Being Slain in the Spirit? Part Two

eloidalmanutha,

'If we look at Paul's and John's experience carefully, I don't think we can see any similarity between what happened to them and what is known today as "slain in the spirit".

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Typically, being "slain" today is brought on by a touch, a shout, or by blowing. The intendee falls backward and is usually caught and laid down. Often women's legs are covered so as to be discreet. Although there are more "violent" "slayings" - this is the typical manner in which one is "slain in the spirit".

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In contrast, Paul fell before Jesus as did John. They were fully conscious and "fell" before Him in fear. It was a direct revelation of Jesus to these men, not a "Holy Ghost moment". They both beheld the Glory of God.

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If we look at the account of the soldiers when they fell backwards and again at the resurrection when they were as dead men, there was no spiritual experience - in other words, they were not looking to "receive something from God". I believe if you compare these occurances, they could be compared to the judgment of God for what they were doing to Jesus. If you look at "falling backward" situations in the OT, they indicate judgment.

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Let's look at the context of the soldier giving witness:

Luke 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the Holy Place was torn in the middle.
46 And crying with a loud voice, Jesus said, Father, "into Your hands I commit My spirit." And saying this, He breathed out the spirit.
47 And seeing the thing happening, the centurion glorified God, saying, Truly, this Man was righteous.
48 And all the crowd arriving together at this sight, watching the thing happening, beating their breasts, they returned.

It appears that it was a terrifying experience, for the people present beat their breasts and so the centurian glorified God by recognizing the validity of Jesus at His death, not when He was arrested.

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Berrian, Th.D.

 

Bible-boy,

I understand you are a Baptist and they have taught you certain theological thoughts. My Dad was saved in a Baptist Church and understand their teachings.

By using the word, judgment, I meant as in John 16:8 that the Holy Spirit convicts people of sin, righteousness and the coming judgment.

You need to get out of your "Law of Non-contradiction" mode and study the Word as the Lord gave it and not necessarily within your narrow denominational views. Your denomination is not going to get you to Heaven.

You have such a stilted view of the Holy Spirit. He can function and minister to bring us joy, sorrow, or anything else He wishes to do. It might be spiritual joy or as I have explained in my situation it was like the Lord pouring His 'liquid love' into my soul. You are dead in the water wrong that it was psychological. It was as real as you. I know how some guys like you do not think God gives spiritual dreams or visions in this age. So much for what you have been wrongly taught. I am sure there are other readers on this board who will affirm a similar experience in their Christian lives.

You said that God does not say that Saul had liquid love poured into his soul, and neither does God say Saul was riding on a horse as DHK tried to slide in on us. Neither did it say that Saul was travelling north, east, south or west. The Lord cannot include all the details that you might have wanted Him to include. We can, however, conclude that from reading Scripture that what happened to Paul and the Apostle John is similar to those of us who have been intercepted by the mighty power and ministry of the Holy Spirit.

The Bible College that I graduated did not believe or allow for people to speak in tongues or the 'interpretation of tongues.' My denomination never called for any particular spiritual experience other than receiving Christ as Savior. I hope this clears it up for your mind, once for all.

What the Lord did in my life He sovereignly did and He did not ask me if I wanted a certain experience in faith. He was totally sovereign in His action in my life.

Have you ever heard a great message from a pastor in English that blessed your heart or life? You probably will always remember that sermon. This also is the working of the Holy Spirit in your life. Look for His blessings and you will experience more of Him.

 

More than anything, I pray that in some way these words will reach into your heart. As a former charismatic who fully embraced "the move of the spirit" in tongues, manifestations, being slain in the spirit, laughing, weeping, jerking, shaking, and the multitude of experiential occurances within that whole venue - I found myself deep into an emotional and physical religious experience that I felt must be God.

I spent a good deal of time searching it out, wanting desperately to "feel" God and thereby have experiences that I believed should be the norm of one's relationship with God. Without the experiences I felt that I was missing out and believed that if one was not experiencing these conditions their spiritual life was lacking in faith and trust in God.

I came to understand this "doctrine" based on the teachers that I went to for understanding, and believed in their "superior spirituality" and knowledge as unerring truth. When I read the Bible, it seemed as though what I was reading helped to support those teachings. I came to discover that when you are "under" a teacher spiritually, or a theology, then you will in fact perceive the scriptures to line up with that particular bent. That is how deception works.

