacceptable hermeneutical practice that leads to flawed biblical interpretation.) Therefore, you’ll have to find other proof texts.

Originally posted by music4Him:
Dan 8:26-27 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

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In addition to DHK’s refutation above I would ask what does the example of Daniel receiving divine progressive revelation to be included in the Bible have to do with the modern idea of SITS as it has been portrayed here as being a “blessing” of the Holy Spirit that is passed on through the touch of, or the blowing of the breath by, a Charismatic pastor? The two examples have nothing in common with one another except that someone falls over. Are you saying that someone falling over is the sole and driving criteria for being SITS? If that is the case I got SITS 4 times last winter while walking outside in an ice storm.

[ March 10, 2006, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

Did the dudes fall down? Yes they did! Does it say that some were "as dead" leading to the fact they were laying on the ground passed out? Yes it does! In a Charismatic Church when (or have either of you ever been?) notice people falling and laying on the ground when they are prayed for? Thats because God showes up in them in a BIG way. Just the case of the boy that was torn with the demons....what did you exsect for him to do just stand there after the demons were cast out and then say.... "thanks dude I feel ten pounds lighter now that them demons are out of me"? No! I do not think anything has been proven nor that any hermeneutical and Theological errors in each example has been pointed out. Because the fact still remains the poeple fell to the ground and some were as dead men.

DHK said:Yes it was awesome power.
It was awesome power when Christ caused Lazarus to rise from the dead.
It was awesome power when Christ rose from the dead.
Who caused the man who touched the dead bones of Elisha to be revived? Elisha? Elisha's dead bones? I think not!!!!!
It was the power of Christ (God)!

Tam says: Thanks DHK, that was my point exactly! It was the POWER of God that brought him back to life!

Bible Boy said:What does a dead man being raised back to life have to with SITS? The two things are not even remotely similar or connected.

Tam says: It has everything to do with it! It was the POWER of God that raised the dead man.

It is the POWER of God who causes people to be slain in the spirit!

As far as finding scripture you have twisted, let me say this. If I went to the trouble of posting it, you would say that I am the one doing the twisting. But to be fair, it's not just you, there are others with the same doctrine as you, that believe what they say is right, and nothing will change their minds.

Peace,

Tam

[SLIGHT TANGENT] Most of the people I've seen being 'slain in the Spirit' have been pushed over in some form or another eg: preacher shouts "Pray-EE-ze JEEZ-us" with one hand on forehead of prayee and the other behind prayee's back, whilst simultanously giving a big shove with the flats of both hands so that the 'victim' flips backwards onto the floor.

Why is this?

[/TANGENT]

Bible Boy, FYI:

Eisegesis is the approach to Bible interpretation where the interpreter tries to "force" the Bible to mean something that fits their existing belief or understanding of a particular issue or doctrine. People who interpret the Bible this way are usually not willing to let the Bible speak for itself and let the chips fall where they may. They set off with the up-front goal of trying to prove a point they already believe in, and everything they read and interpret is filtered through that paradigm. Stated another way, they engage in what the Bible refers to as "private interpretation".

The way I understand it, it is not adding outside sources to prove your point. But of course we must use ONLY the Bible, and that's what I have done.

I will pray for enlightenment of all who "don't see" that are here on the board.

Working for Jesus,

Tam

Originally posted by music4Him:
Did the dudes fall down? Yes they did! Does it say that some were "as dead" leading to the fact they were laying on the ground passed out? Yes it does! In a Charismatic Church when (or have either of you ever been?) notice people falling and laying on the ground when they are prayed for? Thats because God showes up in them in a BIG way. Just the case of the boy that was torn with the demons....what did you exsect for him to do just stand there after the demons were cast out and then say.... "thanks dude I feel ten pounds lighter now that them demons are out of me"? No! I do not think anything has been proven nor that any hermeneutical and Theological errors in each example has been pointed out. Because the fact still remains the poeple fell to the ground and some were as dead men.

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So like I said...

If falling down is all it takes I got SITS 4 times last winter in an ice storm because I fell down 4 times. I even lay on the ground an did not move for while because of the pain of having my 6'1" 250+ lb. 40 year old frame hitting the ground so hard.

The hermeneutical and Theological problems arise from the fact that the circumstances recorded in the Scriptures do not even remotely correspond to the way you all have explained what being SITS means (i.e. a blessing from the Holy Spirit that come through the touch of, or by the blowing of the breath by, a Charismatic pastor). What you are offering as proof texts do not match the experiences that you all are attempting to justify as being SITS. However, just because someone fell over you all are forcing the idea of SITS upon the Scripture. When one forces an outside meaning upon a passage of Scripture, which clearly does not carry such a meaning when it is being understood in a literal, historical, grammatical manner of reading, one has eisegeted the text. This is a huge hermeneutical problem that leads to flawed biblical interpretations and resulting in the teaching of false doctrines.

It is by all means correct to expect such things as recorded in Mark 9:26 to happen in cases of demon possession because we have clear examples of such experiences happening in Scripture. However, we do not see SITS happening in Scripture that lines up with the experiences of SITS that you all are relating to us. The circumstances, the actions (with the exception of someone falling over), and the reasons why it happened which you all supply do not at all line up with or match the Scriptures that you are attempting to use as proof texts. Why don’t you see a conflict or problem with the fact that your proof texts and actual experiences do not agree (with the exception that someone fell over)?

