Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
God the Spirit not only comes to bless His people but also in judgment in the lives of sinners. This explains the soldiers who were in the Garden of Gethsemane; yes they felt the judgment of Jesus Christ in communion with God the Father and the Holy Spirit. We do not know for sure but at the Cross one of the centurions suggests to us that he was so moved by Jesus’ death that he probably became a real believer in Christ.
Hello Ray,
My, my you just keep diggin that eisegetical hole!
As I read through the entire NT I can not find a passage of Scripture that supports the idea that:
“God the Spirit not only comes to bless His people but also in judgment in the lives of sinners.”
However, what I do find is that the NT consistently speaks only of a coming day of judgment (e.g. always in the future tense; see Matt. 10:15; 12:36; Rom. 2:2-5; 13:2; 14:10; 1 Cor. 11:31; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Pet. 2:9; and Jude 6). However, the clearest passage that addresses this issue states,
“Just as it is appointed for man to die once and after that comes the judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him” (Heb. 9:27-28, ESV). Clearly, there is coming a day of judgment some time in the future either after we are dead or following Christ’s second coming for those who are alive when He returns. The Bible does not teach, as you claim, that the Holy Spirit draws near to us for judgment of sinners in this life.
Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
If you mean reverential fear you are right. In your statement above you are saying that God the Father and the Holy Spirit were not included in this event. In this case you would be totally wrong.
I have demonstrated to you numerous times that it is not a rejection of traditional orthodox Christian Trinitarian Monotheism to acknowledge that only the Exalted Christ was manifested in these texts. Is He part of the Triune Godhead? Yes, by all means. However, do these two texts say that all three members of the Triune Godhead manifested their presence at that specific time? No, only the exalted Christ. Your point has been soundly refuted so please stop throwing it out as if it solves the problems of the eisegetical manner in which you are handling these texts.
Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Again, if you have deceived yourself into thinking that those in your above paragraph did not have a spiritual encounter with the Godhead, you are seriously in error. As to the O.T. you are probably right; but are you still living under the covenant of the Law or Grace coming from Jesus Christ?
First, let me say that I have given background material from Acts and Revelation chapter one which indicates that God the Spirit still ministers to some people by overpowering them with His mighty power.
Of course the soldiers and guards had a spiritual experience. However, that is not the point of the discussion, nor is it the point that you all are trying to demonstrate by using those passages as proof texts for being slain in the Spirit. It is your claim that when one is “slain” it results in some type of blessing for the person. The texts you are talking about here never indicate that anyone was blessed by the experience. Therefore, the texts do not support your basic premise. Now I know that this is where you will want to jump to the argument that, “the Holy Spirit also can draw near for the purpose of judgment…” However, keep in mind that the NT does not teach such a thing (see Heb. 9:27-28 and all the other passages I referenced above).
Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
When I was in Bible College I was simply praying with about four of my fellow-students when I felt His Presence coming toward me from the upper right corner of the ceiling. I never spoke in tongues nor was I asking the Lord to slay me in the Spirit, though we all knew this happens at times to some Christians. It felt like a soft fluffy pillow pushed me over and I could not get up. I was conscious of giving prayerful praise to Him and it felt like the Lord poured ‘liquid love’ from Himself into my life. I remember asking the Lord to allow this to happen to me at least one more time before my physical death. To date it has not happened again. But, I believe He did this to me because He knew I was called to become a pastor for mega years and He wanted me to understand His most powerful hand which He sovereignly ministered in my life. I had nothing to do with it. We are dealing with serious things when we proclaim His Gospel unto salvation and eternal life. This was His message to me.
Your story here does not line up with what we see taking place in the very texts that you try to use to justify being slain in the Spirit (Acts 9 and Rev. 1). First, those texts do not say anything about anyone being blessed by the experience. Furthermore, when Paul was struck blind and fell down on the Damascus road he remained blind until the Lord sent a believer to lay hands on him and deliver a message to him that the Lord sent him to restore his sight. Being suddenly struck blind does not sound like much of a blessing does it? Likewise, if it was such a blessing why did the Lord remove it from Paul and why don’t we see Paul ever asking for it back again? Second, Paul never testifies that his experience on the Damascus road was a blessing to him and he certainly never describes it as feeling like “liquid love.” Third, you did not receive divine progressive revelation of God’s Word that you were to record for inclusion into the Bible.
I am not trying to say that you did not have some type of experience here. Clearly you did. However, I think you have rightly explained (or given a hint) as to why and when it happened to you. Is it at all possible that you had a very deep and very real psychological experience because you knew that you were preparing for the ministry in a church/denomination that expects one to have such experiences? Thus, lending greater credibility to your “calling” into the ministry? What I mean is say I'm a member of your church, and you are preaching to me all about a deeper Christian Life that comes as a result of being slain in the Spirit. Now after the service I come to you and ask you if you have been slain in the Spirit and you tell me that you have not. How is that going effect the way I listen to you in the future since you are supposed to be my spiritual mentor and teacher?
Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
I agree with your last section fully. As you pointed out the centurion glorified God which means that this soldier became a true believer in Jesus our Lord. If this centurion is the same soldier who was in the garden, he had his first encounter with Jesus there, which later led to his hope of everlasting life by his declaration of faith while standing near to the Cross of crucifixion.
Here’s a bit more of your eisegesis posited as possibility. However, you need to go back a read the texts again. In John 18:3 we see that Judas procured a band of soldiers and some officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees. So who were the men who made up the mob at came after Jesus in the garden? Luke gives us a better understanding of their identity, “The Jesus said to the chief priests,
captains of the temple, and the elders who had come to Him” (Luke 22:52, NKJV). Clearly these “soldiers” were Jewish Temple Guards.
Now look at the text surrounding the crucifixion, “So when the centurion saw what had happened, he glorified God, saying ‘Certainly this was a righteous man!” (Luke 23:47, NKJV). A centurion was a professional officer of the Roman army. Centurions commanded a
centuria (or century, often not a hundred men but rather 80, generally between 30 and 160 soldiers and noncombatants). Clearly, the men in the garden were Jewish Temple Guards and not Roman soldiers. Therefore, the two passages can not be speaking about the same man (the one who glorified God).
You agreed that eisegesis was an unacceptable hermeneutical method and that it leads to improper exposition and flawed biblical interpretation. However, when the tried and true hermeneutical method of exegesis results in a conflict with your predetermined belief system you chuck it (exegesis) out the window so that you can maintain and embrace your presupposition regarding this issue.
Your stated belief in the principles of hermeneutics and the practical working out of your Theological position on this issue do not agree. You have given intellectual assent to the principles of sound hermeneutics and solid exegesis. However, when they result in a conflict with your presupposition on this issue you embrace eisegesis. This is a violation of the Law of Non-contradiction (to which you also previously agreed), and as such makes your entire line of argumentation here invalid.
So please either provide Scripture that supports your position, without depending on eisegesis, or acknowledge that it is a false doctrine that should not be embraced.
[ February 11, 2006, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]