For those who believe wholeheartedly that there is such a thing as being "slain in the spirit" they are completely persuaded that God's Word will confirm what they see and believe. Exegesis of the Word will not tip the scales towards truth, because the only thing that will open the eyes of the blinded is the Holy Spirit.

It is not easy to "come out" of deception. It is a heart rending grievous process that depends on a complete emptying of ones theology, doctrines and traditions and allow the truth of God's Word to cleanse and renew.

The arguments against being slain are excellent. The arguments for being slain are simply the desire to see what is not there - but blindness convinces one that it is. Therefore, the arguments will continue to build on both sides with no reconciliation.

I began to question some of what I believed as I dug into God's Word, but I could not make sense of it all and I was lost treading water most of the time, experience my guide, not the facts. I became uneasy and restless, moving into a different religious venue that still had it's tenacles into the charis movement, but appeared different. I was a theological mess. Then God sent someone in for me.

It was at that point that what was confusion slowly turned into a firm and solid base of God's view of life, not man's. It was a very long, arduous journey - arguing with myself and God, praying for understanding, reading His Word ceaselessly, and all the time guided gently but firmly by His hand through someone He knew I would listen to.

All that said - experiential faith is not faith at all. Jesus said that those who believed but did not see would be blessed. Heb 11:6 tells us that we are to believe that God exists and He will reward us - not by experience, but by knowledge and understanding of Him. It always supposed to be about Him. Not what He does, not how He moves, not by what we see or feel or touch, but by knowing His heart.

Spirituality is not based on feelings or emotions or the glory or the move of God. The NT/Holy Spirit is our teacher. No where do any of the writers even hint that our walk is based on experience. It is contending for the faith. Not on feelings. It is allowing the discipline of God to change us, bring us to our knees, not the ethereal blessing of being slain in the spirit so that God can "stir up our spirit" or so that we can "have a taste of Him" or "feel/see His glory". This is not how a person lives and moves in God.

I find it interesting that the charismatic move has made such huge waves in "christianity". Although the "moves of God" are based on Joel 2 and latter rain theology - Peter clearly said in Acts 2 that Pentecost itself was fulfillment of that passage, yet the charis movement continues to stand on that text for much of its theology of the supernatural move of "God". In fact, the NT tells us that the ONLY signs and wonders on earth will come from the anti-messiah spirit/seducing spirits, not God. It amazes me that people are confused on this.

I know that what I write will probably not be received positively. But I can't help trying. It's the only way I know to reach out, praying that God will move someone's heart to search out the truth.

One internet site really helped me to understand the origins of this move, and how it snow balled into the giant it is today. The articles are well documented and factual, and above all Scripturally supported. It shook me to the core. I pray that in some way, all of you that are embracing tongues, being slain in the spirit, and other manifestations will carefully and open mindedly read what this woman has to say. Please pray that God will open the eyes of your heart.

There are dozens of articles that all interweave to give a complete picture. Please take the time to read all of them. Here are some to start with:

http://www.seekgod.ca/fatherparham.htm

http://www.seekgod.ca/bantu.htm

http://www.seekgod.ca/manifestations.htm

 

eloidalmanutha,

I think your theology is right. Christianity is not exciting, because we should have no feeling one way or another toward the Lord. We could all sit in church like a dried up prune and claim that we know God. That is probably one of the reasons why many youth leave the church because everything is 'cut and dried' before they enter the church door.

My question is when did you get saved? With your shaking, jerking and laughing one might guess that you were not under the power of the Holy Spirit. Only God knows what you had going on in your life. It surely was not of the Lord because Paul cautions that all things in the Christian life should be done 'with decency and in order.'

Your story is not convincing to me in any way. Did you toss in a few more superlatives because you quit your first struggles to find and know Christ?

I hope you have found true faith in Jesus Christ at this point in your life.

Oh, the first paragraph is merely true sarcasm.

In all of our believing in Jesus we must find balance. Praise the Lord some have found it.

Regards to you,
Ray

 

....where to start here....

SITSists need to get out of their "Law of contradicting the Bible is ok because the SITS experience is greater" mode, study the Word as the Lord gave it and not twist the Word to match the SITS experience.

Didn't you agree to Bible-boy's statement regarding the "Law of Non-contradiction" in previous thread?

1 + 1 = 2
1 + 1 = 3497542318¾
Both at the same time.

No, one is true, one is false.