In the case of the Mark 9 passage the boy’s body had been possessed and ill treated by a demon for a long time. He fell as dead when the demon departed at Jesus’ command. Then Jesus helped the fallen boy to stand. Jesus’ touch did not cause the boy to fall. According to the text the demon’s departing the boy’s body is what caused him to fall (a demonic action caused the fall). However, you all want to say, “See he was slain by the Holy Spirit.” No, he was abused and knocked down by a demon. In effect you are attributing the outcome of a demonic activity to the Holy Spirit. Please think about the ramifications of doing such a thing. What does Christ say about doing this kind of thing?

music4Him,

You only have to pity these people who's leaders have sold them a pile of spiritual demagoguery who are unwilling to let Scripture speak to them anymore. For them there is almost no way back. Their professors have blamed our view on eisogesis of reviewing and exposing the Word to other Christians.

Their teachers have place the Holy Spirit in their conspired gene bottle and told them that God can only minister to Christians within their narrow guide lines. And guess what, they not only believe this, but swallowed it to their own lack of spiritual blessings.

When they realize their denominational leaders are just flesh and bone and make mistakes, they may again study thoroughly the Word of God and allow they Spirit of God to teach them. Until then you are only going to hear their 'sing song' of exegesis, eisogesis and use the correct hermaneutical tools. They have played the intellectual wild card and the dull of mind have bought their false teachers ideas.

Bible-boy,

Your experience was not 'falling under the power of the Holy Spirit' but was a matter of the law of gravity and being overweight. At age forty you should be able to deal with it. The Apostle Paul probably never had a problem like this because of his constant missionary journeys.

I know the old I get I have to exercise 5 days a week at the gym just to keep my weight at the right level. I still need to lose ten pounds.

When you experience the power of God the Spirit you will become a believer in the concept of being 'slain in the Sprit.' Paul and John in their epistles did not need to tell us of their experience, but they did not deny it either.

Regards,
Ray

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

DHK said:Yes it was awesome power.
It was awesome power when Christ caused Lazarus to rise from the dead.
It was awesome power when Christ rose from the dead.
Who caused the man who touched the dead bones of Elisha to be revived? Elisha? Elisha's dead bones? I think not!!!!!
It was the power of Christ (God)!

Tam says: Thanks DHK, that was my point exactly! It was the POWER of God that brought him back to life!

Bible Boy said:What does a dead man being raised back to life have to with SITS? The two things are not even remotely similar or connected.

Tam says: It has everything to do with it! It was the POWER of God that raised the dead man.

It is the POWER of God who causes people to be slain in the spirit!

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Tam,

The problem is that none of you have demonstrated from the objective truth of the Scriptures that SITS actually happens in the exact same way that your subjective personal experiences describe it happening. So the things that we have here are (1) a biblical example of the power of God to raise a dead man to life again (in the text you reference), and (2) then the other is simply your assertion that SITS is the power of God without any corresponding biblical support.

[ March 10, 2006, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

Bible Boy, FYI:

Eisegesis is the approach to Bible interpretation where the interpreter tries to "force" the Bible to mean something that fits their existing belief or understanding of a particular issue or doctrine. People who interpret the Bible this way are usually not willing to let the Bible speak for itself and let the chips fall where they may. They set off with the up-front goal of trying to prove a point they already believe in, and everything they read and interpret is filtered through that paradigm. Stated another way, they engage in what the Bible refers to as "private interpretation".

The way I understand it, it is not adding outside sources to prove your point. But of course we must use ONLY the Bible, and that's what I have done.

I will pray for enlightenment of all who "don't see" that are here on the board.

Working for Jesus,

Tam

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Then your understanding of the term is flawed. No one said anything about using an outside source (such as a Bible Commentary or other book written by a Theological Scholar). Doing so would simply demonstrate that other Theologians and well respected Bible interpreters have agreed with your position. There is nothing wrong with doing this after you have done the hard work of exegesis for yourself. However, what I said, and what the definition you supplied above says, is that it is improper to force your existing belief or understanding onto the text of Scripture. How does one do this? By taking a passage of Scripture, usually out of context, and adding in other outside words, definitions, and/or meanings into your interpretation in order to force the biblical text to say what you want it to say so that you can justify a presupposed doctrinal position. When one does this it is called eisegesis. You can never make the Bible say what it never said in the first place.

[ March 10, 2006, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:
It always amazed me that when the bones of Elisha were touched, the dead man came back to life! Awesome Power!!!

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Many years ago I worked with a man who wore a bracelet. He wore that bracelet because at one time he died and woke up when they got ready to put him in a body bag.

Not too many years ago there was a man on the news who died and woke. I think he woke up when they were getting ready to do an autopsy. He was interviewed on TV.

The greatest power comes when God changes a person's life from the inside out.

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Bible-boy,

Your experience was not 'falling under the power of the Holy Spirit' but was a matter of the law of gravity and being overweight.