It's the same situation with SITS. The Bible says what happened with Saul and John (1 + 1 = 2), the SITSists however twist the Bible as hard as they can, then squint until they see 1 + 1 = 3497542318¾. It still doesn't.

You continually suggest that Saul's experience was a SITSian "liquid love love love me do you know I love you I'll always be true so pleaseeeee love me do yabba dabba do time"...The only way this description can match the account in the Bible is by the application of a 4 hour liquid LUNCH! If anything Saul's expereince was an example of "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom..."

The Lord has not included ANY of the details that you want Him to include.

Yes, you should conclude

IF you would read the Bible you'ld notice that Saul & John's experiences were not today's SITSism. Saul was not a Christian when he fell (surely a slight problem?), and John was given the vision of what to write in the book of Revelation (..any SITSists want to share their books of the Bible with the rest of us? Someone? Anyone?)

 

Peter,

Sorry, I do not know what SITS means.

God the Holy Spirit does not minister in the same exterior way with every sinner. Paul was blinded on the Road to Damascus. Does this mean that you are not saved because you were not initially blinded?

As in the apostle John's experience many saints have fallen under the power of the Holy Spirit. I, above, all people would never have thought that He would put me down.

As you and I both know the canon of Scripture is closed. When servants of the Lord have an encounter with the Holy Spirit in the way mentioned above, He does not require that we start writing on a scroll a new book of the N.T.

Are all Christians sanctified by the same Providences coming from the Lord? I think you would agree that no is the answer.

So for mere human beings to tell the Lord how He can and does minister in people's lives, is pure foolishness and speculation.

 

Ray wrote:
I think your theology is right. Christianity is not exciting, because we should have no feeling one way or another toward the Lord. We could all sit in church like a dried up prune and claim that we know God. That is probably one of the reasons why many youth leave the church because everything is 'cut and dried' before they enter the church door.

eloidalmanutha:
you make me smile - your post contridicts itself. But let me pick my way through it, anyway.

That church is dried up is not God's problem, it's with christianity. It is one of the reasons that I sought the supernatural - it sure beat singing with my nose stuck in a hymnal

Ray wrote:
My question is when did you get saved? With your shaking, jerking and laughing one might guess that you were not under the power of the Holy Spirit. Only God knows what you had going on in your life. It surely was not of the Lord because Paul cautions that all things in the Christian life should be done 'with decency and in order.'

eloidalmanutha:
I got saved at 16 during my year at a Baptist High School. I did not understand what salvation was, however; until I was 46. It was at that time that I jumped headlong into charis - and yes all the jumping, shaking, jerking, and falling was supposed to be of God. I personally experienced none of it but the falling - however; it was all around me - and violent as well. I observed many people flying through the air crashing into chairs and other people; some were thrown off their feet landing flat on their backs without the aid of catchers; entire sections of people falling every which way in piles; others slithering to the floor in a helpless mess of laughter; jerking and weeping all over the altar; I even saw one pastor run and leap OVER the pulpit and land face down in the baptistry [empty of water, thank God, or he may have drowned]. I saw "dancing in the spirit", singing in the spirit; people "delivered" and running screaming around in and through the church building like they were on fire; I saw people who felt the "fire of God" screaming in agony because "His" flames were racing through they hands and arms; others who claimed the "fire of God" was a warm liquid being poured over their heads, down their arms and body. Those days are still very vivid in my mind. All "of God" they told me. Very exciting. A "move of the spirit" that we dare not quench. We use to call down fire from heaven, sing for revival.

There is nothing decent or in order about charismania.

Ray wrote:
Your story is not convincing to me in any way. Did you toss in a few more superlatives because you quit your first struggles to find and know Christ?

I hope you have found true faith in Jesus Christ at this point in your life.


eloidalmanutha:
When God drew me to His heart at the age of 46, I never stopped seeking Him. I just took at side trip through the devil's playground.

Ray wrote:
Oh, the first paragraph is merely true sarcasm.

eloidalmanutha:
Yet you say you think my theology is right.

Ray wrote:
In all of our believing in Jesus we must find balance. Praise the Lord some have found it.

eloidalmanutha:
You are right, the Christian walk is balance and by the grace of God, and good solid study of God's Word He gives it according to His grace. However; the charis movement is unbalanced because it is completely wrong. It is heresy pure and simple.

 

eloidalmanutha,

I did not know there were crazy people as you wrote about in Michigan. That was not a church that you wrote about above.

It seems strange to me that you were saved at 16 and only returned to the Lord at age 46.