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But how do you know it was not because of the power of the Holy Spirit? According to the line of argumentation being used by music4Him all that has to happen is for someone to fall down. I fell down 4 times in one day last year. What makes my subjective experience any different than what you all have described without objective Scriptural support to validate the claims?

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
At age forty you should be able to deal with it. The Apostle Paul probably never had a problem like this because of his constant missionary journeys.

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You mean you don’t think Paul ever fell down because he was regularly on mission trips? That’s funny because I have been on mission to Africa 4 times, to eastern Europe once, and all over the southeastern U.S. and yet last year I fell 4 times while walking on ice.

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
I know the old I get I have to exercise 5 days a week at the gym just to keep my weight at the right level. I still need to lose ten pounds.

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Thanks for the exercise tip. I used to exercise everyday for at least an hour up until last fall when I started having problems with the arches in my feet. However, I have now gotten myself some of those “WalkFit” arch supports and my feet don’t hurt anymore. So now that spring has just about arrived I’ll get back on my schedule. I also watch what I eat, generally only organic foods, and lots of fiber to help keep my cholesterol in check. But none of this has anything to do with SITS so let’s stick to the subject.

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
When you experience the power of God the Spirit you will become a believer in the concept of being 'slain in the Sprit.' Paul and John in their epistles did not need to tell us of their experience, but they did not deny it either.

Regards,
Ray

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So again we are back to the idea that we can make up whatever we want and call it biblical so long as the Bible does not address the issue (or experience as the case may be)? Come on Ray…


[ March 10, 2006, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

By music4Him:
No they were not dealt with they were swept under the rug so if its ignored then you won't have to deal with it. You all asked for scripture to support SITS it was posted in good faith. If you want to say thats not what happened the rip it from you bible.

Where is the scripture to back up your claims that it can't happen?

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I dealt with them, and since your post DHK has given a longer explanation....and in typical SITSist style you place your experience over what the Bible actually says.

By tamborine lady:
Well, I and others have posted how and why it happens, and the rest of you pay no attention. So I'm not going to keep posting it just to have it ignored!

Show us scripture that says it can't happen!!

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Sadly though the hows and whys you and others have posted in no way match the Biblical events you post to support it. For Music and Tam, the Scriptural proof that it doesn't happen is the fact that SITSists twist Scripture to try and make it say that it does happen. As far as I know the "Did God really say" line comes from only one source...

By music4Him:
Like I said pull out your scripture to prove "SITS" (as you all like to call it) don't happen. Context, context, context. At least I found scripture supporting the concept.

Did the dudes fall down? Yes they did! Does it say that some were "as dead" leading to the fact they were laying on the ground passed out? Yes it does! In a Charismatic Church when (or have either of you ever been?) notice people falling and laying on the ground when they are prayed for? Thats because God showes up in them in a BIG way. Just the case of the boy that was torn with the demons....what did you exsect for him to do just stand there after the demons were cast out and then say.... "thanks dude I feel ten pounds lighter now that them demons are out of me"? No! I do not think anything has been proven nor that any hermeneutical and Theological errors in each example has been pointed out. Because the fact still remains the poeple fell to the ground and some were as dead men.

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Hallelujah! You are dead right music4Him, who cares if they were thrown down by a demon, as long as they end up having carpet time right? Lord just knock me down and call me the walls of Jericho...

You found Scriptures that say people fell over, and in a display of typical SITSian Biblical dishonesty you twist the passage to try and make it support SITS. None of them do.

You claim SITSism in the charismatic church is "God showes up in them in a BIG way..." then add immediately after "Just the case of the boy that was torn with the demons...." Didn't you read anything in the passage apart from the falling over? Context! Context! Context! Context!

In Mark 9:17 a man brings his son to Jesus because his son has an evil spirit that makes him mute. 9:18, he describes how the spirit (remember, this is an evil spirit, not the Holy Spirit) throws his son to the ground in fits. 9:20, when they bring the boy to Jesus the evil spirit throws the boy to the ground in a convulsion. 9:25, Jesus commands the evil spirit to come out. 9:26, the evil spirit gives the boy one more violent shake and comes out of him. 9:27, Jesus takes the boy by the hand and lifts him up.

If you use that passage as justification for SITSism, then what does that make the source of the falling over? Demonic activity! Considering the way SITSists are treating the Bible on this topic that seems to be the most probable cause of the activity today.

Pete
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If you use that passage as justification for SITSism, then what does that make the source of the falling over? Demonic activity! Considering the way SITSists are treating the Bible on this topic that seems to be the most probable cause of the activity today.
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Yep true but notice verse 27.....
Mark 9:27
Jesus takes the boy by the hand and lifts him up.

Now whats so wrong with getiing rid of the demons that run our lives.... when Jesus will be the one picking us up after they are gone.

Jesus lifts him up.
But he was "slain by a spirit," a demonic spirit. That is the definte teaching of that passage. Jesus was able to "Lift him up because he first cast the demon out of him. He was slain by a demon. The conclusion: Being slain by the spirit is being slain by demons. If we exegete Scriptures the same way that Charismatics do, this is the only proper conclusion that we can come to.
DHK