I am glad that you have found stability in your Christian walk. God be praised!

Regards,
Ray

 

Why do you not think it was a church that I experienced these things in? In several churches actually. One was a Kenneth Hagin Holy Ghost conference. And some were Healing and Manifestation Extravaganzas put on by Tim Storey - a protege of Benny Hinn. I saw these things multiple times by numerous charis and word of faith proponents: Jesse Duplanits, Rod Parsley, Joyce Meyer, Schambach and others. It was part of the entire venue. It was what we waited for in line for hours outside waiting for the doors to open up to. The Holy Spirit on flesh what flesh could not do. It was wild and violent. I truly believed that I was called to be like Tim - that I would have the same kind of ministry. Someone gave me words to that affect once. But God had other plans, may His Name be praised.

It was not strange at all to be saved and not understand. Thousands do not understand. I was born and raised in the church. Getting saved at 16 only got my foot in the door. I did not give my life over to God because I was never taught that I should, even though I served in the church, taught, sang, worked in mission outreach - I was extremely dedicated. When I "found Him", I sought for the supernatural and I found it. It just wasn't God. But He won in the end and now I am on the right path, by His grace alone.

 

I heard a most wonderful sermon by Joyce Meyer last night. She was great.

As to Rod Parsley I somehow sense in my spirit that he comes through to me a too harsh in his preaching. Maybe this is just my feeling about the man. I do believe these two are saved pastors.

Understand, I do not sit in judgment of people as readily as some of you brethren. I have enough to watch over my own life rather than sitting on an alleged throne of God judging other Christian brethren. It is only in Revelation that He will give some power, in the future, to judge other human beings.

I John 4:2 and John 3:16 is the Lord's criterion as to whether people, including men and women of God who preach, are saved or unsaved.

 

eloidalmanutha,

My evalutation of your early life and salvation at age 16 until your mid 40's is that you were saved through that period of time, but did not sense the full assurance of faith that you should have understood. My backing for what I am saying is found in Hebrews 10:22.

If I saw all the 'carrying on' that you experienced I would have visited Bible believing churches until I found one that I sensed preached the truths of the Word of God--the Bible.

My guess is that 'wild quasi-church' that you attended did not tell you to hate Jesus.

 

I was not saved. Salvation is just not asking Jesus to come into your heart. Salvation is accepting Jesus as Lord, as the Son of God come in the flesh to die for my sin - a free gift of grace and faith. In acceptance of that gift, the complete sacrifice of one's life to the will and purpose of God. That I never did.

It was not just one church, but several that I attended - they were all the same. As long as it was "the flow of the spirit" it was considered of God. There was nothing too dramatic or violent and OT scriptures were given as well at NT ones for "proof texts". If you did not go along with this "move" you were considered not part of the bride of Christ.

I grew up in a traditional church and attended full time for all of my 46+ years. Why would I go back to boredom, when every sunday, wednesday, and countless services in between I could the witness manifestation of the "spirit" in such a way? I truly believed it was of God. Of course I was not taught to hate Jesus Christ, it was another Jesus that was taught and worshipped - the jesus of seducing spirits - although that was never discerned - everyone believed it was the same Jesus - that is how deception works.

 

quote by eloidalmanutha:
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In fact, the NT tells us that the ONLY signs and wonders on earth will come from the anti-messiah spirit/seducing spirits, not God. It amazes me that people are confused on this.
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Is this how all Baptist feel?
BTW, I somewhat recall the scriptures that you are speaking of. Please post them

 

eloidalmanutha said: I truly believed that I was called to be like Tim - that I would have the same kind of ministry. Someone gave me words to that affect once. But God had other plans, may His Name be praised.


Tam says:

Possibly it was God that called you, but "men" had different ideas. so you were never given the chanch? That happens a lot!!

So maybe now you just feel hurt and have decided that God didn't mean it?

Selah,

Tam

 

SITS = "Slain in the spirit" acronym, saves getting blisters when typing and bandwidth

(I thought context would have explained it, but I forgot you aren't that great with context now and then (sorry mate, the line was there I had to use it ))

Haven't we been through this part?

Does God treat Christians and non-Christians the same? Did He give the Israelites the plagues at the time He gave them Egypt?

If you saw a snake eat another snake while you were having a glass of red cordial and listening to Kermit say something funny on Sesame Street as a couple of flies buzzed around your head, would you then try to identify with Pharaoh and say it's a sign that God raised you up to show His power through it?

Probably not, but you are doing a similar thing with what happened to Saul. Saul wasn't saved at the time he fell. SITSism trying to claim Saul's experience as a proof text is just as valid as someone claiming God is going to do something great if they get a few similarities between themselves and Pharaoh.

Let's compare Pharaoh and Saul's remarks. In Exodus 5:1 Moses and Aaron go to Pharaoh with God's command. Now what is his response in 5:2? "Who is the LORD, that I should obey him and let Israel go? I do not know the LORD and I will not let Israel go." Fast forward a couple of thousand years or so later and we get to a man on the road to Damascus. In Acts 9:4 (I know you know where that verse is) Saul falls and the Lord asks "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?". Saul's response in the very next verse is of course "Just as I am without one plea, guide me o Thou Great Jehovah, thank you for your liquid love! Fill! Fill! Fill! More! More! More!...." ....wellllllllll....no, Saul asks right there in Acts 9:5 (which is the verse following Acts 9:4 in most Bibles) "Who are you, Lord?"

How about we do this part the way my optometrist does. Look at "Who is the LORD...I do not know the LORD" with your left eye, and "Who are you, Lord?" with your right eye, and tell me the differences The only difference between the two men at that stage is one talked about God and the other talked to Him.

Why claim an experience of a non-Christian as something for God's people? If Saul's fall was SITSism does this mean today's SITSists aren't saved when they fall?

10/10 for trying, but sorry, SITSism is not "as in the apostle John's experience..." Are chapters Revelation 2-22 in your Bible?

Now THIS is interesting...We finally agree on something mate, the canon is closed

However IF people are having an "encounter with the Holy Spirit in the way mentioned above", then writing a new scroll/book would have to be a result of it. As Saul wasn't a Christian when he fell the only possible candidates for SITS proof texts left are Ezekiel & John.

Ezekiel saw visions of God (Eze 1:1) and fell facedown (Eze 1:28), however he is too embarrassing for SITSians to mention due to the fact that God tells him to stand up (Eze 2:1) and the Spirit lifts him up (Eze 2:2). The book of Ezekiel of course ends at 2:2...

John...hahaha just scroll up the thread a bit and you'll see what happened to him.

Exactly, so look at what God has said on the topic and not what your experience-coloured glasses would like Him to say.


...to save bandwidth, typing and post lengths I think from now on in the thread I'll use the following codes: 1 = Saul wasn't a Christian when he fell, he didn't know who the Lord was etc. 2 = John wrote Revelation, where is your book etc. 3 = We won't talk about Ezekiel because he is too embarrassing, but God still told him to stand, the Spirit lifted him up, and he wrote Ezekiel etc. 4 = Stop Scripture twisting.

...and I'm way out of Graemlins, so add a grin and wink here.

 

I don't think you have been reading my posts. It was NOT God - it was a seducing spirit. Tim does not operate in the power of God. It's the same spirit that is in/on Benny Hinn - not God Benny is into mysticism and nemocracy - that is not God.

 

It's a matter of Biblical statements, not denominational bent. Jesus said that because of them, even the elect were in fear of falling away.

Signs and wonders scripts:

2 Thes 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only he is holding back now, until it comes out of the midst.
8 And then "the Lawless One" will be revealed, "whom" "the Lord" "will consume" "by the spirit of His mouth," and will bring to nought by the brightness of His presence. Isa. 11:4
9 His coming is according to the working of Satan in all power and miraculous signs and lying wonders,
10 and in all deceit of unrighteousness in those being lost, because they did not receive the love of the truth in order for them to be saved.
11 And because of this, God will send to them a working of error, for them to believe the lie,
12 that all may be judged, those not believing the truth, but who have delighted in unrighteousness.

Matt 24:11 And many false prophets will be raised and will cause many to err.
23 Then if anyone says to you, Behold, here is the Christ! Or, Here! Do not believe.
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise up. And they will give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.

 

A critical spirit about other Christians who declare they love the Lord is not of the Holy Spirit either. This spirit comes from the evil one along with pastors who "down" other Christian believers. We are told by the Lord to love the brethren.

It does not take brains and since some of you do not have the 'gift of discernment' (as in the gifts of the Spirit) I cannot figure how you can say for sure that Pentecostals have 'seducing spirits.'

This is not rocket science, friends.

 

Luke 9-49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Shouldn't we just follow what Jesus said?

Peace,

Tam